Would you be concerned about selling to someone like this??

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Mousegun said:
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or am I just being completely irrational?

About as irrational as all the agencies and individuals that turned their back on a bunch of dudes that didn't care about landing while taking flying lessons.
If you start every legal transaction with a pre-judgment about motives, then the terrorists have already won.

The failure wasn't that these Arabs were able to take flying lessons. And the schools shouldn't be and aren't legally tasked with looking after every aspect of their student's lives. What kind of privacy would we have if they were?

The failure was that the federal government let them in with forged documents and allowed them to stay long enough to do that deed. Those that didn't hold valid documents never should have gotten in. For those that held valid documents, as soon as they expired they should have been deported, by force if necessary. Obama's aunt should have been forcibly deported long ago. We are learning the wrong lessons IMO.

I'm sure that Homeland Security and all the various police departments are not the absolute favorite agencies of many THR members, but consider that their mantra is "If you see something, say something."

Sounds like something right out of the worst dictatorship. It might as well be "Rat out your neighbors for us comrade, trust no one." In other words, "We aren't doing our jobs, so we expect you to do it for us."

Haha. I'll bet JLStorm didn't think he would generate a philosophical discussion with this.

I'm out of this thread. Good luck with your sale sir.
 
It's your stuff to dispose of as you see fit. Sell or don't as you wish.

That said, I suspect that any number of THR members could have easily met the profile you mention at various points in our lives. While he could have some sort of nefarious intent, it could be that he's just trying to get the stuff while he still can.

I'm sure none of the members here have done anything like buying extra guns, extra ammo or extra reloading components lately. I doubt that any of us have downloaded any information from the Intertubz that would raise the eyes of an investigator should one take unusual interest in us. And surely, none of us (but you) own body armor. No, not here! :evil:

Without the full facts--which you do not have--I'd counsel care in making judgments such as you have made.
 
First of all, don't take any of this harshly. This is something you should have thought about before you listed it for sale. Once a bid is placed, you are obligated to complete the sale if it is legal. What he does with it later is not for you to worry. There are many legitimate reasons for him to be buying what he has been, and some shady reasons too. No matter what you sell, if you do it legally, you are done with it and cannot controll what folks do with that stuff. Contact him and throw him some ???'s to feel him out if you really need to for your piece of mind. Other than that, accept payment, ship it, and forget it.

If nothing else, it's only body armor, not a force field. 2 to the head and 1 to the chest negates armor. There are enough LEO's that can and will headshoot at the first indication of armor, so just having armor isn't the greatest thing.

Would it matter if it was an AK parts kit? Can you be sure that everyone that bought a kit will assemble it within the law and only use it for good? What happens if they misuse it and kill a group of children? Is it for you to worry cause you sold him the kit?

Remember, auctions an be bid on by anyone, if it is something you need to feel good about selling and want to make sure it gets a nice home, do it FTF. Don't list it on an auction. If you do, and get a bid, don't look at the bidder's history. Look at feedback only, that is all you should be concerned with.

This is not just for you to think about, but others as well.
 
Personally, I'm pro-choice. I think you have a right to sell or trade with whoever you choose, or not.

That said, I'm putting myself in the bidder's shoes for a minute.

"So, JLStorm, you want to kill the deal because you think I'm suspicious, after looking over my previous purchases. You offered this item for sale, without any conditions except price, and now you're considering backing out. Perhaps you should have listed in your description, *will not sell to anyone I feel weird about, or who bought some stuff I wouldn't buy, or whose state has nanny laws that they choose to disobey, or who might not be able to handle the item or has unrealistic expectations about it*. If I had seen a whole list of qualifiers like that, I probly would have bid elsewhere for the items I wanted.

But now that you bring it up, I'm not sure I want to do business with you either. I mean, where did you get this body armor, anyway? How can I be sure it's not stolen, or the last user didn't get killed while wearing it? I get an especially uncomfortable feeling about you after your 7th grade science teacher told me about the time he caught you with a Playboy magazine in the bottom of your locker, hidden under your gym bag. And all those times you broke the speed limit in your '71 Plymouth Duster, and the left rear turn signal was burned out for 6 months and you didn't fix it? This makes me fear you may secretly be an underworld crime figure in cahoots with the DHS, and this is a complicated sting operation to catch me with the proceeds of racketeering and take away my gun rights. So I'm withdrawing my bid, and you should probly just keep what you've got and not sell it to anybody. Ever again.

Sincerely,
Your Paranoid Bidder"


It's tempting to say, "people who don't trust each other shouldn't do business together". And yet, I can't help observing that in a climate of mutual distrust, my homestead would still be covered in jungle, because I couldn't buy a chainsaw to cut the trees or dynamite to blow the stumps or a tractor to pile them up. The local lumberyard would never have sold me the nails and concrete and roofing to build my cabin. I certainly wouldn't have any guns, except the ones I made myself out of old plumbing pipe salvaged from the county dump, because nobody would trust me enough to sell me one. I couldn't buy gas for my weedeater, lest I make a molotov cocktail and throw it at a police car. If we're all guilty until proven innocent, then commerce grinds to an abrupt halt, and society with it.

Here at THR, don't we believe in individual responsibility? How then could you lose sleep over what this guy might do with your body armor? If you sold him a kitchen knife, honed for slicing tomatoes, and he committed suicide with it, how is it your fault? You have knives in your own kitchen, and it's your own duty to keep them sharp for vegetables and not use them as instruments of torture. The deed can be good or evil - the tool is an inanimate object.

Do what you want. But If you decide to cancel the sale, I'll think better of you for calling the guy and being honest about why. "Dude, I got nervous about your full-auto stuff and don't want to sell you this body armor." Pay the listing fees or whatever, and handle it like a man - don't whimper around like some... some kind of... liberal anti-gun political official, or something (that's the most insulting term I could think of at the moment).

There's my advice, worth exactly what you paid for it.

Parker
 
Thank you all so much for all of your answers and opinions. I have decided to go through with the sale after sleeping on it and in part due to your input. I have realized a few things.

  • he has been a repeat buyer from multiple vendors
  • All of these transactions are on the internet and can be easily tracked
  • I am acting like one of the scared people who I despise assuming everyone with guns wants to do harm
  • If someone has automatic weapons and the police are called, soft armor is not going to help much as they will not be using handguns.
  • I dont like the person I have become when I just assume someone who might want to make automatic weapons is bad or has bad intentions
  • As some mentioned body armor is not a weapon and other than hitting someone with it repeatedly, it will not cause arm to anyone.

Thanks all for your input and shame on me for thinking like this.
 
Would you check on someones back ground about drinking before selling them a car?
 
JLStorm,

The fact you asked this question is great - it shows you cared enough to dig into the issue. Whether you sell or not (you now say you will) is at least thought through.

I am very conservative (meaning: no more laws than needed, respect free choice and individuals). But this does bother me:

They have bought several parts that will allow them to convert these weapons into full auto.

I would want to know that they have a BATF tax stamp. I believe part of "freedom" is respecting the law, and that includes that full-auto is regulated and that is the law. I may or may not agree with that law, but I am going to respect it because I am a citizen. I may not want to be a "fink" or "rat" and call the BATF to report someone, but I don't have to aid and abet them in using a loop-hole to circumvent the law. Frankly, that we have a law tightly regulating FA and then allowing the free trade and sale of the parts is a bit crazy. That the anti-gun crowd doesn't push this agenda, instead of silly AWB's and fictitious "gun show loopholes" is beyond stupid, to me. They have a political "gimmee" to take, and they are too blind to see it. Jeez. Can you say, "low hanging fruit?"

Personally, i would call the guy and just say "hey, let's work out the shipping on this" and start a dialogue. Feel him out, see if he's cool. Then ask "hey, I noticed you bought a lot of FA parts. How hard is it to get a BATF stamp, I've been thinking about one?" If you have that discussion and everything seems cool, then go ahead. I like catspa's response because, though we differ perhaps on the result, we both view dealing with the issue head on, verbally with the guy the right choice. I do lots of on-line transaction with guns and accessories, and this is always the correct way to work out differences or confusion.

If you don't want to do that level of checking, then try to evaluate your upside/downside as if it were a stock purchase. I used to be a professional trader, and I was taught/learned to thoroughly evaluate, as best as possible, the upside/downside to any transaction. This required trying to quantify and monetize a lot of intangibles. Let's try to run through this here:

1) Pros/upside:

a) By selling now, you get your asking price today/quickly. Cash in hand.

2) Cons/downside:

a) You refuse him, sell to someone else at the same price in two weeks. Opportunity cost on $250 (notional cost of body armor I'm guessing) for two weeks in today's economy/inflation rate = $0.48 (5% simple annual interest rate)
b) Buyer is planning a rampage, your items are part of it. Factor emotional cost of that, as well as time lost to LE inquiry (and press inquiry following that).
c) Buyer is actually a straw buyer, is really an employee of the HPC/Brady Bunch affiliate. Going to do an expose article about ease of acquiring a FA gun and body armor.

Assumptions:

a) item is fairly priced in a free, liquid market
b) That the chance the buyer is an anti-gun crusader or unstable is greater than "zero."

Result:

It is not worth $0.50 to me to take on the risk of Risks/Con arguments b) or c).

So your upside is limited to $.50, and your downside is a lifetime or worry and or guilt. Is that a good trade to make? Just because something is legal, DOES NOT make it ethical.

Would you check on someones back ground about drinking before selling them a car?

Let's analyze this type of thinking ethically. There is a presumption that the purchaser of a car is going to use it to move himself about the roads of this country. There is a presumption the purchaser of a full-auto fire control system is going to, um, use them to create fully automatic weapons. That he wants to add my body armor to his inventory, in an age of electronic tracking and Patriot-Act era lack of privacy rights, is a different thing than selling a car. It would take a lot of said alcohol the presumptive car purchaser is theoretically abusing to make me loose my judgment enough to equate the two things.

One raises certain ethical questions, the other does not. Again, just because something is legal, doesn't make it ethical.

Regardless of the ethics of whether he should be allowed to freely purchase said FA components or armor, the real issue is YOUR risks/downside. In this case, with the information you have in hand, I would focus on minimizing my risks in today's world. The information you now have in hand is different than selling to someone with an unknown history, and your risk/reward profile changes dramatically.
 
I have turned away many buyers of items because the person gave me a bad feeling. I am under no obligation to sell anything to anyone. PERIOD!

Not to long ago I almost sold a gun to a guy ftf. He gave me a strange feeling and I didn't go through with it. A month later he blew his brains out during a police standoff.

He didn't look like a creep or act to strange but there was just something about him that sent off some warnings. I sleep a lot better knowing I trusted my gut.
 
Bottom line. How would you feel if you had sold the body armor to the guys that robbed the bank in North Hoolywood?

No it's not illegal to own it.

No them not having it wouldn't change the fact that it happened.

Yes it is easier to stop a threat/criminal that doesn't have it.

Yes you'll sleep better knowing that it wasn't your sale that caused officers to lose there life trying to stop them, when the first one could have done it if it wasn't for the armor.

So to answer the OP question, each person must answer my question to theirself. I'd have no problem stopping the sale. I wouldn't lose one bit of sleep over it.

Those that said they'd sell it, would you sell to a gun to a guy at a gunshow that gave you an uneasy feeling? With less evidence of (possibly) shady behavior. There again, I'd have no problem not making the sale.

Wyman
 
Well if it's not from you I am certain he'll buy the armor from someone else.


Otherwise,

A contract for the sale of goods becomes voidable if the goods are destroyed or go missing. :cool:
 
Seems that guns advertised in the classifieds of the newspaper and those offered for private sale at gun shows with a big sign stating no background check, no sales tax, no questions are 20 to 50% higher priced than guns from dealers.
 
I did send the person an email by the way stating my concerns, especially since they live in CA. Im not even sure if the body armor is legal in CA. So that may shoot the deal down. I figure they will either respond to the email and set my mind more at ease (even though I am much more ok about the whole situation now) or they will not reply and I will know that something was wrong.
 
If you were a bartender, would you sell more alcohol to someone who looks intoxicated?? Perhaps the guy is always loud. Would he go out and DUI?? Is it legal since he is >21? Do you know for sure that he is intoxicated??

You better know because as a bartender it is your responsibility to know and you are held liable for any injury or deaths that occur if found DUI. That is a no brainier backed up by volumes of case law. Bartenders and the Establishments they are employed at have been held liable civilly for a DUI arrest and conviction even with no injuries.

The NFL, NY Giants and the vendor that ran the beer sales lost a multi million dollar suit last year for just that. Thinking go ahead with no repercussions can have a negative effect if not thought out.

Even the sale of a motor vehicle can bite one in the butt. A local MC shop was sued civilly and settled when they sold a high powered bike to someone not capable of handling it. Of course they crashed and sued. He made out well.

Some states bar the use of body armor during the commission of a crime. where would that leave the seller of that body armor? Not being a lawyer I don't know but it is food for thought.
 
trust your gut

what a merchant chooses to sell or not sell is an entirely different bandwagon than the government TELLING the merchant what he can or cannot sell.
 
I received a response from the buyer. He stated that the vests are legal in CA (I looked this up and confirmed) and that he knows those parts are only legal to own and not install without the tax stamp. He seems like a pretty honest guy with good intentions. I feel pretty comfortable with everything at this point.
 
I have turned away many buyers of items because the person gave me a bad feeling. I am under no obligation to sell anything to anyone. PERIOD!
I'm no damn captain of industry, but If this is your intention, DON"T OFFER IT ON AN AUCTION SITE! That's just plain bad business. One or two times of telling the high bidder that his money is no good is going to get you nowhere. If you want that great of control over your buyer, sell it FTF, or on a BB!
 
Perhaps you should wait

Personally, I only sell FTF on stuff like that. I always check ID and licenses or, LEO cred before selling. A legitimate buyer should not have a problem supplying ID. It is your armor, so use your best judgment. If the guy seems questionable you can walk away or dig deeper into his background. If you really want a sale, I would do no.2. Is he armed security? Is he a LEO? Is he a gangster? Find out.

Shooter429
 
Seems that guns advertised in the classifieds of the newspaper and those offered for private sale at gun shows with a big sign stating no background check, no sales tax, no questions are 20 to 50% higher priced than guns from dealers.

Not where I live:D
 
are you work for ATF, i would go with my gut but either way get all their legal information to CYA cover your azz.... but your call... that is what i like bout private sale...
 
Go with your gut feelings. They have NEVER steered me wrong. The only times I've gotten into trouble is when I've not listened to it and gone and done the opposite.
 
PROFIT - PROFIT - PROFIT - PROFIT - PROFIT - PROFIT - PROFIT - PROFIT

Sell it and take a nap and wake up with money.
 
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