Why does there seem to be shotgun hate?

[labnoti]

Hunert-year old pump here, wheel-gun, and a Peavey amp. "That's the way it was and we liked it!"

 

[Reloadron]

Lately, I see a lot of “hate” on shotguns, usually people who say “AR15” or PCC are the better choices will be the ones to talk the most trash.

Just as a side note the best home defense gun is the one which works best for you. Me? Using one of my AR rifles or any of my rifles would be a very poor choice.

Shotguns? During the early and mid 90s owning a small brick and mortar gun shop my wife and I sold hundreds. During my entire life I have only owned a few and just inherited one from an uncle. Not that I disliked or had any hate for shotguns, they simply weren't my calling. Actually the old Remington Model 11 I just inherited would be a better choice for home defense in my home than most other choices.Prior to several years ago, Ohio like many states only allowed shotgun with a slug or cap & ball for deer hunting so if you wanted to hunt deer it was with a shotgun.

Anyway, I really enjoyed trap & skeet when friends asked me to go along. So while never really drawn to shotguns I certainly do not dislike them.

Now I need to find some 16 gauge shotgun ammunition.

Ron

 

[mjsdwash]

My take is that Norinco at least puts out some pretty solid firearms.

there was a run of knockoffs, I think they were licensed, coming out of China. They may have been Norinco, though the quality wasn't up to the name. These were sold by H/R, and were the popular option for the cheap shotguns when the Maverick went up in price.

 

[mjsdwash]

Sounds like you are talking about the 870 Express and not the 870 Wingmaster; night and day between the two.

yes, but I have never, in my life known anyone defending their house with a Wingmaster. I'm sure it happens, but its not common. Few people pay a 200% finish upgrade on a fighting gun. I AM talking about the Express. Chevy made some great cars in 1976, but they sold a lot of Vega's too.

 

[Rubone]

870 fan here. Have others too, but these are the workhorses. All but one are Express...

 

[cdb1]

there was a run of knockoffs, I think they were licensed, coming out of China. They may have been Norinco, though the quality wasn't up to the name. These were sold by H/R, and were the popular option for the cheap shotguns when the Maverick went up in price.

Though we can’t get Norinco new in the US anymore they are still exported to other countries. Some people in South Africa I’m acquainted with think highly of Norinco. But Norinco easily could have made shotguns to a price point for an importer that weren’t very good.

 

[George P]

My take is that Norinco at least puts out some pretty solid firearms.

Well, if those workers are as highly paid as the Chinese ones who make NIkes at $0.20/hour, then you can see how they can sell them so cheap and still make a fortune. Personally, I try to NOT buy Chinese whenever I can - it isn't easy, it isn't cheap, and as we saw in Italy where Italian brands brought in huge numbers of Wuhan Chinese workers so it could say "Made in Italy", even if they were made by Chinese workers for companies who were also majority owned by the Chinese. Why anyone in the USA who loves guns would buy Chinese is beyond me.

 

[Antihero]

there was a run of knockoffs, I think they were licensed, coming out of China. They may have been Norinco, though the quality wasn't up to the name. These were sold by H/R, and were the popular option for the cheap shotguns when the Maverick went up in price.

IAC Hawk 982, great guns for the price. Mine is stupendous for the whole $130 I paid new

 

[Antihero]

Hunert-year old pump here, wheel-gun, and a Peavey amp. "That's the way it was and we liked it!"

Which Peavey amp?

I've got a few from the dawn of Peavey like the Vulcan and Dynabass

 

[EIB0879]

Yes they do. Especially the rifled ones. My son has a Mossberg 500 with the 24" rifled barrel w/scope. It will put the 300grn sabot bullets, 3 shots, into a 2" group at 100yds. Plus the trajectory and velocity makes it useful to 250yds or so. They aren't grampa's old slug guns.

I shot a couple of slickheads last year with my scoped 12 ga slug gun using Federal TC 300 gr sabots. I put together a slug gun for hunting public areas where I was limited to a shotgun, muzzleloader, or archery.

When hunting I prefer a rifle though.

 

[tws3b2]

for most of my time, the shotgun was the go-to. For most of my time that shotgun was the 870. Then, the 870 stopped being a reliable shotgun. Given that every new 870 coming from the factory I have seen for the last 15 years has been problematic, and everyone I know says the same thing, I don't think its an internet rumor. Bright side: 870's are easy to fix. I have fixed a few. Cheap, quick, makes you wonder why the factory couldn't.

Then came the Chinese clones.... and those I have seen are junk. As this was happening, the Mossburg Maverick doubled in price, due to the rapid post 911, and 09 financial crisis/quantitative easing related inflation.

As this was going on, Iraq/Afghanistan vets were making a big splash in gun marketing.

Then, the effects of the gun culture gap from the '94 AWB was resulting in most new shooters coming in because of the video game world.

Back to the 870 issue. Most people don't fix broken guns. Even under warranty. They shot them, they jam, they put them back in the closet, then years later take them out with their gamer friends, it jams... everyone is left with a bad impression. Same reasons 1911's jam, same reason AKMs are inaccurate. While many 1911's jam, many AK's miss, and many 870's lock up, there's nothing inherent to the design dictating it must be that way. People just settle for low quality, and the manufacturer builds to suit that.

The shotgun enthusiasm also was a product of its versatility. When firearms were relatively expensive, and most discretionary income was very low, shotguns made the most sense. Given that the CNC/cast/platic gun movement was really taking off around the time the AWB expired, the shotgun was no longer the cheapest, or the only available option.

Then you have urban sprawl. Most people are saying that buckshot is more liability than 5.56.
On top of that, the internet has finally gotten the point across that shotguns DO need to be aimed, and #8 is not a good defense load.
People are finally realizing that missing is possible with a shotgun, and 4 shots can be a problem. Realistically, most people are using factory 5 shot tubes, empty chamber.

Shotguns still offer the noise advantage, and the power advantage.

You Point And Shoot a shotgun. You Don't "Aim" a shotgun. You "Aim" a rifle and you "Aim" a handgun but not a shotgun. A shotgun has no rear sight " except with rifled barrel" and only a front bead "No front sight" so how you going to aim?.

 

[cdb1]

I don’t own any Chinese firearms and have never previously owned one. At my age the odds are pretty good I never will.

But if a Chinese firearm were all that was available to me for protection I’d gladly own one.

 

[cdb1]

You Point And Shoot a shotgun. You Don't "Aim" a shotgun. You "Aim" a rifle and you "Aim" a handgun but not a shotgun. A shotgun has no rear sight " except with rifled barrel" and only a front bead "No front sight" so how you going to aim?.

You do aim a shotgun when hunting deer, turkey and predators, even if the shotgun only has a front bead.

 

[Spats McGee]

yes, but I have never, in my life known anyone defending their house with a Wingmaster. I'm sure it happens, but its not common. Few people pay a 200% finish upgrade on a fighting gun. I AM talking about the Express. Chevy made some great cars in 1976, but they sold a lot of Vega's too.

I've never had to use one in defense of home or hearth, but I think I've had 3 Wingmasters set up for HD. I know I've had at least 2 HD Wingmasters, and one of those is set up for HD as I type this. I'm not an 870 expert, but it's my understanding that it's more than a 'finish upgrade.' If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

 

[rdnktrkr]

Last year I shot my Ithaca pump that had been behind my headboard for 24 or 25 years, the best I remember it was cleaned and lubed, at the same time, (with WD-40), it still went bang and every rnd fired. I hope to take it out more often from now on and my cleaning and lubing have improved. I keep 18 or 20in pumps around the house and garages and usually take one when we go shooting, I also keep an AR in the bedroom but I feel the shotgun would be my first choice along with a handgun. I'm in the south where shotguns were put in our youthful hands right after the 22 and feel comfortable shooting one.

 

[George P]

I've never had to use one in defense of home or hearth, but I think I've had 3 Wingmasters set up for HD. I know I've had at least 2 HD Wingmasters, and one of those is set up for HD as I type this. I'm not an 870 expert, but it's my understanding that it's more than a 'finish upgrade.' If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

It is also a quality of mfg difference, hence the bigger price difference. WAY too many stories of steel based ammo getting stuck or being difficult to remove from an Express chamber due to the rough insides. Similar in the way and pricing of cast iron cookware. New Lodge for $25 doesn't get that final polishing that the old Griswolds and Wagners did and the newer high-end ones; yes they still work, just not as well. Same for the Express vs Wingmaster.

 

[Olon]

It's hard to beat the versatility of a shotgun, and that's why it's my go-to. That and a pistol, purely for convenience.

 

[mjsdwash]

I've never had to use one in defense of home or hearth, but I think I've had 3 Wingmasters set up for HD. I know I've had at least 2 HD Wingmasters, and one of those is set up for HD as I type this. I'm not an 870 expert, but it's my understanding that it's more than a 'finish upgrade.' If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

yes, I think its a better trigger group as well. I certainly agree the Wingmaster has and can be a great home defense gun. But they are expensive, typically have longer barrels, and are not popular among the post-cheap AR market. Most of the anti-shotgun growth I have seen has been from around 2005 and up, and I can't remember the last time I saw a Wingmaster, even in a gunshop, but I know it was before 2005. I should mention, an 870 Express Mag was leaning up by my door for 5 years. I an NOT anti-shotgun, and not anti-870. FWIW, my Express did get the chamber worked.

 

[mjsdwash]

You Point And Shoot a shotgun. You Don't "Aim" a shotgun. You "Aim" a rifle and you "Aim" a handgun but not a shotgun. A shotgun has no rear sight " except with rifled barrel" and only a front bead "No front sight" so how you going to aim?.

my 870 has a V-notch sighted 21" smoothbore. Admittedly, I did have to search it out. I suppose I would say you "dial in" a shotgun?

 

[mjsdwash]

IAC Hawk 982, great guns for the price. Mine is stupendous for the whole $130 I paid new

They were getting sold at Walmart, and people weren't too thrilled with them. As always, you hear about the lemons, never about the good ones.

 

[mjsdwash]

Though we can’t get Norinco new in the US anymore they are still exported to other countries. Some people in South Africa I’m acquainted with think highly of Norinco. But Norinco easily could have made shotguns to a price point for an importer that weren’t very good.

yea, I have respect for Norinco. My original quote "They may have been Norinco, though the quality wasn't up to the name." may have came off differently than intended. I have not seen a lot of Norinco made junk. Thats the big reason I was surprised by the cheap junky shotguns. Again, I can't say they were Norinco, I don't remember seeing that name on them. But Google says it most likely was. These were $150 Walmart specials. Would not surprise me at all if they were "Walmart only serial range" like many electronics, and clothes. That would explain why no Norinco engraving, just importer marks.

 

[mjsdwash]

http://pardnerpump.com/tag/made-in-china-shotgun/ This is the gun we saw issues with new that burned some people. I notice this page offering replacement follower, and that was what stood out to me as far as the malfunctions go. I would still buy a Mossburg Maverick if looking for a sub $400 shotgun, but maybe these would be alright.

 

[cdb1]

I have a friend who bought a Pardner Pump because he wanted to take some pictures of his wife wearing a camo thong and holding a pump shotgun in a provocative pose. He didn’t own a shotgun so was looking to buy the cheapest one he could find. He bought a Pardner, took the pictures and then decided to shoot it. It has held up very well in the five years he’s had it. True story though I’m sure if someone told me the same line I’d be skeptical.

 

[labnoti]

Which Peavey amp?

I've got a few from the dawn of Peavey like the Vulcan and Dynabass

Classic 30 made in Meridian, Mississippi. That's how we liked it! Turkey's for Thanksgiving and China's what Ma would serve it on.

 

[George P]

my 870 has a V-notch sighted 21" smoothbore. Admittedly, I did have to search it out. I suppose I would say you "dial in" a shotgun?

Not really, you aren't shooting a single projectile (unless a slug), so "dialing it in" is not really apropos. Getting the fit of the stock correct so it shoots to the desired POI is important though.