Lessons from a confrontation today

Yep, the assessment made to leave the situation as soon as you could is answer A, B, and C.

Sounds like you're relying too heavily on your carry piece. In that situation the LAST thing I'd be doing is fingering my weapon! I've got two weapons that are more suited to that situation, I call them "fisticuffs". The dude wasn't posing a mortal threat, at least not yet. It sounds like he wanted a fist fight. Then give him one! Don't pull a gun on him just because he wants to engage in violence, that's exactly the kind of **** that gets CCW people in trouble! If he beat you and was stomping you out, then sure, pull on him, but short of that he guy was unarmed and presenting a challenge.

If you're the kind of guy to make a fist-fight a lethal encounter then you have no business carrying any kind of weapon, period. **** like this happens all the time, you don't react by pulling a firearm on someone. Give the guy fair warning if you're not up for a scrap, but pointing a firearm at an unarmed belligerent is asking for a Darwin award in my opinion.

Disclaimer: I am too young to get a CCW and don't even own a pistol at the moment. I do however live in Detroit so I've "been there".

Being killed by a single punch is not par for the course though, and Seattle has some pretty awful neighborhoods. Even downtown at night can be pretty seedy. There's always a chance that I'll get into a crash when I climb into a car, but I don't assume it's going to happen.

One man shopping in a crowded mall received a savage beating while others looked on, resulting in the death of the assailant when the victim shot him at point-blank range.

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Sounds pretty typical for people in the Seattle area, the middle-class has forgotten how to stand up for themselves and others. Naturally had I been there I'd have intervened, PERIOD, but I guess we can't expect people to all behave like men nowadays...

If someone suckerpunches you, it's a totally different situation; a suckerpunch is a deliberate, plotted act that is usually followed by a stomping, stabbing or robbery. It's totally understandable to respond with severe force then, but this guy nearly got into a "trailer-park tussle". Two dudes getting into it and then exchanging blows ain't the same as some skeezy mother popping out and hitting you with a punk blow.

I'm just going over the ethics, I haven't even mentioned the legality. If you use a firearm on an unarmed man in a fistfight I (and I'm just guessing) imagine you'd be facing manslaughter at the minimum. Is it worth it? Personally, if I felt I HAD to, I'd aim for the legs or crotch and run, definitely not report it, but maybe I'm more skeptical about our justice system than most...

I'm not giving anyone a fistfight, and I'm not willing to take a potentially fatal beating from anyone.

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QFT

If someone suckerpunches you, it's a totally different situation; a suckerpunch is a deliberate, plotted act that is usually followed by a stomping, stabbing or robbery. It's totally understandable to respond with severe force then,

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You seem to be forgetting the fact that the initial "suckerpunch" can knock you unconscious or kill you. You might not be ABLE to respond after that.

Two dudes getting into it and then exchanging blows ain't the same as some skeezy mother popping out and hitting you with a punk blow.

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Uh sure whatever. I can see it now, "What ho good fellow! I doth challenge thee to a fair fight! Take up thine gauntlet!"

Uh sure whatever. I can see it now, "What ho good fellow! I doth challenge thee to a fair fight! Take up thine gauntlet!"

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It's usually different when it's two guys at a dog park arguing over BS than it is when someone jumps you in the ghetto. I've been in both situations. If anyone ever pulls a gun on me, especially in the case this guy mentioned, I'm going to take it off them and pistol whip them good. Or get shot trying to do so. You simply don't pull a firearm on someone for challenging you, that's ridiculous and would get you in a ton of legal trouble. Just my opinion.

I Scaned through the Responses, I'm sorry if I missed this One BIG possible Problem.

The Wife Stepped Between You and The Bad Guy!!! IF the Situation was Not Diffused Buy that act, She Would have Been in your line of Fire!! or Would have become a Hostage.

maybe you should have some Signal For your Wife to Leave the Area or Distance Herself.

This is Just an Opinion!!!!

If anyone ever pulls a gun on me, especially in the case this guy mentioned, I'm going to take it off them and pistol whip them good.

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Glad you has more control than that jerk.

Sorry, I only read #1

Again, sorry! The control here is you of your Wife!

My Grandkids are now, twin Girls 15, boy 16 and last one, 19 years of age. So a lot of coming and goings over those years, to and fro, day and night. My Wife can not fight, I can, my Wife does not carry a gun, I do.

Whatever starts to happen, I have seen it start to happen, well b/4 my lovely Wife. Normal reaction, avoidence, if not possible, deal the cards, my Wife does not step in, she steps behind.

Pro's have several lines of defense, before going lethal, firearm is the last resort, get some OC spay, works on people and dogs, if you carry, have some verbal commands for your Wife and loved ones that maybe with you if a situation happens, robbery, mugging. Talk and practice verbal command, they may not notice the threat, but when you say the word behind, she gets behind you without thinking about it, or if you say go, or have a code name like shasta, that means you will stand your ground and they get out of the area while calling 911, practice it, Pro's practice all the time, you practice a fire drill at your home incase of fire, go through some self protection drills with your family, get professional tactical handgun training above and beyond CHL training ,stay safe,

Well Excuse Me RAinbowBob, I like how you left out My Apology in your Post.

Quote; From Post #107 "I'm sorry if I missed this One"

If the guy walked up to you and pushed you, how would you have handled that scenario?

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Run, a fistfight, or use OC spray. Unless you are at a huge physical disadvantage, that's not where you should be using your firearm

Really?

http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=9968442

This is the reason I like THR. I am enlightened every time I visit. I have always been of the mindset that you shouldn't carry if you have a temper or the inability to react wisely to the overall picture including the aftermath. Its educating to know the thoughts that go into the reactions and lessons learned. I think I would have responded in a similar fashion as the OP.

Shady, multiple attackers probably counts as a serious physical disadvantage

I've read through all the post and only have a little to offer.

Society has changed, and maybe not for the better. If you carry a gun you need to be prepared to use it, but also be prepared to not use it. In short avoid situations that place you in need of your firearm.

I strongly encourage the OP, an aging ex-hippy, to read "In The Gravest Extreme," by Massad Ayoob. It will give some serious food for thought. I've been to the local dog park, and I've left more than once to avoid a confrontation. That to me seems a small price to pay in comparision to the legal bills and possible jail time of being involved in a shooting, let alone a fist fight.

IMO the communication skills of the OP need to be improved, as I interpreted his report as he was responsible for escalting the situation. One never knows how a person will respond, but how one acts does influence the reaction of the other person.

In short, my advice is to avoid confrontation and come back another day. For those of you that care what the PUNK, and yes I know the prison meaning of PUNK, thinks has no business carrying a gun. When you carry a gun you have to check your pride at the door of your home when you leave it.

If you spend your time avoiding confrontations you will be amazed at how many confrontations you get in where lethal force is justified, and that's too many times. There is no such thing as a good gunfight.

BikerRN

In this particular instance, the other fellow was between us and the exit - and coming at me.

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Sounds like a time to use a loud clear voice:

"Get Back! Leave Me Alone!"

You can do this and maybe work your way around the badguy to the exit. Nothing says you have to take a straight line to the exit. Also consider having your bride climb over the fence and you hand the child and then your dog to her. Then you yourself climb over the fence, but I realize this puts you at a serious disadvantage by occupying your hands and turning your back to the threat.

I'm not claiming to have all the answers, just throwing some options out there. The "Get Back" will help to paint you as a victim to any nearby witnesses that turn to see the confrontation after they hear you.

BikerRN

Myself, I haven't been back to places where I've had to leave once to avoid a confrontation. After I leave somewhere once to avoid a confrontation; I don't go back there.

In fact, if I hear of a serious assault; I avoid the place it occurred. There was a bar I used to go to occasionally. I never witnessed a fight there or any type of confrontation whatsoever. I heard on the radio one night that someone got their throat cut there. I didn't return for over ten years and, even then, only after talking with police officers who worked the area.

If someone talks to me belligerently; I am not going to say anything. When someone is truly looking for a fight then nothing you can say will de-escalate the situation in most cases. Since saying what I would like to say would be unwise; I'll opt for saying nothing.

Now, my rules of engagement are more liberal than many here, also. I can't run and might be able to crank out a fast walk for a ways. Blind in my left eye. Open laminectomies in my cervical and thoracic spine. I don't know if I can take a punch anymore without serious injury and I'm not going to make the experiment to find out.

If I realize trouble is coming then I'll be trying to leave while dialing the cops on my cellphone. If trouble catches me and tries to hit me then I'll be shooting. I am quite willing to let my physicians describe the state of my health to a jury and let that jury decide if I acted reasonably under the circumstances.

Very Interesting.

Couple of comments - First I am 50 and have carried a firearm on and off for 32 years. I am a large man. I am not a weak man, I bench press close to 300 pounds. I have never drawn a weapon and have only showed my weapon once resulting in stopping a robbery before it began.

Not to brag, but I have never lost a fist fight including one about 10 years ago in a hockey game against a guy (Canadian hothead) close to my size and 12 years younger than I am. I am not afraid. (Funny thing, today we are friends).

Now, all that said - I avoid all confrontation and would have left the park without comment. Further, if the dog park was empty, or he was the only person there, I would not have even stopped. Generally, bad things only occur in very small groups - in my experience, aggressors don't generally like witnesses.

Unfortunately, society today promotes antisocial behavior. This guy represents the attitudes in society I experience more and more. The current political environment promotes the us vs. them attitude not unlike the hatred we had in the 60's.

I avoid these situations at all costs.

Although I am out of shape, unless you put me down in a confrontation I will "leave a mark". My mantra: I don't start the confrontations, I end them. If I had felt my family was threatened or cornered ,I would have done what ever it takes to protect my family and myself. One of the biggest challenges is to determine where to make a stand. I do not under any situation, want any aggressor within 10 feet of me. The quicker the aggressor approaches this distance the quicker I will escalate the situation.

Remember, fear, stress, and unknowns can lead us down a path where we can take action we will regret later. I can't stress enough - AVOID SITUATIONS LIKE THIS!!

(frankly, I'm surprised that none of the "men" there were willing to become involved in that one).

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I'll tell you why. It's not a bar and no one is liquored up. Being the white knight is great and all until you get yourself in a fist fight and when the cops show up your going to say what? "I was trying to protect this stranger's honor?" As a cop what would you be thinking? "No he's trying to get in her pants." is that a fair statement? Next thing I know I'm sitting in jail next to the skinny runt who spouted off to her and all I wanted to do was play catch with my dog.

If the guy walked up to you and pushed you, how would you have handled that scenario? Would you have taken a step back and tried to remove yourself from the situation? Would you have responded in kind, would you have maybe exposed your guy, drawn your gun, or perhaps even fired your weapon?

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If our bully got close enough to shove him our man here has already lost on a number of levels. What happened to the "comfort zone" and "myspace?"

He's already stated that he was backing up, if the enraged dog owner decides to close then it's time to Cowboy Up because he's a made himself a threat at that moment. Our friend here has already sent the clear message that he's attempting to defuse the situation by leaving. There is no reasonable explanation for this man to come any closer. Even if our boy had decided to stand his ground and rattle off a string of obscenities at him, it still does not justify the tough guy to run across the park and start a fist fight.