What's Wrong with Magazine Disconnects?

[Warp]

I want to dry fire without a magazine in the gun. Seems too easy to end up loading the gun if you have to have a mag in it. Or more likely to think it's unloaded when it's actually loaded sine you are used to seeing mags in even empty guns.

Plus with empty mags locking the slide back, cycling the slide to dry fire repeatedly seems pretty annoying.

And it's another part that could fail or go wrong.

If not for the above, and if it didn't alter trigger pull at all, I wouldn't mind it. It DOES have advantages. For example, if you get into an altercation and may lose possession of the gun, you can drop the mag and it will be much more complex for the other guy(s) to make the gun function. I do see that as an advantage given that the mag disconnect is very difficult to accidentally activate (I have yet to accidentally activate a mag release myself).

 

[CraigAPS]

(I have yet to accidentally activate a mag release myself)

I was wondering this, too. With the amount of training scenarios, dry firing, mag change and un/holster practice, etc. For those who think the possibility of an accidental mag release, how would this be likely given the amount of muscle memory you have likely built up?

 

[Warp]

I was wondering this, too. With the amount of training scenarios, dry firing, mag change and un/holster practice, etc. For those who think the possibility of an accidental mag release, how would this be likely given the amount of muscle memory you have likely built up?

It can, has, and does happen. It does seem to be quite rare, though, especially if using a holster that guards the mag release and if using a firearm with a non-extended, non-competition style mag release intended for a defensive firearm.

*knock on wood* I have been carrying daily for over a decade and haven't had a mag release accidentally yet

 

[GRIZ22]

I see the pluses and minuses of magazine safeties. I don't seek out guns with the safety but having one doesn't mean I won't buy the gun.

Removing a factory safety device can bite you in the butt if something goes wrong.

 

[Capt. Ct.]

I like the magazine to drop free rather than having to pull it out. I removed the mag safety from my Hi-Power and 22/45. Made a slight difference in the trigger also. Neither of these guns are used for carry.

 

[Hanzo581]

I just don't like additional mechanisms added to a firearm. The fewer points of failure the better.

 

[DeepSouth]

I can only speak for me, but

1: I have (rarely) bumped the mag release while pocket carrying, if their's a mag disconnect safety that would make the one shot would have useless in a defense situation.

2: They frequently make dry firing a pain

3: Anything mechanical can break, so the fact I have devise that contributes nothing other than potential problems/failures really ticks me off.

 

[Fast Frank]

There's nothing WRONG with magazine disconnects. I just don't like them, that's all.

It's an attitude thing.

My attitude is like this:

The safety of my handgun is my responsibility, and mine alone. I control where it's pointed. I control if it's loaded or not. I control what touches or doesn't touch the trigger, and when.

If something goes wrong, it's because I failed in some way and allowed it to happen.

Then, somebody comes along and says "Lets make it so the gun is safer automatically!"

Great. Now the gun is safe because of the way I handle it, and even more safer because it safes it's self. Woopie.

My dislike for these things comes from watching people all my life.

I believe people are basically lazy, and while they might go ahead and be super careful with a gun that's automatically safe all by it's self there are some that will just assume that the automatic more safer stuff will protect them.

And then when they just point the gun wherever it happens to be pointing because the magazine is out and it can't fire, then somebody gets shot.

I much prefer to safe my weapon the old fashioned way. I open the action, and look to see that the chamber(Or chambers) is empty. I observe the muzzle, and never point the gun at anything I'm not trying to destroy. I never let my finger or anything else touch the trigger except for when I'm ready to fire it. And I won't shoot it without knowing where the bullet is going to go.

When I do that properly, all those extra self safer gizmos aren't needed.

Having them on the gun isn't really that big of a deal, but since they do absolutely nothing to make a properly handled gun safer and might fool some body into making a deadly mistake by trusting them, I'm going to just go ahead and not like them.

 

[edrice]

I'm probably going to take on a little more strident view than anything I've read so far in this thread.

I've been removing magazine safeties from any firearm I've had since the mid 1980s. And will continue to do so. It is a distinctly stupid idea and comes from the likes of the state of California, where I used to live. It's about as useful as all their other idiotic gun laws.

If I hear one more time that someone is capable of releasing a magazine in the event of their firearm about to be taken away, I think I am going to have a primal scream. If you can train and take the time to do this, why not just shoot them in the first place?

It is just so ridiculous. If you like magazine disconnects, why not just move to California or other states that require them and enjoy some of their other ridiculous gun "safety" laws. You'll be right at home.

Sorry, for the ardent discourse. I just think this is a ridiculous topic and the concept even more so. It serves absolutely no purpose in spite of all the theorizing that goes along with it.

 

[Warp]

If I hear one more time that someone is capable of releasing a magazine in the event of their firearm about to be taken away, I think I am going to have a primal scream. If you can train and take the time to do this, why not just shoot them in the first place?

This has actually been done in the real world by police officers.

We already train to drop the magazine, I don't see how it takes more training to learn how to drop the mag if you are afraid you might lose control of the pistol.

You might not be able to shoot them at that point because the gun might not be pointed at them, and you may not be able guarantee you can point it at them and pull the trigger before losing control of it. Other reasons too.

I know I've read of it being done, and I know I've done FoF where I was going to lose/lost the gun and thought, you know, it would be nice if I could make them have to reach down and pick up a mag to make that gun work

 

[9mmepiphany]

If I hear one more time that someone is capable of releasing a magazine in the event of their firearm about to be taken away, I think I am going to have a primal scream.

Better start screaming, there are 3 documented cases that I'm aware of where the ability to eject the magazine kept officers from being shot with their own weapons.

On there other hand, there are no documented cases of having the ability to fire the round in the chamber, when the magazine has been removed, having ever saved a life

If you can train and take the time to do this, why not just shoot them in the first place?

...because you haven't drawn the gun from the holster before you were engaged in a grappling match with your attacker?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Having made light of this, I will say that I've heard it repeated a few times. I think folks must have seen it in a movie somewhere.

I don't know where others might have seen it, but I first read about the function saving officer's lives from reading the writings of Massad Ayoob.

I attended in-service Officer Survival training where examples of the saves and technique were taught.

 

[rcmodel]

+1

The Illinois State Police were the first major police orginazation in the country to adopt the 9mm pistol in 1967.
The gun was the S&W Model 39, with a magazine safety.

There were at least three, maybe four documented cases of officers dropping a mag in a gun struggle and letting the BG have the gun that didn't work anymore while they went for other measures.

Myself, I like them, especially for a car gun.
When I have to go in somewhere that doesn't allow guns?

I leave the gun in the car and take the mags with me.
Even if some scum sucker steals it, he for sure won't be shooting anybody with my gun in the future!!

Model 39 mags are getting pretty hard to find at your local street corner lately.

It's also handy if you have visiting rug rats around underfoot.
Pop the mag and put it in your pocket, and the gun is inert, even if it is chamber loaded.

Losing one by accident is a non-starter to me.
I won't go to the bathroom with an auto pistol without three mags.
1 in the gun, and 2 extras.

I follow:
MURPHYS MAGAZINE COUNT RULE:
1 = None
2 = One.
3 = Three.

If you have three, nothing bad will ever happen to any of them!!



rc

 

[danez71]

I actually prefer them but I don't think they are a 'problem' either way.

I see them being similar to a transmission safety switch that prevents the car from starting unless it's in Park (for auto trans) or the clutch is pushed in (for a manual trans).

 

[Sam1911]

I was wondering this, too. With the amount of training scenarios, dry firing, mag change and un/holster practice, etc. For those who think the possibility of an accidental mag release, how would this be likely given the amount of muscle memory you have likely built up?

I will weigh in on this.

Ask any competitor (i.e. someone who shoots very regularly, esp. in dynamic situations working from a holster) if they've ever had a magazine not seated or even fall out when the timer BEEPed and they drew and went to begin a string of fire, and they'll all laugh sheepishly and tell you, OF COURSE! Happens to everybody from time to time. That's the whole purpose behind the "TAP" part of the "tap, rack, bang" technique to clear a malfunction. Mag wasn't seated. It's so common that we have a universal fix-it drill we all practice religiously to correct it.

Now, a not-completely-seated magazine may still activate a magazine disconnect, but one that drops out when you draw the gun rapidly won't.

So you go for the gun, draw and present, and OH CRAP! the mag falls out, and now the one round you do have won't fire either.

I don't know for sure that that scenario is a LOT more common than the three or four instances we know of where a cop dropped his magazine so the bad guy could take his gun, but it certainly is SOME more common.

I know I'd rather take my chances with a gun that can be made to work once than with one that suddenly can't be made to work at all.

 

[pintler]

"I'd say that would equate to rather ninja-level anticipation and reaction to that very chaotic situations -- but would be strangely juxtaposed against your seeming inability to instead push the OTHER, much larger, button that makes the gun go "bang."

Having made light of this, I will say that I've heard it repeated a few times. I think folks must have seen it in a movie somewhere."

I've had it mentioned in retention classes as well.

The usual context is that you're an officer with a backup gun. You are pushing down trying to keep your gun in the holster, while a suspect is trying to get it out. You feel like you're losing that battle (the suspect is a lot stronger or whatever). You hit the mag release and let him have the now temporarily inactivated gun. As he tries to shoot you with his new prize, you step away and use your backup gun.

If your department issues a gun with a mag disconnect, it's worth thinking about.

My instructors agreed with previous posters that it had been done successfully.

 

[jmorris]

I guess Idont like them because almost all of my firearms do not have them. I have even converted my favorite Hi Power so it also no longer has the disconnect.

Nothing "wrong" with them and can quickly make the firearm unable to shoot but sure would hate to have a mag drop out and need one round that I can't fire.

That's pretty unlikely these days so I just avoid them because that are a PITA for the triple redundant safety measures common when playing gun games.

 

[Predator55]

Good, someone trying to get your weapon and you pop the mag, they can't shoot you. Bad, in a shoutout you accidentally pop the mag, you can't shoot. Personally, I don't like disconnects or safeties on my SD pistol.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Ask any competitor (i.e. someone who shoots very regularly, esp. in dynamic situations working from a holster) if they've ever had a magazine not seated or even fall out when the timer BEEPed and they drew and went to begin a string of fire, and they'll all laugh sheepishly and tell you, OF COURSE! Happens to everybody from time to time.

I have to echo Sam on this. I can't even count the number of times I've seen this in competition.

I just saw it twice last weekend at the local small IDPA match...and that was only 40 shooters.

But I should qualify that, it was the same shooter twice.

I don't know for sure that that scenario is a LOT more common than the three or four instances we know of where a cop dropped his magazine so the bad guy could take his gun, but it certainly is SOME more common.

Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've never seen or heard of it happening in 28 years in LE.

If it happened on the street, the culture would likely prevent it from becoming common knowledge unless some injury resulted. But that same culture would have broadcast it far and wide if it had happened during firearms qualification or in training.

Interestingly, one of the reasons for this lack of occurance, believed by many trainers, is because mainstream LE isn't a "Gun Culture." Most officers know that they aren't gun people and will actually check to make sure their magazine is fully seated in their duty weapon, we taught to tug on them also, when first holstering at the BOW

 

[BSA1]

Ask any competitor (i.e. someone who shoots very regularly, esp. in dynamic situations working from a holster) if they've ever had a magazine not seated or even fall out when the timer BEEPed and they drew and went to begin a string of fire, and they'll all laugh sheepishly and tell you, OF COURSE! Happens to everybody from time to time. That's the whole purpose behind the "TAP" part of the "tap, rack, bang" technique to clear a malfunction. Mag wasn't seated. It's so common that we have a universal fix-it drill we all practice religiously to correct it.

I hope we can agree that certain modifications to a gun used in competition shooting matches are not a good idea for a gun carried for self and home defense.

 

[BSA1]

I've been removing magazine safeties from any firearm I've had since the mid 1980s. And will continue to do so. It is a distinctly stupid idea and comes from the likes of the state of California, where I used to live. It's about as useful as all their other idiotic gun laws.

It is just so ridiculous. If you like magazine disconnects, why not just move to California or other states that require them and enjoy some of their other ridiculous gun "safety" laws. You'll be right at home.

I can give you 62 reasons why a magazine disconnect is a good feature for some gun owners.

You may be the type of person that never forgets anything such as where did I put the car keys or unlike me who is constantly misplacing my cell phone.

With children in the home the magazine disconnect is an important additional layer of safety (at least it was when my children were young and will be with the Grandkids and (amen) certain relatives.). While clearing the chamber is the best safety and absolute procedure against a unintended discharge it is easy for some of us to be distracted or just plain forget. I can remove the magazine but I am sure that I remember to clear the chamber.

Well I am pretty sure as I always clear the chamber.

Hummm…where are those darn car keys?

When I was in the 3rd grade we had identical twin brothers in our class. One day they got their Fathers 22 pistol from where the top shelf of the closet where it was hidden and one of brothers accidentally shot and killed his twin. I attended the funeral and to this day remember seeing the bullet hole in his right temple in his head. They did as good of a job as they could covering the bullet hole but it was still visible.

MORE THAN TWO-THIRDS OF THESE TRAGEDIES COULD BE AVOIDED IF GUN OWNERS STORED THEIR GUNS RESPONSIBLY AND PREVENTED CHILDREN FROM ACCESSING THEM. Of the child shooting deaths in which there was sufficient information available to make the determination, 70 percent (62 of 89 cases) could have been prevented if the firearm had been stored locked and unloaded

https://everytownresearch.org/reports/innocents_lost/

Among children, the majority of unintentional shooting deaths occur in the home. Most of these deaths occur when children are playing with a loaded gun in their parent’s absence.

• The U.S. General Accounting Office estimated that 31 percent of accidental deaths caused by firearms might be prevented with the addition of 2 devices: a child-proof safety lock and a loading indicator.
• Approximately one of three handguns guns is kept loaded and unlocked and most children know where their parents keep their guns.
• 73 percent of children under age 10 know where their parents keep their firearms and 36 percent admitted handling the weapons, contradicting their parents’ reports.


https://injury.research.chop.edu/vi...-violence/gun-violence-facts-and#.V3aLtxJTFLM

 

[RecoilRob]

Depending on how the mag safety is designed...they can cause malfunctions even when the mag is inserted properly. The ill-fated Walther G22 was a 'jam-O-matic' largely because of the mag safety which slowed the bolt travel enough that they often wouldn't shoot well. Mine was removed early on when I found the bolt 'crunchy' moving which was it having to fight its' way over the safety...not a good design.

Some guns need the mag safety mechanism to be VERY closely manufactured or the guns will not function...either by not dropping the hammer or by causing feed failures depending on whether it's too loose or too tight. If the mag safety only works on the trigger mechanism it's much less offensive than one that's involved in any way with the slide/bolt articulation. Mine all are out just to simplify everything to the same level of operation.

 

[Sam1911]

I hope we can agree that certain modifications to a gun used in competition shooting matches are not a good idea for a gun carried for self and home defense.

Of course, but that has no bearing at all on the discussion we're having here.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Other than the FN P-35, where it affects the trigger horribly, the only functional downside I've observed has been when clearing the pistol in competition or during cleaning

 

[Mike J]

I have never owned a pistol with a magazine disconnect & honestly don't care to. If you are thinking about purchasing a pistol with one I would suggest you research the design first. About 8 or 9 years ago I was wanting to get another pistol. I had an old Ruger P-94 in .40 caliber. I ran across a P345 which was at the time Rugers latest greatest .45 caliber P Series pistol. I really liked the way it fit my hand & wanted one. I decided to come home & research it. I dug around the rugerforum & found stories of what they called "click no bang". The magazine disconnect in that model of pistol can actually cause damage to the pistol if you dry fire it without a magazine in place. The SR series Ruger makes now includes a similar magazine disconnect though I think I read someone post that it is more robust. Some would say that if you never dry fire it without a magazine in there is no cause for concern. How am I to know what was done before I take possession of the firearm? Someone could have dry fired it without a magazine at the gun counter or if you don't know what the prior owner did. Others would say to simply remove it. I find myself thinking that if I have to use a firearm in self defense it would not look good to whoever was investigating that I disabled a safety device. So I don't buy any Ruger semis that have this "safety feature". Others may be fine. I don't know.