Negligent Discharges:

Interesting.
However, the way they assembled the data by way of news stories is a little wonky. It also would be better if the data was presented standalone, rather than with the author's conclusions since some of his extrapolation appears to run counter to the graphics. For instance, pegging down to the state map where they've used the Brady score to contrast lax/strict gun laws to number of NDs, the pattern claimed to be absent is in actuality poking through the surface a bit. The same thing happens in the days of the week graphic. Since it's already established that most of the NDs happen at home, the fact that weekends see a higher frequency isn't surprising (more people home on these days). But the author hastily concludes it doesn't matter when, because all things are equal in the seven day week. Ummm... no?

Either way, the info alone is good. Sad to see that a dog was responsible for one of those shootings though. I like dogs. I suspect that poor mutt felt bad for shooting someone.

And in other news, you're more likely to be killed while driving by someone who's texting while driving.


Honestly I thought the article was going to be about types of firearms instead of everything but.

This sure did leap to conclusions. Chance of death from an ND when the source has enormous selection bias, as stated in the intro. Not only are the no-injury ones essentially never reported, but many minor injury NDs should also not make it into the paper. They are reported to the police if you go to the hospital (not all of them again!) but not to the paper.

So... lots of charts and conclusions for a really slight source of info to work from.

Good Ol' Boy said:

And in other news, you're more likely to be killed while driving by someone who's texting while driving

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Everytime I mount my motorcycle I wonder if I'm coming back in one piece. Never had that thought of guns and I've been places and seen things.

A negligent discharge is when someone makes a mistake and fires a weapon.

An accidental discharge is when a firearm malfunctions and fires under conditions it should not fire under.

Firearms do not ever cause negligent discharges.

How many gun cleaning accidents are really suicides?

P5 Guy said:

How many gun cleaning accidents are really suicides?

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How many "gun cleaning accidents" were someone playing with a gun?

Jammersix said:

A negligent discharge is when someone makes a mistake and fires a weapon.

An accidental discharge is when a firearm malfunctions and fires under conditions it should not fire under.

Firearms do not ever cause negligent discharges.

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I will tend to disagree, from a professional POV. If I rant — as I have lately — that there's almost no such thing as pilot error, user error, etc. because the design of the system is at fault at the core, then the same has to go down to machinery systems. There are certainly guns that are easier to misuse, result in let's call it for now, "unplanned discharges."

Take as an extreme case to prove the point the Mk19. To load the gun you at one point have to pull the trigger to cycle the system and get the round in the ready-to-fire position. This is not pull-the-trigger to strip a pistol, where it should be unloaded first so we have a better argument that an ND at this stage is operator error. This is Load The Gun, then Pull The Trigger. If you mess up at all (say, distracted during the process... happens a lot, commonly found in accident investigations) it is very easy to go back to the process, and pull the trigger to finish loading... on a completely loaded gun, and an HEDP round or three go flying across the parking area.

There are similarly bad issues for any number of civilian firearms, some of which are designed to reinforce bad habits, so encourage NDs. But the principle holds that training is not especially effective and is perishable. The vast, vast majority of firearms users have little or no training, the vast majority of those with training had it long ago. We need to encourage use of safe systems, so knowing which ones are bad would be useful information.

A negligent discharge is when someone makes a mistake and fires a weapon.

An accidental discharge is when a firearm malfunctions and fires under conditions it should not fire under.

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I disagree. ALL unintentional discharges are accidental. SOME of the accidents are due to negligence. The term Negligent Discharge is way over used.

Lets apply the same logic to car crashes. Some one is stopped at a stop sign attempting to make a left turn. They are doing everything legal, they carefully look both ways, they are not driving impaired or distracted, but they misjudge the distance and speed of another vehicle when they pull out causing a crash. It is an accident. The person who misjudged the speed and distance is still accountable for any injuries, deaths or property damage. But they are NOT going to be charged with negligence. They will not be going to jail. They may well be sued, but they won't be facing criminal charges unless there is negligence.

On the other hand if that person were driving distracted, or were under the influence of drugs or alcohol. If they did not come to a complete stop and carefully look before turning then it is still an accident. But the accident was caused by negligence and they will be going to jail.

From a legal standpoint the same principle applies to unintentional firearm discharges. They are all accidents, unless proven to be intentional, then it would be murder, or attempted murder.. If prior to the accident someone did something that was negligent that caused the accident then it could be considered negligent. You also have to consider the type and amount of training that person has to determine negligence. Unless the person responsible went to jail and was convicted of negligence by a jury, it wasn't a ND. And by definition a unintentional discharge cannot be negligent unless there is damage to property or life. No matter how irresponsible, a discharge that goes harmlessly into the ground cannot be negligent.

I understand the desire to hold ourselves accountable and limit the number of unintentional discharges. But the recent trend of calling all unintentional discharges negligent is a huge mistake on our part. This simply wasn't the case until just a few years ago. The term "Negligent Discharge was almost unheard of until 5-10 years ago. And it is a term anti-gunners have adopted in an attempt to show that gun ownership alone is a negligent activity. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.

I'm 62. I have had 4 NDs my entire life. One was a failed hair set. Three was an old Winchester external hammer pump 12g that the seration to hold the hammer for safety let down or cocking was so worn it was for all purposes smooth. Thumb slipped off going for safety let down.
The common factor that made none of these incidents catastrophic was fully abiding by gun safety rules.
One other I witnessed was while dove hunting. A friends sxs 12 internal hammer. Fired both at birds. Reloaded. Closed the breech and both barrels went off. The sear had broken. Again non catastrophic because gun safety rules followed.
Rules don't always stop catastrophic failures but following them with vigilance can near eliminate them being catastrophic.

I don't know about the legal aspects. I posted what I teach.

You make a mistake, the weapon fires, it's an ND in my book. The rest is arm waving. Being a nice guy, I'll listen politely until you're done waving your arms.

But nothing will change.

skeeterfogger said:

I'm 62. I have had 4 NDs my entire life. One was a failed hair set. Three was an old Winchester external hammer pump 12g that the seration to hold the hammer for safety let down or cocking was so worn it was for all purposes smooth. Thumb slipped off going for safety let down.
The common factor that made none of these incidents catastrophic was fully abiding by gun safety rules.
One other I witnessed was while dove hunting. A friends sxs 12 internal hammer. Fired both at birds. Reloaded. Closed the breech and both barrels went off. The sear had broken. Again non catastrophic because gun safety rules followed.
Rules don't always stop catastrophic failures but following them with vigilance can near eliminate them being catastrophic.

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Wow! I'll be 59 this month and I can count the number of NDs I've had on my third hand. I've been around guns my entire life.

Texas10mm said:

Wow! I'll be 59 this month and I can count the number of NDs I've had on my third hand. I've been around guns my entire life.

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Been shooting 52 years. Guess I've been fortunate.

Jammersix said:

I don't know about the legal aspects. I posted what I teach.

You make a mistake, the weapon fires, it's an ND in my book. The rest is arm waving. Being a nice guy, I'll listen politely until you're done waving your arms.

But nothing will change.

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We’ve had these insipid semantic battles with the “accident” people before.

You’re right to save your breath, it’s not worth the effort.

I wholeheartedly agree with your definitions, and I also teach them the same way.

And the “accident” analogy used is also wrong... that scenario is a preventable collision caused by drivers’ negligence (in this case a violation of law)... which is termed “the primary collision factor” when assigning fault. The “accident” exception is if it’s caused by an unforeseen and unintended failure of vehicle, roadway, a rockslide burying the car, etc. which is termed “accidental” when assigning fault to the driver(s).

Stay safe.

Good Ol' Boy said:

And in other news, you're more likely to be killed while driving by someone who's texting while driving.


Honestly I thought the article was going to be about types of firearms instead of everything but.

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13 teens killed each and every day while text messaging. And that does not include the people they kill. Not to mention how many adults kill with a phone every day. The closet thing I have seen to death this past year was a young child running and late for the bus. A approaching can was coming and thank God the alert Bus Driver saw what was going to happen and laid on his horn. The driver of the car, at the sound of the horn finally brought his head up and skidded almost into the child. A fraction of a second more and the child would have been killed. Needless to say, I hate cell phone drivers with a Passion. And text message driver that kills someone should get the death penalty. Someone caught test messaging should automatically loose their license permanently.
Sorry to get off topic. Thanks for the report. I see Virginia ranks high in accidental shooting. Not surprising. If you saw the fools at my local gun range, you would know exactly why.

Good Ol' Boy said:

And in other news, you're more likely to be killed while driving by someone who's texting while driving.


Honestly I thought the article was going to be about types of firearms instead of everything but.

Click to expand...

I used to be scared of drunk drivers. Now it's the texting and driving ones that bug me because I don't go out at night. I almost got hit on a straight stretch of road in clear conditions.
My only experience with an ND was while unloading a lever action. Unless you count doubling because I didn't know you don't milk the trigger on a high powered semi auto rifle.
Because of the lever gun incident, I won't buy one without a safety. And half cock doesn't count except while hunting.

One thing I have always had concern is ND's possible with shotguns loaded and leaning against things like a car etc. Had a guy killed in my area not to long ago. Had a friend shot himself in the thigh last year, and two others at my local indoor range. A mother also was in the news and shot her child as she was getting in a Car. A military guy killed himself, when he came home to clean his gun. I shot myself in the heel with a high end target air pistol that when I brought it home, the trigger was set so low, a bump just sent a round off. Also had a high end pellet rifle that went off when I took off the safety.
You have to be focused all the time.

PS my Brother just had his truck totaled by a text messaging jerk. And in my area, School bus's get rear ended all the time. Please tell me how you can be so stupid to not see a big 40' long yellow bus with all kinds of lights flashing?

When you are staring at a 5" screen 12" in front of your face.

Riomouse911 said:

We’ve had these insipid semantic battles with the “accident” people before.

You’re right to save your breath, it’s not worth the effort.

I wholeheartedly agree with your definitions, and I also teach them the same way.

And the “accident” analogy used is also wrong... that scenario is a preventable collision caused by drivers’ negligence (in this case a violation of law)... which is termed “the primary collision factor” when assigning fault. The “accident” exception is if it’s caused by an unforeseen and unintended failure of vehicle, roadway, a rockslide burying the car, etc. which is termed “accidental” when assigning fault to the driver(s).

Stay safe.

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Yeah, there is always something that can be deemed negligent with any accident.

Bfh_auto said:

My only experience with an ND was while unloading a lever action. Unless you count doubling because I didn't know you don't milk the trigger on a high powered semi auto rifle.

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Ah! My only true "unintentional discharge" also! A .22... Marlin? Unloading for a friend so we could pack up his stuff and leave. Cranked out all the rounds till it stopped, then thee more times. Opened the bolt, look inside. See what I perceive to be follower, not ammo. Close bolt. Lower the hammer (not pulling trigger): bang. Into a corner of structural members, no damage, etc.

Gun had 5 more rounds in it. Poor design and/or maintenance had hung them up, poor design (I say!) means you cannot inspect if loaded under any reasonable circumstances. Fired when hammer lowered, finger off the trigger.

ND? AD? Something else? You tell me.

shoobe01 said:

Ah! My only true "unintentional discharge" also! A .22... Marlin? Unloading for a friend so we could pack up his stuff and leave. Cranked out all the rounds till it stopped, then thee more times. Opened the bolt, look inside. See what I perceive to be follower, not ammo. Close bolt. Lower the hammer (not pulling trigger): bang. Into a corner of structural members, no damage, etc.

Gun had 5 more rounds in it. Poor design and/or maintenance had hung them up, poor design (I say!) means you cannot inspect if loaded under any reasonable circumstances. Fired when hammer lowered, finger off the trigger.

ND? AD? Something else? You tell me.

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Without some kind of decocker mechanism you cannot lower a hammer without pulling the trigger.

Thumb on hammer spur.
Pull trigger.
Move hammer 5° or so forward, so it clears the sear engagement.
Release trigger.
Move hammer until all the way forward.