One thing I think this video shows is the need to be aware of your surroundings when you enter a building. Know your exits, recognize cover, etc are all very important. I'm guessing like a lot of cell phone stores space is limited so if you are engaging and moving it needs to be done with a purpose and moving to cover. If I am not aware of where cover is once the robbery begins and I attempt to engage then my chances of survival has reduced significantly IMO.
What would you do
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Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Two suspects entered the store first posing as customers around 1 p.m. They brandished handguns and forced the only two employees and one customer in the store at the time into the back of the store.
As this was happening, two other men entered the store.
-- http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/region...t-mobile-store-in-boca-raton-sunday-afternoon
Two employees. One customer. Four bad guys. NOT good odds. Too little chance all four BGs would be sufficiently distracted at one time for one customer to get anything done without notice from at least one BG. No way to tell how 'nosy' the BGs were going to get if you're the only customer - going through wallet's they'd find a CCW, going through pockets they'd find the pistol, and things would likely go downhill from there.
Getting to the 'herding into the back room' part, that's a line I just wouldn't cross, period. As much as I agitate against starting gunfights, this seems to me (given available information) to be one situation where even the best one could do not to escalate a situation would not be enough. I'd almost certainly have to move for whatever advantage (cover, line of fire away from employees, 'batching' targets) I could get as far as positioning was concerned and do the best I could to get good hits and avoid getting hit from that point on.
As this was happening, two other men entered the store.
-- http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/region...t-mobile-store-in-boca-raton-sunday-afternoon
Two employees. One customer. Four bad guys. NOT good odds. Too little chance all four BGs would be sufficiently distracted at one time for one customer to get anything done without notice from at least one BG. No way to tell how 'nosy' the BGs were going to get if you're the only customer - going through wallet's they'd find a CCW, going through pockets they'd find the pistol, and things would likely go downhill from there.
Getting to the 'herding into the back room' part, that's a line I just wouldn't cross, period. As much as I agitate against starting gunfights, this seems to me (given available information) to be one situation where even the best one could do not to escalate a situation would not be enough. I'd almost certainly have to move for whatever advantage (cover, line of fire away from employees, 'batching' targets) I could get as far as positioning was concerned and do the best I could to get good hits and avoid getting hit from that point on.
My good friend of 40 years has a hair salon right in that plaza. The only thing that possiblly made it an attractive target was thath it was very close to the ramp to 95. That's the only thing I can think of that made it a viable target, but to take that kind of risk it makes no sense for what the reward was. They must have been headed north "out of state" and made a last stop for gas money and whatever they could get, because they obviouslly are all over the walls of every store now, in this state. If you saw the guns you had a chance of stopping it, if you waited then you blew your shot, "so to speak", most people unless they have been nvolved in theses things would not have acted in time. Having stopped 2 car jackings "both armed" while in my porshe as a younger man, I can't say I am as fast now as I was then, but one was 2 men and one was 3. Also a home invasion "where no shots were fired" and 2 in store robberies, where we got them before they could act. But unless you are there and suspect everyone of being a bad guy, you may not have seen anything until it was too late.
My own opinion as I stated earlier is that having almost been killed several times including those I mentioned, is that I can't assume that they will not kill me if I comply. I know of too many cases where the store owner did everything asked,and was shot to death anyway.
My best friends saw this every day on major case squad and robbery homicide. these people are drugged up and unreliable, some just want to shoot their gun, you never know which, I urge everyone to have a safe happy holiday and watch your 6.
My own opinion as I stated earlier is that having almost been killed several times including those I mentioned, is that I can't assume that they will not kill me if I comply. I know of too many cases where the store owner did everything asked,and was shot to death anyway.
My best friends saw this every day on major case squad and robbery homicide. these people are drugged up and unreliable, some just want to shoot their gun, you never know which, I urge everyone to have a safe happy holiday and watch your 6.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
"Batching" targets
Trying to work the angles so multiple targets provide you at least some cover by blocking each other's lines of fire to you, while at the same time narrowing the angle you have to cover yourself. Again, this would be as circumstances permit. If the four BGs spread themselves out, it would make this more difficult if not impossible to do. If they were bunched up, it would be easier.
All this is, is trying to make the best of an already bad situation. There's no way I can see it going all the way in my favor. But going into the back room, or allowing myself to be disarmed, is just not something I'm going to go along with willingly, even outnumbered like that. Yes, it might make the situation worse. It probably will make it worse at least in some ways. But it's bad enough to start with that I'd have to be willing to chance it. That's why I train, that's why I practice, that's why I try to work these things through in my own mind ahead of time, so that cold sensation in the pit of my stomach that happens at times like that doesn't paralyze my mind or my body in the unlikely event something like this does happen to me.
Louis Awerbuck has told a couple of my classes at various times that he won't be with us at our gunfight. That's true in the literal sense, unless of course some BG with a terminally misguided sense of victim selection tries to mug a gun school class on the flat range
. But it doesn't mean I might not hear Louis' voice in my ear again if it ever goes down for real. A friend of mine who used to train SF soldiers in the same organization I used to work for ran into a former student while waiting for a flight out of some FOB or other. The former student told my friend how he had gotten into some difficulty in the middle of a bad situation. How all he could hear was my friend's voice from years before yelling a trademark phrase at him - GET BACK IN THE FIGHT! So he did get back in the fight, and came out of it OK. Stuff like that does happen - that's one of the ways training pays.
Which is why I try and encourage training so much. Lying down and dying will always get you killed. Fighting on might get you out alive.
Trying to work the angles so multiple targets provide you at least some cover by blocking each other's lines of fire to you, while at the same time narrowing the angle you have to cover yourself. Again, this would be as circumstances permit. If the four BGs spread themselves out, it would make this more difficult if not impossible to do. If they were bunched up, it would be easier.
All this is, is trying to make the best of an already bad situation. There's no way I can see it going all the way in my favor. But going into the back room, or allowing myself to be disarmed, is just not something I'm going to go along with willingly, even outnumbered like that. Yes, it might make the situation worse. It probably will make it worse at least in some ways. But it's bad enough to start with that I'd have to be willing to chance it. That's why I train, that's why I practice, that's why I try to work these things through in my own mind ahead of time, so that cold sensation in the pit of my stomach that happens at times like that doesn't paralyze my mind or my body in the unlikely event something like this does happen to me.
Louis Awerbuck has told a couple of my classes at various times that he won't be with us at our gunfight. That's true in the literal sense, unless of course some BG with a terminally misguided sense of victim selection tries to mug a gun school class on the flat range
. But it doesn't mean I might not hear Louis' voice in my ear again if it ever goes down for real. A friend of mine who used to train SF soldiers in the same organization I used to work for ran into a former student while waiting for a flight out of some FOB or other. The former student told my friend how he had gotten into some difficulty in the middle of a bad situation. How all he could hear was my friend's voice from years before yelling a trademark phrase at him - GET BACK IN THE FIGHT! So he did get back in the fight, and came out of it OK. Stuff like that does happen - that's one of the ways training pays.Which is why I try and encourage training so much. Lying down and dying will always get you killed. Fighting on might get you out alive.
I use this target to train for outnumbered critical situations;
http://alcotarget.com/osb/itemdetails.cfm?ID=234
I put them on two tough steel stands and sandbag the stands due to very hard ground. I'm able to train with movement while shooting, figure 15"-18" distance per 0.1sec.
It takes a lot of practice to "engage" all four targets while moving/point shooting. As we know, paper targets don't shoot back, but I'm fortunate enough to practice shooting the heads off slithering rattlesnakes.
If one is to engage multiple felons, then one should train for those events IMO. Having worked in a county that was geographically the area of Massachusetts, and with less than 20 sworn officers/deputies (including Highway Patrol), I learned what it meant to improvise and adapt during dicey situations.
http://alcotarget.com/osb/itemdetails.cfm?ID=234
I put them on two tough steel stands and sandbag the stands due to very hard ground. I'm able to train with movement while shooting, figure 15"-18" distance per 0.1sec.
It takes a lot of practice to "engage" all four targets while moving/point shooting. As we know, paper targets don't shoot back, but I'm fortunate enough to practice shooting the heads off slithering rattlesnakes.
If one is to engage multiple felons, then one should train for those events IMO. Having worked in a county that was geographically the area of Massachusetts, and with less than 20 sworn officers/deputies (including Highway Patrol), I learned what it meant to improvise and adapt during dicey situations.
Isn't that jogging speed?
It is faster than the Bianchi Mover which only moves at 10'/sec
The Bianchi mover is agonisingly slow, each person can time their own speed.
Using the Tueller drill as an example; 21x12÷15=16.8" per 0.1sec.
I thought you were saying that you were shooting while moving at 15"-18" distance per 0.1sec.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone shoot while moving at a sprint and hit anything except by luck.
Hitting a moving target and placing hits while moving require two separate skills
I don't think I've ever seen anyone shoot while moving at a sprint and hit anything except by luck.
Hitting a moving target and placing hits while moving require two separate skills
What is luck for some people could be the fruits of one's labor for others.
From what I saw on the video, I'll attempt to reconstruct the robbery crime scene, albeit with static targets, and practice getting off the "X" in an aggressive manner. Fortunately, I also have a surplus resuscitation Andy to practice with, in addition to paper targets.
Shoot, move, communicate.
That's very true...For some reason I had visions from The Matrix pop into mind
I had my lack of practice brought to light over the weekend in the local IDPA match.
The simulation was engaging two targets at 3 yards, turning and moving along a roll of columns to cover behind the last one and engaging 2 targets (approx 12 yards), partially behind and on either side of a No Shot, from behind the last column..before moving on to another shooting point. The interesting feature was that you could see and engage the targets between the columns on the move and get to the third shooting point faster.
The shots looked very makeable, but proved harder, than they appeared, to perform under time pressure...it was a great example of Crash & Burn. I was able to shoot that portion of the match afterwards and made good shots on both targets
This is the value of shooting in competition...not only against a clock, but in front of observers...it isn't so much practice, but a test of your techniques and ability to perform on demand
Not familiar with the Matrix, but I wish we had an IDPA group nearby, closest matches are a two hour drive one way. I live in an ag/beef area and it's difficult to get a group together for a shoot. Usually a BBQ will bring 50-100 people together and family shooting is part of the local culture, but it's also a time when a few of us with similar backgrounds do live fire team tactics.
Similar to your IDPA match, we'll set up a course of fire that will significantly raise heart rates, including running in loose sand. At the finish of the course of fire there will be be three plastic bottles hanging next to each other on a barbed wire fence. The difficult part is both guys need to shoot the outside bottles at the same time w/o hitting the inside bottle.
As an example, run across a 75 yard wash, including a red zone, with numerous targets, then climb a steep volcanic rock outcropping in heavy brush and take the shots at ~20 yards. Oh, and BTW, remain vigilante for rattlers.
Using the robbery video as a template, we'll set up a course of fire that replicates the scene and time line, then practice 'til we get it right.
FWIW, when I get my riding skills to the appropriate level, I'd like to test my shooting skills on horseback.
Similar to your IDPA match, we'll set up a course of fire that will significantly raise heart rates, including running in loose sand. At the finish of the course of fire there will be be three plastic bottles hanging next to each other on a barbed wire fence. The difficult part is both guys need to shoot the outside bottles at the same time w/o hitting the inside bottle.
As an example, run across a 75 yard wash, including a red zone, with numerous targets, then climb a steep volcanic rock outcropping in heavy brush and take the shots at ~20 yards. Oh, and BTW, remain vigilante for rattlers.
Using the robbery video as a template, we'll set up a course of fire that replicates the scene and time line, then practice 'til we get it right.
FWIW, when I get my riding skills to the appropriate level, I'd like to test my shooting skills on horseback.
Understand about horses, I'll probably hook up with some of the SASS people who shoot from horseback. FWIW, my GSD and I have about 10,000 rounds together including automatic weapons, he sounds like a horse when he's charging.
I haven't been in a mall in years, but I can see the advantages of having a certified service dog to go shopping with, especially if the mall prohibits firearms for honest folk.
I haven't been in a mall in years, but I can see the advantages of having a certified service dog to go shopping with, especially if the mall prohibits firearms for honest folk.
Pismopal
Member
Before anyone buys a firearm...they should first buy a cel phone. Move out of direct harm and using cover make a 911 call (and good luck if you have ever done that)describing what you see and the suspect and vehicle descriptions. Anyone who gets involved in a robbery scene with this scenario should be disarmed for their own good....don't even think about it.
The-Reaver
Member
776.012
776.031
776.041
776.07
776.08
And last but not least.
776.032 The protection. That allows such acts.
Now, Just based off of the intel given. I would think that the other two might change their attitudes after shots have been fired.
776.031
776.041
776.07
776.08
And last but not least.
776.032 The protection. That allows such acts.
Now, Just based off of the intel given. I would think that the other two might change their attitudes after shots have been fired.
Corpral_Agarn
Member
wow...
This is one of the best threads i have read in a while.
Unfortunately i am one of those who hadn't really thought about what i would do if given a situation with 4 BG in a small store.
Also hadn't thought about that "Line" that someone mentioned earlier that makes it "Go Time." I think that is super critical. That line that determines when you let yourself become a victim or not. I am not a fighter (that's why i carry) so for me to determine that line is good to think about.
Most scenarios I have been preparing for include: Mugging with one or two assailants, Mall shooting/active shooter, and home invasion. It is really important for folks to consider the more than 2 BG scenario in somehting like a store or shop.
Thanks Skribs and 9mmEpiphany in particular for the good discussion. I think everyone on THR should read this discussion.
just my .02
This is one of the best threads i have read in a while.
Unfortunately i am one of those who hadn't really thought about what i would do if given a situation with 4 BG in a small store.
Also hadn't thought about that "Line" that someone mentioned earlier that makes it "Go Time." I think that is super critical. That line that determines when you let yourself become a victim or not. I am not a fighter (that's why i carry) so for me to determine that line is good to think about.
Most scenarios I have been preparing for include: Mugging with one or two assailants, Mall shooting/active shooter, and home invasion. It is really important for folks to consider the more than 2 BG scenario in somehting like a store or shop.
Thanks Skribs and 9mmEpiphany in particular for the good discussion. I think everyone on THR should read this discussion.
just my .02
Double Vision
Member
I tend to agree with you.
Funny coincidence, I had a conversation with my adult son the other day and he echoed the same sentiments about not allowing ones self to be kidnapped/captured/held hostage.
A lot of good advice and opinion here about how to respond.
PS - maybe the lesson is to do more shopping on line over the internet rather than on line in a store.
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