JeffG
Member
You can still let everyone have their cars, and Communist rule will work. Not so with guns.
Why registering guns is not the same as registering cars
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Sistema1927
Member
Some people watch too much CSI.
You do know that forensic matching of bullets/cases to weapons is not a slam dunk, don't you? Often the police can tell that a casing was fired from a certain type of weapon, say a Glock for example, but until they find the exact Glock they are only fishing, and even then results may prove to be inconclusive.
Every jurisdiction that has required fired cartridge cases has expended much effort for almost zero results. Even if one was able to maintain a registry of actual fired cases and fired bullets it would take 30 seconds to modify the weapon so that it wouldn't match what is on file. Not to mention the changes that occur with normal usage.
Jinx0760
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My question is at what point will the majority of American gun owners say "NO"? The current political climate, politicalization of all news sources and lack of knowledge/respect of the Constitution and world history, gives me little hope for the future. The parable about "boiling a frog" comes to mind!
Records are required for universal background checks to work. Our current system makes it very difficult to prosecute people that sell to prohibited persons. 4473 forms can track the chain of custody for guns just as titles and registrations do for cars.
Interesting that you bring up the American Revolution. I look at our former colonial ruler and colonial cousins, the UK, Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. All have stricter gun laws than the United States yet all are successful "western" democracies with a high standards of living. I wouldn't mind living in any of them, and have happy American expat friends in each of them.
Deanimator
Member
Which of course is why there shouldn't BE sham "universal background checks".
They also have no 1st Amendment protections.... not a coincidence.
I simply couldn't care less what authoritarian policies other countries have. I don't wish to adopt Sharia either.
4473s only identity the first time buyer from a Federally licenced dealer.
Speaking of the UK, and having lived there twice (1969-77 and 1988-95), and held shotgun certificates and firearms certificates. I can say with certainty that registration leads to confiscation. Seen it.
And violent crime is way up. There is no less a supply of black market firearms and shootings two decades later. If you can afford to live out in a very rural area you might get a peaceful existence. On the other hand if you live in the less than affluent parts of most major cities, or many smaller towns, things are not so rosey. And now you have the prospect of being arrested for speech that addresses one of the main reasons certain violent and sexual crimes are so high there. So a largely disarmed population is now being slowly strangled and can not even complain about it, let alone defend themselves.
The people that want to completely disarm us are also attacking free speech. No thanks, we do not need any universal registration here.
Sistema1927
Member
Don't let the door....
denton
Member
When Form 4473 came into existence, the government wanted to be the keeper of the database. The NRA and many gun owners were opposed to this for very good reasons.
The compromise that was struck was that gun dealers held the 4473s, and the government could inquire about and trace any particular firearm that had been used in a crime. The dealers hold the database.
That was a good division, though the government has not quite abided by the spirit of the compromise.
The technology exists to do sort of the same thing electronically: Transfer records could be created and owned by the seller. Only the seller could access the record. The record is heavily encrypted, probably very nearly hack proof, does not reside on a government computer, and anyone who did crack a record would get only that one record. So you could have a public domain NICS list, do away the 4473, and the government could require the owner of a record to open it with a court order so that guns could be traced. You could actually have universal background checks, with no possibility of the government getting a list of who owns what.
Would we ever do that? Not a chance. The government would rather eat worms and die than agree to that.
The compromise that was struck was that gun dealers held the 4473s, and the government could inquire about and trace any particular firearm that had been used in a crime. The dealers hold the database.
That was a good division, though the government has not quite abided by the spirit of the compromise.
The technology exists to do sort of the same thing electronically: Transfer records could be created and owned by the seller. Only the seller could access the record. The record is heavily encrypted, probably very nearly hack proof, does not reside on a government computer, and anyone who did crack a record would get only that one record. So you could have a public domain NICS list, do away the 4473, and the government could require the owner of a record to open it with a court order so that guns could be traced. You could actually have universal background checks, with no possibility of the government getting a list of who owns what.
Would we ever do that? Not a chance. The government would rather eat worms and die than agree to that.
Uh, you mean the government - as in the gun grabbing faction - would rather WE eat worms and die.
Mr. Standfast
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Actually no, murder has declined, and our rate, expressed per 100,000 of population, is far from the lowest in western Europe, but under a fifth of the US rate. I am only guessing that in the worst inner cities it is a fifth the rate of the worst US inner cities, and in quiet country areas it is a fifth of US country areas. But if it is more than a fifth in one, it is less than a fifth in the other. The US has a higher proportion of firearms crime, but still maintains its lead in non-firearms murder. As to freedom of speech and the media, what is the good of an amendment if you abridge freedom of speech more anyway? Britain has never seen anything like the Macarthyist purges.
Unlike murder, where the victim doesn't much mind having it reported, sexual crime statistics are colossally unreliable. Throughout the western world I don't think that there is much doubt that rape is decreasing (as it should, to the development of DNA evidence), reporting of rape is increasing (as it should, due to victims being more sympathetically listened to). The way the authorities accept reports has more effect on statistics than what actually happens. But if you think this has any relevance to gun control, you won't find support for it here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics
What is much harder to quantify is the absence of the suspicion and resentment of gun owners which is so prevalent in the US, and which you now seem so certain to suffer for.
Just about all forensic techniques are less fallible than they are made out to be. I remember seeing a TV demonstration of the clear figure of a "fugitive", being pursued under woodland cover by a police helicopter with a thermal imaging device. There was no mention of what happens when the ambient temperature is 98.4 Fahrenheit. The traces left on bullet and case are frequently inconclusive, or subject to alteration - although some alterations in the gun may be recognisable as such. But the risk remains one a man who can be tied to his gun is unlikely to enjoy.
This is a picture I took (through a jeweller's loupe, as it was all I had), showing the area around the primer indentation on one of 13 5.56mm. cases I picked up at the top of a highway exit ramp in Kuwait City. There was little or no fighting in that area in the Liberation, and members of the Kuwaiti military I knew explained in startling detail why that was just the place for a Resistance ambush. If formed the only article I ever had turned down flat by a US editor, with regret, for he said the chances were too great that a reader would actually do it. I suppose he knew his public better than I did.
The little pyramid-shaped pimple is where the bolt slammed shut on a tiny grain, harder than the usual desert sand. I could distinguish that M16 with complete certainty today, from any other ever made. It fired about half of the cases, and the rest came from one other. Even in Northern Ireland the IRA used to employ "memory men" who were under orders not to risk so much as a speeding ticket, because they were human memory banks for information that couldn't be committed to paper. That included a list of which hidden weapons had been used before, and how often. The authorities are still linking the occasional gun or case to events of decades ago.
Actually no, murder has declined, and our rate, expressed per 100,000 of population, is far from the lowest in western Europe, but under a fifth of the US rate. I am only guessing that in the worst inner cities it is a fifth the rate of the worst US inner cities, and in quiet country areas it is a fifth of US country areas. But if it is more than a fifth in one, it is less than a fifth in the other. The US has a higher proportion of firearms crime, but still maintains its lead in non-firearms murder. As to freedom of speech and the media, what is the good of an amendment if you abridge freedom of speech more anyway? Britain has never seen anything like the Macarthyist purges.
Unlike murder, where the victim doesn't much mind having it reported, sexual crime statistics are colossally unreliable. Throughout the western world I don't think that there is much doubt that rape is decreasing (as it should, to the development of DNA evidence), reporting of rape is increasing (as it should, due to victims being more sympathetically listened to). The way the authorities accept reports has more effect on statistics than what actually happens. But if you think this has any relevance to gun control, you won't find support for it here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics
What is much harder to quantify is the absence of the suspicion and resentment of gun owners which is so prevalent in the US, and which you now seem so certain to suffer for.
Just about all forensic techniques are less fallible than they are made out to be. I remember seeing a TV demonstration of the clear figure of a "fugitive", being pursued under woodland cover by a police helicopter with a thermal imaging device. There was no mention of what happens when the ambient temperature is 98.4 Fahrenheit. The traces left on bullet and case are frequently inconclusive, or subject to alteration - although some alterations in the gun may be recognisable as such. But the risk remains one a man who can be tied to his gun is unlikely to enjoy.
This is a picture I took (through a jeweller's loupe, as it was all I had), showing the area around the primer indentation on one of 13 5.56mm. cases I picked up at the top of a highway exit ramp in Kuwait City. There was little or no fighting in that area in the Liberation, and members of the Kuwaiti military I knew explained in startling detail why that was just the place for a Resistance ambush. If formed the only article I ever had turned down flat by a US editor, with regret, for he said the chances were too great that a reader would actually do it. I suppose he knew his public better than I did.
The little pyramid-shaped pimple is where the bolt slammed shut on a tiny grain, harder than the usual desert sand. I could distinguish that M16 with complete certainty today, from any other ever made. It fired about half of the cases, and the rest came from one other. Even in Northern Ireland the IRA used to employ "memory men" who were under orders not to risk so much as a speeding ticket, because they were human memory banks for information that couldn't be committed to paper. That included a list of which hidden weapons had been used before, and how often. The authorities are still linking the occasional gun or case to events of decades ago.
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John Joseph
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Driving cars is a Privilege. Bearing arms is a Right.
denton
Member
An interesting post....
I followed the link to the graph of US rapes per 100,000 people, to find that the rate is much lower today than it was in the past, about .5 per 100,000 per year. That's a good thing.
Since the narrative says that 1 in 5 college women will be raped during their college studies, I have to wonder why colleges are running at roughly 5,000 per 100,000 per year, 10,000X the national average. (In round numbers, 20% for four years of college, roughly 5% per year.)
Not going to argue statistics, indeed they can can be manipulated, under reported. I get this from family and other folk who still live there. They've lived there since the 1960s.
Freedom of speech? What is going on in the UK is far worse than any McCarthy hearings. People are being being arrested for their speech, some of them murdered while in prison.
It is relevant to gun control; the lawful population at large there is almost completely disarmed. In what is simmering away over there something is going to give, sooner or later, when it does it will get ugly. Can't discuss why, as it is "political" and therefore out of bounds here.
Another good case study. South Africa. Some barbaric attrition going on there among a largely disarmed population, with open talk of genocide.
Nope, don't want registration here.
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P5 Guy
Member
The right to peacefully assemble cannot be accomplished without some travel by most wanting to attend. Since the modern mode of travel is by automobile the right to drive has become more than a privilege.
Madcap_Magician
Member
To be honest I think one weakness in our communications strategies has always been that we talk a lot about the down sides of prioritizing safety over liberty and rarely come to terms with the costs of prioritizing liberty over safety. There are tradeoffs.
TomJ
Contributing Member
It also had people in England fending off terrorists recently with bar stools and beer mugs. Maybe not such a good idea after all.
denton
Member
Guns vs. cars: The Supreme Court has ruled that there is a constitutional right to travel. Kinda shocked me when I found that out.
Just curious, not doubting.. do you have a case reference on that?
Personally I do not recognize driving a motor vehicle on a public road as a "privilege". It is a fact that in order to freely travel - emphasis on freely - you really have to be able to drive a motor vehicle. There are thousands of miles of highways in this country on which to travel is illegal any other way.
The costs of prioritizing liberty over safety are called the facts of life, and the difference to being free people as opposed to slaves. There is no compromise on this: you are a free man, incarcerated, or a slave. A free man is armed. An incarcerated man, or a slave, is not.
There is no getting around this. If you intentionally avoid this in making arguments you are being intellectually dishonest, even if by omission only.
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denton
Member
https://casetext.com/case/thompson-v-smith-24
There was a later decision that guaranteed the right to leave the country.
By car?
John Joseph
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You are free to take a bus or ride a bicycle or walk to peacefully assemble, or go to work..
Just because you have a job with a 20 mile commute does not give you the right to drive a car.
Having a license, a legally obtained and equipped car and insurance allows you the privilege to drive it to work on public roads if you mind the rules of the road. A privilege that is permitted by your State.
denton
Member
It was actually a passport case involving a person who wanted to travel to England. He was denied a passport because he was a Communist. SCOTUS said he had the right to leave the country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_v._Dulles
You can't ride a bicycle or walk along a freeway.
Just exactly when did this become a "privilege" to travel by a means other than a bicycle or on foot?
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Mr. Standfast
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Iva Toguri, later convicted and pardoned under embarrassing circumstances for broadcasting from Japan, was refused a passport or certification of nationality after applying in peacetime, to get back to the US where she was born.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iva_Toguri_D'Aquino
As to Communists getting into the UK, we probably still have one or two in the House of Lords, but we generally get by on the principle of letting them talk all they like, and not taking a bit of notice. It worked a lot better than the persecution of real and imaginary Communists under McCarthyism. I'm always reminded of the old Zulu method of making sure a dead king would be remembered forever. Even if they enacted that everyone had to remember his name, it would slowly fade from people's memory, like Latin or calculus. So they ruled that anybody who said his name ever again would die horribly, by Zulu standards even. The result that everyone whispered it to his children in dead of night, and treated it as the greatest revelation in life.
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