What would you Change the US Assault rifle to

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HK 416 in 6.8. There are few other rifle designs out there that match the AR in ergonomics, weight, and accuracy. The piston system would end the "s**ts where it eats" debate and 6.8 would end the poodle shooter name calling.

As I mentioned in an another thread, some guys in my unit did a head to head test of a standard M4A1 versus four HK 416 uppers, shooting 62 and 77 grain ammunition. The M4A1 was a bit under a 2 MOA weapon. The 416s were not quite able to do 4 MOA. This has prompted some head scratching as to whether the issue is something inherent to the 416 design, or some corner HK may have cut (issues with the HK barrels seems to be the leading theory).

Anyway, the 416 might provide higher reliability under high round counts, but at present, it looks like it is not without its own drawbacks.

Now, 6.8 Rem SPC, is nice. Smaller magazine load and smaller basic load carried, but not that much smaller, and more thump on personnel and better barrier penetration. The pluses don't offset the minuses on the logistics side in the real world, but it's probably the best game in town if we were going to replace 5.56mm (which does not seem likely anytime soon).
 
Hauptmann,

Thanks for the post. Very informative. I suspect that the relatively long 6.5 bullets don't tumble. I'd be interested to see how short bullets like the 100 and 108 gn 6.5 bullets do. Lapua offers a 100gn FMJ that should be an ideal test subject for ballistic gelatin. Such a bullet could be driven at fairly high velocity from rounds like the 6.5, while heavier, more stable and very high BC 6.5 buylets could be reserved for the 6.5 'special ball'. Consider that the current M118LR uses the 175gn SMK, so the 123gn or 142gn 6.5 SMK would be as 'Hague-proof' as that bullet.

Like the 6.5 Grendel, I looked at the 6.8 for areas of improvement. I approached it from a couple of different directions. First, I wanted to see what would happen if the 6.8 SPC used a 0.452 case head rather than the 0.422 of the 30 Remington. The 7.62x45 was the parent cartridge. I altered the case so that body taper and shoulder angle matched the 6.8 SPC. The resulting cartridge gave a 200fps advantage over the original 6.8 at the cost of three rounds in a standard sized magazine (25 vs 28)

In the second case, I wanted a 6.8 that would allow the use of 130gn bullets for hunting applications. The same 7.62x45 parent case was used, but OAL was reduced resulting in the 6.8x40mm This cartridge still out-peforms the 6.8 SPC by about 150 fps but also allows for the loading of 130gn bullets in an M16 magazine giving a dual hunting/combat use.

6.8s.jpg
 
1. Why is it really all that important to retain the AR-15 platform? We've officially changed the service rifle three times in the last century. Even though I really don't see any incredible leaps of performance above the AR platforms, save perhaps the idea of the gas/piston systems, it shouldn't really be all that difficult to switch.

The main real-world argument is the billion dollar price tag for fielding a replacement.

The main argument in a hypothetical situation is perhaps not that we necessarily need to keep the AR-15 pattern rifle, but that any replacement needs to incorporate the strengths of that rifle, like its modularity and superb control layout. A replacement may bring additional strengths to the table, like a gas piston or whatever, but it needs to keep the existing strengths or build on them.

Not that I'm the first person to have this idea. The SCAR, XCR, and Masada all seem to be built with this basic concept in mind.

2. Why, if we are going to retain the AR-15 platform as our basis, is it necessary to retain the same receiver length? Even if we didn't step up to the AR-10 platform as a basis, why couldn't we just make an AR-style rifle system with an intermediate action length that would accommodate something in-between the 45mm and 51mm cases (say, 48mm?)

The modularity of the AR-15 pattern revolves around the lower receiver. Since the lower receiver includes the mag well, it imposes the main limitation on that modularity.

You could build a lower sized for 7x46 or some other hypothetical round that exceeds 5.56mm OAL, but then you're talking about an entirely new weapon -- like an AR-10, not like a modified AR-15, essentially.

Which is not to say the idea does not have merit, but it's understandable why there's less interest in that than a drop in mod that works on a standard AR-15 lower. Both on the industry side as well as the agency side, it's driven by economics rather than ideal ballistics, but "good enough" has always been the enemy of "best."

3. Although the 6.5 Grendel seems on the face of it to have superior ballistics to the 6.8mm Remington SPC, there seems to be more support for the SPC. Why is that? Other than the fact that the Grendel is a bit ungainly looking, are there significant drawbacks to it?

Basically? Grendel is a target round, 6.8 Rem SPC is a combat round.

Grendel has great ballistics (using pricy bullets, which a military load likely would not) out past 400 meters. Combat doesn't happen there. And it gets them by having a case geometry that sacrifices feeding reliability in favor of high BC bullets. Even a 1% reduction in reliable feeding to get a round that works great at 600 meters is, pretty much, answering all the questions an service round needs to answer . . . wrong.

Rem SPC is geared towards 400 meters and in, where combat does happen. It's optimized to feed reliably in a semi auto or automatic weapon. It's limitations are primarily those forced on it by the AR magwell dimensions, but it's hard to say if this is a bad thing. Ballistics might be better if it was slinging a 130 to 140 grain projectile, but recoil would be increased as well.

4. Judging from the muzzle energy of the .223 Remington (~1300 ft-lb), 6.8 SPC (1750 ft-lb), and 6.5 Grendel (1900 ft-lb) [all from 24 in barrels], it would seem that we should be looking for a round that would produce something in the area of 2000-2400 ft-lbs ME for superior performance in everything from a carbine to an SAW. Why wouldn't we just go with the .243 Winchester, .260 Remington, or 7mm-08 Remington (or a 48mm cased version of any of these)? Any of these would be lighter than the .308 Winchester/7.62x51, which has always been cited as one of the major advantages of the 5.56mm rounds v. the 7.62mm rounds, and should exhibit less recoil (other commonly cited advantage).

Bulk and weight to begin with. Like GunTech said, 7-08 is pretty much just like 7.62x51 in terms of weight and in terms of the bulk it takes up in magazines, etc. Keep in mind that when you're loading up a fighting load on say a humvee or in a Bradley, you get basically double the amount of ammunition for space and weight with 5.56mm that you get with 7.62x51. With anything based on .308 but necked down, etc., you're still getting that halved amount, maybe with some weight savings, but still taking up the same amount of space in the truck/track/whatever. It ain't much different when you look at how many mags a guy can carry on his body armor or LBE or whatever.

What we're looking for is something probably in the 1500-2000 ft-lb range. Most of the guys carrying are going to be carrying a rifle or carbine, not a SAW, and I personally don't think we should be talking about sacrificing rifle/carbine performance to plus up a SAW. A SAW is a bullet hose for squad level suppressive fire, it isn't a medium machinegun, and it should not be built as such if it means taking performance away from the rifle/carbine.

And remember when talking about rifle/carbine performance, we're not just talking about foot-pounds at the muzzle. The weapon's speed of handling, speed back onto target for follow ups and onto additional targets, is as or more important as long as you're getting acceptable thump for lethality. The higher the bullet weight and velocity, the more recoil you get and the less suitable a weapon you've got for real-world combat marksmanship (even if it causes stirs at Camp Perry, etc.). What is ideal for a service rifle/carbine cartridge is just enough lethality to get the job done (how much is "just enough" is the question), but light enough that I can be driving it onto the next guy who needs killing while the first one is still headed to the floor.
 
The main real-world argument is the billion dollar price tag for fielding a replacement.

Given that we're spending that much in Iraq in 4 days, the least they could get for the money is a decent rifle.
 
Simple...keep everything the same (caliber, weapons platform, etc), and use a heavier (62-77 grain) .224 diameter FMJBT bullet constructed like the Expanding Full Metal Jacket (EFMJ) used in Federal handgun ammunition. Of course you would have to take into account the differences in velocity and bullet diameter, but this would be a simple, cost effective solution to the alleged stopping power issues by having an expanding bullet with greater energy transfer, and as a FMJ would comply with The Hague Convention stuff. Also, using a heavier, longer bullet that is still compatible with the 1 in 7 rifling twist will ensure a flatter trajectory for longer range shooting.

Please, no applause :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
EFMJ ammunition would not be legal under the Hague Convention, which prohibits the use of any ammunition that "flattens or expands easily in the human body." EFMJ would be just as prohibited as JHP ammunition.
 
Given that we're spending that much in Iraq in 4 days, the least they could get for the money is a decent rifle.

And that's the main reason why we don't have the money.

Alternately, we could scrap a few F-22 Raptors to buy weapons, magazines, and everything else, but that's not going to happen, either. Sexy legacy programs won't get touched, but money for something like a new rifle to replace a rifle that works? Nope.
 
@ Hauprmann + Guntech

Thank you both for the clarification on the Grendel round characteristics concerns.

I was looking at this as more as a potential medium to long range platform replacement for the 5.56.

As you have said, the inherent characteristics that make it good at range also mitigate against short to medium range wounding.

As a question, would provision of a small air pocket behind the round tip, a la the 5.45x39 round provide the balance betwen stability for "reach out and touch" versus yaw and tumble for traumatic impact ?
 
Isn't it legal to use JHPs for Counter-Terrorism operations? Nowadays, eveybody is a terrorist. Webster defines a Terrorist as one who uses the systematic use of terror as a means of coercion. Isn't that pretty much every bad guy shooting a gun at us? :)

We are using stuff like Mk 262 and M118LR, which use BTHP bullets. What is the difference between using that and using EFMJ ? What is the differenece between the EFMJ and the hollow cored bullet ammunition used by the Russians in the 5.45x39? Both are FMJs, with internal differences designed to increase traumatic impact.

I still think the EFMJ in the 5.56mm is a cost effective and legal solution to all of this changing calibers stuff.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
A foolish man dreams of a sexy new wife. A wise man remembers the hell he went through breaking in the old one.

Absent a major breakthrough, a new rifle is simply going to be the same old story -- adopt it, and find all the flaws that weren't uncovered in testing.
 
I think bullpups are too good to pass up. People have said that the magazine change is awkward, but I haven't heard that from the people who actually used them in combat. I think training can get rid of that deficiency. I'm sorry, but 6-10 inches more of barrel is just too good for me to say "let's stick with what we know". It's not like bullpups are a radical new technology that are unproven or potentially faulty. They've had all the bugs worked out of them. I say we go bullpup. I hate the way they look, but they're just too good to ignore.
 
New cart. I think I've really cracked it this time. I judged that 1500 ft-lbs is probably the ideal power (providing some things) for an assault rifle, so I tried to get that in the most efficient package possible:
5.5mmFirebrandBeta.jpg
5.5mm Firebrand Beta
-Muzzle Velocity: 3000 f/s
-Bullet Weight: 77 gr.
-Muzzle Energy: 1500 ft-lbs
-EPP: 80000 ft-lbs/lb
Note that it is shorter than either the 5.56 or the 7.62x39 cartridges. It recoils only a little bit more than a 5.56.
Crap. The total length of that cart is supposed to be 53.5mm.
 
i always liked the m-16 when i was serving (marines,early 80's) in fact, that's why (and when ) i bought my colt sp1,which i've never had a single problem with. all that's just to show i'm not an AR hater when i say we shoulda switched to the AK thirty years ago !!!!
 
I would like to see a modified beefed up p90 platform. Longer barrel, chambered in the 556 round. I think there is potential there.
 
everallm,

The biggest benefit of the air pocket such as we see in the 5.45x39mm round is that it shifts the weight distribution of the bullet to the rear. I'll have to look at a cutaway of the 5.45, but if you divide the bullet in half you will see that about 80% of the bullet's weight is in the last 50% of the total length of the bullet. This compensates for the need of having a triangular bullet and instead allows for an aerodynamic bullet with rapid upset properties. I don't see any problem in doing this other than the legal questions surrounding it. However, if it isn't manufactured properly there might be some stability problems....then of course durability of the bullet as it is stripped from a magazine and fed into the chamber.
 
This is a trule interesting discussion, regardless of the likelihood of any adoption.

Keep in mind that the M16 is now 50 years old, and there have been some advancements since that time (many of which have been implemented in the M16). I think many people have noted the strengths of the M16, and it's probably not a good idea to start over from scratch, but a couple of though ocurred to my, trying to think like an infantryman.

Light weight. We've seen the weight of the M16 grow and grow with all the add ons. Fortunately, there are solutions. Composites, particulrly composite barrels, whould be able to shave a pound or more off the weight. It's probably possible to make the receivers from high strength composites as well, shedding more weight and reducing production costs.

I recently looked at a titanium bolt carrier. I don't know how this will effect functioning of the M16, but it certainly weight less than the steel part.
 
True. Composites would be good. However, I would say that with composites and titanium, prices would skyrocket. I don't see any chance of adoption that way.
I've said it a billion times, but I feel like I need to say it again, I think that the M16 has run its course. A new, milestone rifle is needed.
 
Any spitzer bullet is base heavy and will tend to flip when transiting media. The problem seems to be with the newer boat tail high BC bullets, where the center of aerodynamic pressure is closser to the center of gravity. Ideally, you want the center of gravity well behind the center of aerodynamic pressure.

An easy way to accomplish this, as well as enhance armor penetration, is to insert a tungsten carbine penetrator into the base of the bullet. This move the center of gravity well back. Further, you can design a thin jacked FMJ with a pronounced canneleure that will fragment in the same manner of the M193. The Germans produced a 7.62x51mm round that had nearly identical properties in this regard, compared to the M193.
 
Nolo, the problem is that no new rifle is going to significantly alter combat effectiveness. This was show 20 years ago with the ACR tests. The rifle is still a point target system that requires a lot from it's operator. That is why the Army is looking at smart projectiles and weapons like the XM-25 and XM-307

Not only has the M16 run it's course, the infantry rifle has run its course. We are getting close to the next thing, in the same way that the bow was supercede by the gun, the rifle will be superceded, probably within our lifetime, by the next thing.
 
GunTech, what do you think of my bullet design, i.e. a tungsten Carbine "nail" in the center of an easily frangible bullet with high ballistic coefficient?
 
That used to be a standard concept for armor penetration. It works fine. But as I noted, if you put the carbide penetrator in the base of the bullet, you make the bullet more unstable when striking tissue. It's also easier to manufacture, as you don't need to worry about getting the penetrator perfectly centered.

As an aside, has anyone tried Barnes MRX bullets against steel targets?
 
I disagree, GunTech. I think that the rifle is far from retirement. "smart" weapons are expensive, cumbersome, and in their infancy (on the infantry level). Rifles will be here to stay, and I think we should look for a replacement for the M16. I think a bullpup, like the SAR-21 in a high-speed 5.56 caliber pushing a 90-grain highly frangible bullet is the answer. Like my 5.56 Firebrand Epsilon. Do you want to have a frangible bullet be unstable?
 
QUOTE
The M4A1 was a bit under a 2 MOA weapon. The 416s were not quite able to do 4 MOA.
END QUOTE

I did not know that about the 416. I am quite happy with my Colt 6920 it is a fairly consistent 1.5 moa gun. Its also reliable. Most soldiers are happy with the M4 despite claims to the contrary.
Pat
 
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