Zero Tolerence

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Back to the OP, I find zero tolerance laws to be inefficient in dealing with any issue.

That being said, I could easily get behind stricter penalties for parents when children get their hands on loaded firearms. If you allow a four year old to kill himself because he was able to access your gun, you should be held criminally responsible for it. Your loaded gun is your responsibility.

I have a four and two year old. Children that age are too young to trust no matter who you are and what you think you have taught them. My two year old, for example, would probably find a way to fire a chambered pistol if he got his hands on it. It is my responsibility to ensure that does not happen.
 
I couldn't disagree more with you on this. I raised 6 children who are all now grown adults with their own children, and I never had to lock any of my guns up. Education is the answer. I exposed them to firearms from the very get go. I let them experience the report, recoil and see first hand what happens to something, and animals after being shot. Seeing all the blood guts and gore when they are shot makes for a very good part of the training. I didn't buy them toy guns, I didn't allow them to play video games that involved shooting people or involved violence, but hunting games, yes. Now as grown adults, I have asked them if they ever even once picked up one of the guns in the house, the answer was, not once did they violate that rule. And the reason was pretty simple, in that, we saw what they do, what they are intended for, and never had a reason to want to mess with them. All the time they spent hunting, target shooting and helping to clean the weapons instilled in them, that their is no purpose in handling them other wise.

There will always be accidents, but by hiding and locking guns up you are only compounding the curiosity of the forbidden, and unknown, we are talking about and dealing with children. What happens when you set your firearm down for a moment or so while getting dressed, or they are at a friends house and have the opportunity to play with one, or for what ever reason, and then they seize the opportunity, and pick it up to explore? One of my boys came home from a friends house very upset one afternoon and demanded I call their friends parents, because he was messing with his Dad's guns. He couldn't get home quick enough to let me know about this deadly situation, which is exactly how my kids perceived this. he also never went back over to that kids house, because he realized how serious the threat to his safety and welfare was.

You are approaching this just like one of the anti gun proponents does. That is no different than thinking that removing guns from law abiding citizens is going to have any impact on gun violence, it doesn't work at all! My 4 yr. old and 6 yr. old grand daughters have loaded handguns in front of them every day in their home, and mine, and it is of absolutely no concern to me, or they're Mom and Dad. They know what a gun is capable of, they have seen what guns do to an animal or watermelon, they have heard the report, and felt the recoil, and they have a respect for them that was created by education through exposure, not by hiding them or locking them up. I really can't express myself with words, just how wrong you are about your approach. The first time they get a chance they will explore them if you tried to isolate them from your firearms, I promise.

GS
 
There will always be accidents, but by hiding and locking guns up you are only compounding the curiosity of the forbidden, and unknown, we are talking about and dealing with children.
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There is no reason at all to try and create an either-or condition where children must be either cut off entirely or must have unfettered access.

My kids have more exposure to and access to firearms that any kids I've ever known. They've all been shooting with some frequency since each was THREE years old. (My daughter had fired both a .45 ACP 1911 and a 7.62 AK before she was four.) They've had firearms de-mystified to an extreme degree. They have all the access they request to have, at any time. They help clean, help reload (with much care for lead safety), they see guns probably daily and handle them themselves at least monthly. The oldest helps keep score at our IDPA matches and is preparing now to start in competition when she turns 12. They can all recite the four rules and a couple can go on at some length regarding competition and range-specific rules as well. They "get" guns.

And every one of my firearms stays locked up when not in my immediate control. Always.

There is NO acceptable reason to "trust" a child's imperfect reasoning and impulse control with life-and-death consequences. That's not trust, that's an improper imposition of responsibility on someone who cannot fully shoulder that responsibility through no fault of their own.
 
Sam1911 said:
There is NO acceptable reason to "trust" a child's imperfect reasoning and impulse control with life-and-death consequences..
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That could be said of ANYONE though. My dad taught me from a young age about guns. Once I reached the age of about 8 or so and had been shooting with him for years, he trusted me enough to not lock them up. I was less impulsive as an 8 year old than I know many 40 year olds to be.

Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure...but I trust some children more than I trust many adults...that includes adults I see down at the shooting range.
 
The actual term is "HOPLOPHOBIA" - described as an irrational fear of firearms.
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Yes, and I believe that the word was invented by Jeff Cooper.

But most people don't have the slightest idea of what it means. On the other hand the term "gun-phobia" is clear and probably doesn't have to be explained to those who never read, and will probably never read, any of Col. Cooper's books or articles.

Most child related shooting incidents involve a loaded firearm that is literally left laying around, suposedly hidden but not secured. If there are children in a household firearms should be under lock & key. This doesn't necessarily require a safe (although that's probably the best option). In most cases a deadbolt keyed lock on a closet door in the master bedroom will work. In extraordinary circumstances something more may be required.

And yes, as soon as children are old enough to learn - and are interested - they should be taught.
 
That could be said of ANYONE though.
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Could be, maybe. But it SHOULD be said of those young children in our care and under our responsibility. We owe that to them, and protecting them from the harm their actions and poorly considered decisions may cause to themselves and others is job ONE as parents.

What someone else may do to him or herself or others, when they are not under my care and are of an age we consider to be accountable for the consequences of their actions, is not really my concern.
 
There is no reason at all to try and create an either-or condition where children must be either cut off entirely or must have unfettered access.

My kids have more exposure to and access to firearms that any kids I've ever known. They've all been shooting with some frequency since each was THREE years old. (My daughter had fired both a .45 ACP 1911 and a 7.62 AK before she was four.) They've had firearms de-mystified to an extreme degree. They have all the access they request to have, at any time. They help clean, help reload (with much care for lead safety), they see guns probably daily and handle them themselves at least monthly. The oldest helps keep score at our IDPA matches and is preparing now to start in competition when she turns 12. They can all recite the four rules and a couple can go on at some length regarding competition and range-specific rules as well. They "get" guns.

And every one of my firearms stays locked up when not in my immediate control. Always.

There is NO acceptable reason to "trust" a child's imperfect reasoning and impulse control with life-and-death consequences. That's not trust, that's an improper imposition of responsibility on someone who cannot fully shoulder that responsibility through no fault of their own.
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Perfect.
 
Personally, my primary is kept close to the bed in an area the kids don't normally stay in unattended, and is always secured with a lock. (Also, chamber empty.) The realistic probability of violent and fast home invasion of my domicile are very, very low. I'll take the extra second or two given up for unlocking and chambering a round.
 
The parent or adult or gun owner passed out, handgun left laying on the floor or end table, an unsupervised child playing with the gun. An unsupervised child drowns in bath, drink poison, falls from window, falls into a pool, ingests drugs, all these things happen lots more than gun accidents. Supervised children do not have these things happen to them. Failure to parent is the cause, not guns.
 
I thank you 1911 for putting this in proper perspective, as I know I over reacted to the initial approach by the OP. I just get very defensive about the whole isolation approach, it doesn't teach them anything, and in fact only disassociates them with firearms, and the education of. I think your approach is an excellent and effective one.

My family has as well always been closely involved with firearms since they came into this world. My kids all participated in shooting sports, working at the trap and skeet club as score keepers, involved in reloading, hunting, breaking down and cleaning firearms at the shooting clubs, and at home.

GS
 
Well, I'm only 25, and I have a 15 month old daughter. my guns are either out of reach & unloaded, or locked up unloaded. the only gun that is usually loaded at all times is my CCW, which is always in my possession when loaded.... but as she gets older, I'll just put guns that aren't being used at the moment in the safe. if she wants to clean it or use it, I'll be there with her. But I'm sure someday, I'll have to trust her to be able to access a firearm in case of an emergency, By then, I'm sure she'll be a responsible young adult.
 
I understand where your coming from, but honestly, the best thing is to teach the children from an early age that firearms are tools (not weapons and NOT toys) that can be dangerous in the wrong hands. Make their hands right, and they will never want to mess around with it out of curiosity. Its the best of both worlds, you can get to your gun and you know your kids won't.
 
^^That's how I look at it too.

Remember something. There is never enough security. When your kids are a little older, and they have some time to themselves, THEY WILL FIND A WAY TO GET TO THEM. Locks and secrecy will not stop them. You don't think your kids are that clever, but they will figure out the spare key. They will play with the combination lock. You have to take away the REASON they want to look in the first place. Respect has to be the first priority.
 
I understand where your coming from, but honestly, the best thing is to teach the children from an early age that firearms are tools (not weapons and NOT toys) that can be dangerous in the wrong hands. Make their hands right, and they will never want to mess around with it out of curiosity. Its the best of both worlds, you can get to your gun and you know your kids won't.
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No. They are children - it is not possible to teach childhood out of them, no matter how good a parent one may be. It's not possible to know what they will or won't do, far less so than adults. To those who raised kids with guns lying around and got away with it, God bless - you were wrong but lucky.

Training, absolutely and the more the better. Access, never.

Sam has it perfect as noted above. There is NO acceptable reason to leave guns lying around, none - even if there are normally no children around. It only takes once. Dead kids aren't fixable. Lock them up, every time.
 
People are all individuals. Growing up, I think I always could have gotten to the shotguns and .22. I never pointed one at anyone, ever.

That doesn't change the advisability of keeping firearms secured.

John
 
There is NO acceptable reason to "trust" a child's imperfect reasoning and impulse control with life-and-death consequences. That's not trust, that's an improper imposition of responsibility on someone who cannot fully shoulder that responsibility through no fault of their own.
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In your opinion, when does a child cease to be a child? Legally we all understand it's 18. Should you keep unsupervised gun access from them until they turn 18? I find it a bit ridiculous when in most states a person can drive a car unsupervised at 16.
 
orionengnr said:
Zero tolerance, in any context, is really just zero thought.
Life is a bit complex, and complex problems are never solved by simple, one-size-fits-all answers.

And that is why politicians and administrators seldom "solve" anything. They want to "do something"...and they do. But the cure is often worse than the disease.
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I agree.
 
I grew up in a home where firearms were anything but taboo. AS soon as I expressed a curisosity, I was taken to the basement, where Dad brought each gun he owned out, one at a time, and explained how they worked, basic gun safety, etc. Then we grabbed the .22's stepped outside, and I got to do my first shooting, a day I still remember clearly. Guns were never locked up when I young. They were in a glass-fronted gun cabinet, that wasn't even capable of being locked. From age 12 or so, I no longer even had to seek out parental permission to shoot anything we had...Living on a ranch, I had free reign over 10,000 acres to shoot and hunt on....all that was expected was me either telling a parent where I was going, or leaving a note indicating my location. I spent hours and hours plinking prairie dogs, pop cans, feral pigeons, etc. When i was a teen, another gun cabinet was bought to house the ever-growing collection, this one lockable. However, it was in my bedroom, and I had access to the keys at all times. What I'm getting at is that education is the answer, not legal mandates as to what we should or have to do with our firearms. I had free access to firearms from a young age, and rather than be a dangerous concept, it simply fed my love of shooting and hunting.
 
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It's all about belly buttons. Most people have one, and they are all different, although many are very similar.

I think education is a necessity and secure storage an almost failsafe method, but they should be a choice, not a requirement.

I think that most parents would be so devastated that they would be in their own personal hell if their child was killed by their own negligence. Their lives should already be destroyed. Why beat a dead horse?(note, this does not reference parents that don't act as parents...the judge and jury can decide that case by case)

Please stop trying to take away my freedom and liberty.
 
I grew up in a home where firearms were anything but taboo. AS soon as I expressed a curisosity, I was taken to the basement, where Dad brought each gun he owned out, one at a time, and explained how they worked, basic gun safety, etc. Then we grabbed the .22's stepped outside, and I got to do my first shooting, a day I still remember clearly. Guns were never locked up when I young. They were in a glass-fronted gun cabinet, that wasn't even capable of being locked. From age 12 or so, I no longer even had to seek out parental permission to shoot anything we had...Living on a ranch, I had free reign over 10,000 acres to shoot and hunt on....all that was expected was me either telling a parent where I was going, or leaving a note indicating my location. I spent hours and hours plinking prairie dogs, pop cans, feral pigeons, etc. When i was a teen, another gun cabinet was bought to house the ever-growing collection, this one lockable. However, it was in my bedroom, and I had access to the keys at all times. What I'm getting at is that education is the answer, not legal mandates as to what we should or have to do with our firearms. I had free access to firearms from a young age, and rather than be a dangerous concept, it simply fed my love of shooting and hunting.
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My brother, sister, and I grew up the same way and so did my children. Not only did we have a healthy respect for what a firearm could do, we had respect for our father and his rules. That being said, I now have a gun safe and when the grandchildren or neighbors children are around all except my carry gun are locked up. Unfortunatly times have changed.
 
I too own a safe, but don't even have any children. That said, thats my OPTION, and should not be a legal REQUIREMENT....I still have loaded guns outside of the safe in my home, and don't plan on changing that. They are secured appropriately when others may be in my home.
 
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