Why registering guns is not the same as registering cars

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I can promise you something undeniably, no matter how you feel about firearm rights, registration of firearms emboldens government to take them.
They also treat you differently if they see you have guns they fear or lots of guns. That person that might have been approached with a friendly knock on the door instead is visited with a tactical unit ready to deal with the nutcase that has items they fear. When law enforcement pull your car over on the road and see you are listed as having similar things they are more paranoid as they deal with you. Even though the biggest threats to them are typically career criminals that don't own firearms registered to them because they can't legally own firearms.

When government does not know who has what and where it is they feel it is almost hopeless to actually try and eliminate firearms, and instead focus on going after violators of gun laws when they are exposed. They are playing wack-a-mole much like they do with illegal drugs.
They are limited to incremental restrictions to ban and restrict because without that information they cannot enforce sweeping draconian measures with a high compliance rate.
When government knows where guns are they start to create ways to go after those guns, as well as implement other restrictions like enforced storage requirements and other increasing intrusions before they get to the point of taking them away.
In a lot of the world government agents come into your home and insure you are in compliance with the firearms they know about.

Once California got a decent number of registered firearms a task force was created to constantly check for anyone that becomes prohibited under an increasing number of prohibiting offenses (another part of the strategy is to ban more people from owning guns on the march towards banning the guns) or accusations and actively goes to homes to take those firearms.
The disarmament squad.

Every nation has imposed registration before taking away firearms. Once on the book enough years that they feel they know where most of the firearms are they start to systematically take them away, and require more special red tape for the ones they have not gotten around to taking away yet.
When they do go for the guns they prefer a list of all known guns a target has.
Even firearms not previously registered if registered whenever transferred legally start to get a computer database trail (no longer just a paper trail.)

Modern computer databases are shared both legally and illegally between government agencies, retained when they are not supposed to be when allowed to be briefly shared, and otherwise spread in the computer age.
In a time of hacking it also means a database that is widely available enough and has low enough security to be conveniently accessed by all law enforcement, can be hacked and people in our own nation and abroad can use that information or sell it to others.
Imagine organized crime or terrorists browsing a list of firearms by address that they can retrieve to arm themselves. Firearms are also one of the more valuable portable objects people own, on par with jewelry and cash, and a firearm database for criminals would be about on par with a database of jewelry.
There is also plenty of crooked law enforcement, and with such widely accessible databases you can be sure the occasional bad actor will put that information in bad hands on purpose.


The only purpose of government knowing where the guns are is to impose new controls on those firearms. Governments from the dawn of time do not like citizens to have weapons on par with their enforcers, they can impose maximum control over the population utilizing fewer resources when only those under their direct control have effective arms. When they can deploy 100 agents and take on 10,000 armed peasants. This is natural they want to accomplish the most with the least resources and have absolute control with little threat from the population they depend on for tax revenue. The founders knew this and it is why the 2nd was a restriction on government from infringing on a right that government is motivated to infringe on.
Well government knows where all the guns it dislikes are it starts to use that information for many different purposes.


These are not unfounded or paranoid fears. The UN even has an entire department dedicated to disarming the world of civilian held small arms and light weapons.
The European Union similarly works towards disarming member states, even those that want to retain firearm rights.
Whenever you combine governments there is one thing they can see eye to eye on even when they disagree about so much, disarmament of the peasants.
The biggest representation of governments all over the world actively try to disarm citizens of every nation. Citizens with arms are a threat of rebellion or civil war and threaten order. Whether that order is good or bad, dictatorships or democracies, the powers that be all want absolute power, and you can't have absolute power when the citizens are a wild card. But absolute power always corrupts absolutely.
 
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abajaj11 wrote:
Why registering guns is not the same as registering cars

You posted your argument and the associated video on a site that is, in effect, an echo chamber. Nobody here seriously disagrees with your premise, so what's the point? Try posting this on a few pro-gun control sites; I'm sure they will do a very thorough job of pointing out the logical flaws in your arguments. Then, you can come back here, post the most cogent of those arguments and seek some assistance in refuting them.
 
Governments don't care if you own cars. Governments do not like civilians armed since the dawn of time, except when they were more afraid of armed invasion from abroad and considered their own people a lesser threat than the foreign invader. In which case having an armed population would be viewed as the lesser evil by the central government, but an evil nonetheless.
In America the government has no fear of armed invasion from abroad.
 
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Governments don't care if you own cars. Governments do not like civilians armed since the dawn of time, except when they were more afraid of armed invasion from abroad and considered their own people a lesser threat than the foreign invader. In which case having an armed population would be viewed as the lesser evil by the central government, but an evil nonetheless.
In America the government has no fear of armed invasion from abroad.
We're being told "Registration won't lead to confiscation."

We were also told "Nobody wants to repeal the 2nd Amendment."

The degree of contempt in which anti-gun cultists hold gun owners is clearly demonstrated by their apparent belief that we'll believe even the most obvious lie.
 
If you don’t pay your property taxes, the government eventually siezes it.

Some say this proves that you don’t really own it in the first place. Registered and taxed guns will be the same concept. Pay your annual gun tax or we sieze them.
 
Registered and taxed guns will be the same concept. Pay your annual gun tax or we sieze them.

I believe that is the case in Illinois and maybe some of the other places with a similar license program like MA. Losing your FID by not renewing it means the guns you have owned for years become illegal to possess.
A reoccurring tax that if not paid allows all of your firearms to be confiscated and you charged with crime as it is illegal for you to own them.
Maybe they would be nice and drop the charges or reduce it or not give you any actual jail time, and just keep your guns. Government is quite reasonable like that sometimes. You know, where you still lose but they make you feel like you won as they steal your stuff because you didn't lose as bad as you could have.
 
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I believe that is the case in Illinois and maybe some of the other places with a similar license program like MA. Losing your FID by not renewing it means the guns you have owned for years become illegal to possess.
A reoccurring tax that if not paid allows all of your firearms to be confiscated and you charged with crime as it is illegal for you to own them.
Maybe they would be nice and drop the charges or reduce it and just keep your guns, government is quite reasonable like that sometimes.
Registration has been used for de facto bans.

Chicago simply closed registration to new handguns, ensuring that anyone who didn't already have a handgun could never own one.

When a local politician forgot to register his guns, the Chicago City Council had to pass special legislation allowing registration, and since they knew they couldn't get away with JUST allowing HIM to register, they had to let others register in the specified time. That demonstrated the fundamental corruption of the system.

And speaking of corruption, the SOS scandal in the Chicago PD revolved around an "elite" police unit engaged in seizing "illegal" guns. They branched out into robbery, home invasion and kidnapping.
 
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And speaking of corruption, the SOS scandal in the Chicago PD revolved around an "elite" police unit engaged in seizing "illegal" guns. They branched out into robbery, home invasion and kidnapping.

Chicago PD doing corrupt things is nothing new, I recall some of the biggest jewelry heists of all time being perpetrated by high ranking members of the Chicago PD and they didn't just operate locally. With the top detective being in on many of them. Imagine that, the guy that would be investigating the theft was behind them being stolen.

Once retired he also used police databases to target more people:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...t-chicago-police-obituary-20161230-story.html
After retiring from the Chicago Police Department in 1986, Hanhardt tapped a Chicago police sergeant and a detective to access law enforcement computers to help him gather intelligence about jewelry salesmen targeted for theft.

Framing some thug on the streets for things done by corrupt law enforcement is not unheard of either.


Similarly I can recall law enforcement in San Francisco, Los Angeles etc getting into trouble by giving access to the ADL to its law enforcement database information many times over years, which all ended up stored and available to the Israeli government as the ADL was tied to a lot of spying for Israel. Because the ADL was seen as the good guys the level of corruption and spying was insane before anyone started to take serious notice.

Make no mistake about it government databases will be shared both by cooperating law enforcement with each other, law enforcement of other often even more corrupt nations we have even less control over, as well as illegally by bad actors. As well as being hacked in general.
If its in a government database lots of people will know about it over time.
How much of the world do you want to know exactly what guns are stored at what address?
 
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Gov and gov contracted databases are notoriously prone to hacking as well. That means "what you own" is likely not going to be any secret for long.
 
This post shows more than most of yours that you aren’t paying attention. Of course you do not need a registry to ban things and no one is saying you do! You need the registry to go grab the things that were just banned. Really not that hard to understand.

The part that is hard to understand for the average Joe is what exactly you plan to do with a gun once it is banned? Nobody has ever given a reasonable answer to this question of why you fear someone coming to take your gun after a ban. What are go going to do with it once it is banned?

I shoot in public. I have absolutely no use for a gun that I cannot shoot. I'm not going to risk a felony conviction and all that goes with that to keep a gun that I cannot use. I'm certainly not going to rise up in armed rebellion over a hobby. So what use is a banned gun?

Which brings me back to this: The key is preventing the gun from being banned in the first place instead of worry about whether someone could come and get it after it is banned.
 
It's a right not a hobby

Per the Heller decision the Supreme Court ruled that owning a handgun is a personal right separate from participation in a militia. They also said that right is subject to reasonable restrictions. We do not know what the limits of those restrictions are but the Courts have get to rule against the Federal assault rifle ban or any of the State bans so we can reasonably expect that banning guns based on action type, cosmetic features, and magazine capacity is Constitutional. As long as we have the 2nd Amendment we will have private firearms but the details are yet to be worked out.

Which brings us back to my statement: I'm not going to rise up in armed rebellion over a hobby. If my state or the Feds tell me I can't have my semi-automatic rifle or that it can only have 6,7,8, 9, 10 (pick a number) rounds in the magazine I will comply. I won't vote for it but sometime you have to admit that your opinion isn't in the majority. It isn't worth risking a felony charge over the number of rounds in a magazine or what type of action my gun has. Guns are fun but they aren't central to my life.

Which brings me back to my question. What are you going to do with your banned gun? Why is it so important that no one knows you have it?
 
I'm not sure why people get so worked up about registrations. If a ban is passed the battle is already lost.

No, actually the battle(s) will likely begin soon after.

As for your last statement, are you somehow under the impression that firearms are rendered useless and unusable the moment they are declared “banned”? Hate to be the one to break it to you but they are still 100% useful, and probably far more necessary than ever before.

I don't think JSH1 is ignorant (other than intentionally), he's just a Loyalist.
 
263:confused: posts on the thread already is nice, but...

It seems that some conservatives may be leaning towards universal background checks, which we know...

Support is given via a 2013 click article?

Do you have some recent articles quoting said conservatives? A list of names? No Conservatives support this, some wish-a-washiees (R) types do, fence straddlers, do-party-bidding types.


Name them. Cite articles. NAME THEM.
 
Per the Heller decision the Supreme Court ruled that owning a handgun is a personal right separate from participation in a militia. They also said that right is subject to reasonable restrictions. We do not know what the limits of those restrictions are but the Courts have get to rule against the Federal assault rifle ban or any of the State bans so we can reasonably expect that banning guns based on action type, cosmetic features, and magazine capacity is Constitutional. As long as we have the 2nd Amendment we will have private firearms but the details are yet to be worked out.

Which brings us back to my statement: I'm not going to rise up in armed rebellion over a hobby. If my state or the Feds tell me I can't have my semi-automatic rifle or that it can only have 6,7,8, 9, 10 (pick a number) rounds in the magazine I will comply. I won't vote for it but sometime you have to admit that your opinion isn't in the majority. It isn't worth risking a felony charge over the number of rounds in a magazine or what type of action my gun has. Guns are fun but they aren't central to my life.

Which brings me back to my question. What are you going to do with your banned gun? Why is it so important that no one knows you have it?

1. I carry a gun to protect myself and my family, not as a hobby.
2. What would I do with a banned gun? I can't answer that as I don't know what the circumstances would be at the time they're banned and which ones are banned. Too many what ifs.
3. Why is it so important no one knows we have it? We've explained to you numerous times that reigstration is a step towards confiscation. Maybe you should think about why it's so important to the anti's to take guns away from law abiding citizens who pose no threat to others.
 
I'm opposed to gun registration on principle, because it's an open step towards restricting your rights. However, I'm also realistic about the amount of information the government may already possess on my property...

Anything entered over a computer network is capable of being stored and preserved. Anytime you fill out a form 4473, that is submitted to a national database, and transferred over several servers. I'm confident that although it's stated this isn't used to keep records of who owns what, it is stored on a database somewhere; and if the time comes when they come for our guns, they WILL have a list of what they are coming to take.

Our only real option is to keep electing officials who will decline to use this against us.
 
Historically, car registries have not been used to confiscate cars.

No, but they did use the registered vehicles during WW2 to limit travel through the use of "gas rationing". People had letters used like grades (A, B, C, etc.) to determine when and how much gas they could get. Political figures, (mayors, judges, senators, etc.) got top billing, followed by certain doctors and law enforcement. This may not have "confiscated" the vehicle but it did render its use very limited.
 
I think the reason car registration began so early, was that most vehicles appear on a public road whenever they are used, and may never be off it. A gun can spend its entire life till steel crumbles in the owner's home, or stuffed down his trousers. I believe most countries allow vehicles to be unregistered if they will always stay on private property.

As to widespread or universal gun registration stopping crime, it must surely make the owner very reluctant to leave a telltale bullet or case at the scene of a crime. (I have always been surprised the authorities don't require guns to be semiautomatic, rather than the dreaded revolver or break-open shotgun, which carries its cases away.) There are all sorts of ways anyone may become at least a tentative suspect, and he doesn't want to be the 47th person to tell the police "I lost it fording a river, and I was just about to report it." If he actually is caught for the crime, he is going to say "I carried out the holdup without firing a shot because of my natural respect for human life." So the effect of registration doesn't go on record.
 
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