Why is the 45-70 so popular?

[jim in Anchorage]

the 30-06 in most manuals is loaded pressure wise way below the 308. I have an older nosler book that in 30-06 with Rel 22 the 200 grain goes 2700 FPS the 220 at 2600. the 308 in the same book has the 200 going 2500 and has no listing for the 220. I love both rounds but the 308 is not a 30-06

 

[Llama Bob]

the 30-06 in most manuals is loaded pressure wise way below the 308. I have an older nosler book that in 30-06 with Rel 22 the 200 grain goes 2700 FPS the 220 at 2600. the 308 in the same book has the 200 going 2500 and has no listing for the 220. I love both rounds but the 308 is not a 30-06

The results I provided are from Quick Load. Everything was for the fastest powder at full pressure. In that sort of apples to apples comparison, it'll be about 100 ft/s, slight more for longer nosed bullets and slightly less for round nosed. There really is essentially no difference, despite the devout wishes of .30-06 fanboys that there would be one.

 

[salt&battery]

The results I provided are from Quick Load. Everything was for the fastest powder at full pressure. In that sort of apples to apples comparison, it'll be about 100 ft/s, slight more for longer nosed bullets and slightly less for round nosed. There really is essentially no difference, despite the devout wishes of .30-06 fanboys that there would be one.

no wishing involved in the nosler manual . Rel 22 will give you near magnum factory loads in the 30-06 backed up by the numbers

 

[Llama Bob]

no wishing involved in the nosler manual . Rel 22 will give you near magnum factory loads in the 30-06 backed up by the numbers

Maybe you didn't read what I wrote. I'm using the fastest powder for both cartridges. There is essentially no difference.

Incidentally, the fastest powder in both cases is RL-26, not RL-22.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Maybe you didn't read what I wrote. I'm using the fastest powder for both cartridges. There is essentially no difference.

Incidentally, the fastest powder in both cases is RL-26, not RL-22.

Why are you restricting yourself to the fastest powders?

 

[Llama Bob]

Why are you restricting yourself to the fastest powders?

Fastest as in velocity, not fastest as in burn rate. I am looking at the absolute fastest you can drive a given bullet in each case within SAAMI max pressure. And the differences are small - within 50-150 ft/s depending on projectile length.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Fastest as in velocity, not fastest as in burn rate. I am looking at the absolute fastest you can drive a given bullet in each case within SAAMI max pressure. And the differences are small - within 50-150 ft/s depending on projectile length.

OK I get that. I thought you talking burn rate.

 

[Llama Bob]

OK I get that. I thought you talking burn rate.

Yeah, I wasn't clear. Sorry for the confusion.

And I'm not anti .30-06. It does however have a couple of case design decisions like the shoulder angle that make it inefficient, which means that it's possible to essentially match it with a smaller case (the .308). The only place the .308 can't nearly keep up is with very long bullets with boat tails, VLD shapes, plastic tips, and/or voids in the nose. On the opposite end of the spectrum flat base round nose bullets like most very heavy offerings show almost no difference.

There's also the fact that .30-06 doesn't have a powder that's as good for heavy bullets as RL-26 is for .308. The ideal powder for .30-06 would have similar energy density, but a slightly slower burn rate. Unfortunately there is no such powder commercially available. So the top powder for heavy bullets in .30-06 is RL-26 as well. The slight burn rate mismatch somewhat unfairly handicaps the .30-06.

 

[someguy2800]

I think certain things are just well matched with each other regardless of how they look on paper. In a light compact gun like a ruger american with a 22 inch barrel I would just rather have a 308 as a 30-06 just seams too much. In a heavier gun with a 26 inch barrel say a model 70 or a mauser I would rather have a 30-06. In a gun like that a short action cartridge just doesn't seam like it belongs to me.

Back on the same topic some guns just feel right with an older cartridge, like a sharps or the like. Would you want a 300 wsm sharps? Nah I'd rather have a 45-70 or 45-90. I am a bit of a handi rifle fan and I have tried 3 barrels in modern rimless cartridges and I don't like them as much as my 444. I know I posted earlier in this thread that I wasn't sure if I liked it but I have really come around to it in the last couple weeks shooting it. Even though the 444 is technically modern, I consider it to be effectively a 80% scale 45-70 which is just right in my short light gun.

 

[CraigC]

All I will say is that .30-06 true believers never concede on any point whatsoever. Their pet cartridge is the greatest there ever was, it is the only cartridge that can be considered "versatile" and easily the equal of anything short of the .375H&H. It's better at any specialized job than any specialized cartridge that was specifically designed for the task. It is truly the only rifle cartridge that should even exist. The legend is deep and the pixie dust is heavy.

In a single shot, the .444 gives up very little to the .45-70. You can get the 405gr Beartooth over 2100fps without exceeding standard pressures. That's equivalent to a 460gr .45-70 but at higher velocities.

 

[RPRNY]

All I will say is that .30-06 true believers never concede on any point whatsoever. Their pet cartridge is the greatest there ever was, it is the only cartridge that can be considered "versatile" and easily the equal of anything short of the .375H&H. It's better at any specialized job than any specialized cartridge that was specifically designed for the task. It is truly the only rifle cartridge that should even exist. The legend is deep and the pixie dust is heavy.

Oh the irony! ;-)

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Well I would be more then happy to boost the 06 all day(I have 5 of them-bolt, pump and semi) but on the 45-70 and why it's so popular a reason I haven't seen mentioned here is it's reputation as a brush buster. Many, right or wrong, think that big slow bullet will just plow though the thickest tangle of branch you ever saw, but a small bore high velocity will blow up or bounce sky ward first blade of grass it hits.

 

[RPRNY]

Also an H&R 444 fan!

I think certain things are just well matched with each other regardless of how they look on paper. In a light compact gun like a ruger american with a 22 inch barrel I would just rather have a 308 as a 30-06 just seams too much. In a heavier gun with a 26 inch barrel say a model 70 or a mauser I would rather have a 30-06. In a gun like that a short action cartridge just doesn't

Back on the same topic some guns just feel right with an older cartridge, like a sharps or the like. Would you want a 300 wsm sharps? Nah I'd rather have a 45-70 or 45-90. I am a bit of a handi rifle fan and I have tried 3 barrels in modern rimless cartridges and I don't like them as much as my 444. I know I posted earlier in this thread that I wasn't sure if I liked it but I have really come around to it in the last couple weeks shooting it. Even though the 444 is technically modern, I consider it to be effectively a 80% scale 45-70 which is just right in my short light gun.

There's an analogy there. What could it be? That the 308 is to the 30-06 what the 444 is to the 45-70...

No, that can't be it.

 

[CraigC]

Oh the irony! ;-)

Nice try but no cigar.

 

[Llama Bob]

Many, right or wrong, think that big slow bullet will just plow though the thickest tangle of branch you ever saw, but a small bore high velocity will blow up or bounce sky ward first blade of grass it hits.

With certain bullets there's probably a grain of truth in that. I figure if my .45-90 425gr solid load will track straight through multiple oak tree rounds (not captured after 60" of wood) it'll never even acknowledge the existence of some bush.

 

[salt&battery]

All I will say is that .30-06 true believers never concede on any point whatsoever. Their pet cartridge is the greatest there ever was, it is the only cartridge that can be considered "versatile" and easily the equal of anything short of the .375H&H. It's better at any specialized job than any specialized cartridge that was specifically designed for the task. It is truly the only rifle cartridge that should even exist. The legend is deep and the pixie dust is heavy.

In a single shot, the .444 gives up very little to the .45-70. You can get the 405gr Beartooth over 2100fps without exceeding standard pressures. That's equivalent to a 460gr .45-70 but at higher velocities.

the difference of opinion was over the fact that the 06 only pushes any bullet 100 fps faster then a 308. that is wrong. with Rel 22 powder the 06 passes the 308 with 180 grain and up by 200-300 fps whether people think that is necessary is up to them I could care less. the 30-06 is all a man would need for all big game in north America. I love the 308 but not the same as the 06

 

[salt&battery]

Fastest as in velocity, not fastest as in burn rate. I am looking at the absolute fastest you can drive a given bullet in each case within SAAMI max pressure. And the differences are small - within 50-150 ft/s depending on projectile length.

Above this post I listed from 180-220 the velocities of the 06 and 308 it is not 50-100 fps it is 200-250 fps. as I said Rel 22 in the older nosler book was the powder that pushed the heavy bullets the fastest. how can 10 more grains of powder the 06 holds more then the 308 push the same weight bullets almost the same speed AT the same pressures?

 

[Llama Bob]

Above this post I listed from 180-220 the velocities of the 06 and 308 it is not 50-100 fps it is 200-250 fps. as I said Rel 22 in the older nosler book was the powder that pushed the heavy bullets the fastest. how can 10 more grains of powder the 06 holds more then the 308 push the same weight bullets almost the same speed AT the same pressures?

I trust Quick Load a LOT more than I trust you. It's dead nuts on for the more common bottle neck cartridges. Manufacturer data is generally garbage in comparison.

And as I said before, RL-22 is NOT the fastest powder for heavy bullets in .30-06. RL-26 is. If you knew anything about the Reloader line, you'd understand why. You have junk data.

 

[Steve S.]

I like my .308 and my 45-70; I have never owned a 30-06 but I am confident in that caliber's ability. In my way of thinking, they would have all killed buffalo in 1874. In one buffalo survey conducted by MSU, fully 92% of the buffalo stated that they were indifferent as to the the caliber shooting through their chest. As one alpha buffalo stated, "Getting shot is easy, having a brain that lets you stand there until it happens is just not fair!"

 

[midland man]

well let me throw a monkey wrench into this dog fight! a 243 will out shoot a 308 or 30-06 anytime its on youtube where a woman shot a cow elk with a 243 at 688 yards one shot kill plus the 243 will shoot a long ways out! so try that one on for size!! I love shooting the 100gr bullet it will take'em out!!

 

[CraigC]

Speer #14 shows about a 100fps difference between the two, up to 200gr. Tested in actual guns, both 22" model 700's.

 

[salt&battery]

I trust Quick Load a LOT more than I trust you. It's dead nuts on for the more common bottle neck cartridges. Manufacturer data is generally garbage in comparison.

And as I said before, RL-22 is NOT the fastest powder for heavy bullets in .30-06. RL-26 is. If you knew anything about the Reloader line, you'd understand why. You have junk data.

you can call nosler and tell them they have junk data. on long range hunting forum they used 62.5 grains of Rel 26 with 178 grain ELD bullet in a 30-06 and got 2900 fps. if you can squeeze 2600 out of a 308 with same bullet you are lucky which is not a bad load . do not want to argue but 10-12 grains more powder means more FPS at same pressure and weight bullet

 

[salt&battery]

Speer #14 shows about a 100fps difference between the two, up to 200gr. Tested in actual guns, both 22" model 700's.

I called them about that years ago and they said 308 loaded to higher pressures and being so many old rifles and conversions in 30-06 pressures are kept lower. not so in newer modern rifles made in 30-06. somewhat like 45-70 loads for a springfield and marlin. even 7x57 mauser load data and factory loads suffer from older rifles with different throats so loads kept at lower pressures

 

[jim in Anchorage]

With certain bullets there's probably a grain of truth in that. I figure if my .45-90 425gr solid load will track straight through multiple oak tree rounds (not captured after 60" of wood) it'll never even acknowledge the existence of some bush.

Best brush round sure deserves it's own thread, but I don't agree with your reasoning. We are talking restantice to deflection here, not sheer penetration. If that was the case a 220 gr soild out of a .300 WBY. would be ultimate thick cover gun.
For many, many years a round nose bullet was considered much better at bush busting than a spitzer, regardless of which would penetrate the most oak.
Right or wrong, I don't know, and we may never know because it's impossible to attempt a test where 2 shots hit bush exactly the same way.

 

[Llama Bob]

All I will say is that .30-06 true believers never concede on any point whatsoever. Their pet cartridge is the greatest there ever was, it is the only cartridge that can be considered "versatile" and easily the equal of anything short of the .375H&H. It's better at any specialized job than any specialized cartridge that was specifically designed for the task. It is truly the only rifle cartridge that should even exist. The legend is deep and the pixie dust is heavy.

No doubt. I figure since I'm going to be taking at least a backup rifle on any hunt I go on I might as well have some versatility. And that doesn't mean a bunch of .30-06 loads. Four hunting rifles for all medium/big game seems about right:

• Kimber 84M in 7mm-08 - covers all deer, hogs, sheep, antelope, and goats out to 400y. Mountain rifle weight and light recoil.
• Winchester M70 supergrade in 7mm mag - covers elk, moose, black bears, African plains game and backs up the 7mm-08 for smaller game
• Winchester M70 Alaskan in .375 H&H - covers the great bears and bison and backs up the 7mm mag for elk-sized game and the .45-90 for dangerous game
• Browning 1886 rifle in magnumized .45-90 - a stopping rifle for any dangerous game anywhere on Earth, and an option for <200y shots on smaller game where I want no tracking

So I'm never going to hunt everything with the big straight wall cartridges, but I'm not going to stick to a single .30-06 either.