45-70 for deer?

[Obturation]

So you are still reposting this bogus nonsense and ignoring the responses??? There is no truth or fact in there anywhere. On what planet is a 500gr .458 at 1300fps "vastly" less effective than a .30-30??? We have handily taken 2000lb water buffalo with less. Even Wikipedia is more accurate:

"For a decade after 1873, there were several hundred, perhaps over a thousand, such commercial hide hunting outfits harvesting bison at any one time, vastly exceeding the take by American Indians or individual meat hunters. The commercial take arguably was anywhere from 2,000 to 100,000 animals per day depending on the season, though there are no statistics available."

"In June 1882, more than 600 Lakota and Yanktonai hunters located a big herd on the plains far west of the Standing Rock Agency. In this last hunt, they got around 5,000 animals."

Yeah, the old 45-70 has stomped anything ive ever shot with it, drt. Just saying.inside 200 yards i would feel confident on almost any game besides an elephant, i doubt there is a caliber that inspires confidence for elephant. Anyone who doesnt understand this must have the wrong ammo or not be shooting the critter right.numbers are numbers ,results are tangible.

 

[Obturation]

It would be about the last cartridge I'd suggest for this

I dont know, the 25acp is kind of weak, i might say its the last cartridge i would suggest for this.

you are severely limited in range

The 45-70-500 in testing penetrated 3 1" boards and buried i think 6 inches in to the dirt at over 2000 yards as tested by the government.
I understand you dont like it much, however you are kind of making things up to try to make a point. Not to be rude but i would take the old 45-70 a hundred times over before i bet on a 30-06 for a big bear. Bigger hole and more mass = better penetration and more juice leaking out. If im off here someone who isnt biased please correct me.

 

[JeffG]

I shot and hunted with the 45/70 for decades. Very efficient killer. It's just a slow .458 Winchester Magnum. The only thing gained by increasing velocity was better trajectory, and a sore shoulder. Nowdays, I load my .458 Winchester Magnum to 45/70 specs because I prefer bolt action. Same bullets, same trajectories and energy.

 

[troy fairweather]

i love my siamese mauser in 45/70, with a good load it will stack holes at 100 yards, and i have shoot 160 grain up to 580 grain lead brass/copper and jacketed bullets.

 

[JeffG]

i love my siamese mauser in 45/70, with a good load it will stack holes at 100 yards, and i have shoot 160 grain up to 580 grain lead brass/copper and jacketed bullets.

Nice rifle!

 

[troy fairweather]

Nice rifle!

thank you sorry for the crap photo. when it's warmer out i will get some range pics.

 

[.308 Norma]

I already have an older 30-30. Are there better options?

Something's not adding up here, John. At least not for me. You started another thread asking about the best deer gun with "medium recoil." I myself handle recoil pretty well, but I would hardly consider standard 45-70 loads as having "medium" recoil.
To answer your question though - yes, there are definitely better options than either a 45-70 or a 30-30 for deer hunting - depending on where you deer hunt of course. And if you're concerned about recoil, as you seemed to be in your other thread, there are definitely better options than a 45-70 for hunting deer - no matter where you deer hunt.

 

[john fisher]

Something's not adding up here, John. At least not for me. You started another thread asking about the best deer gun with "medium recoil." I myself handle recoil pretty well, but I would hardly consider standard 45-70 loads as having "medium" recoil.
To answer your question though - yes, there are definitely better options than either a 45-70 or a 30-30 for deer hunting - depending on where you deer hunt of course. And if you're concerned about recoil, as you seemed to be in your other thread, there are definitely better options than a 45-70 for hunting deer - no matter where you deer hunt.

Well I mean I prefer less recoil when I can but can take a lot. I'm just trying to decide what guns would be worth it since I don't have a lot of money. I can probably afford to spend around 100 dollars for a gun every year since I'm still young. College and it's not free. I'm trying to decide whether I should get something that packs a good punch or something that I'll just need to have good shot placement. I'm not sure, I love lever guns and only have a 30-30. Now don't get my wrong I love that lever gun, but I'd like to have something else so I can have more of a variety. I love the fact that I can take the recoil like nothing, but at the same time it doesn't have great range. I recently shot a javelina at 150 yards and was satisfied with that, but I also saw deer that were 250 yards away and wish I was able to take a shot that far. I live in brush country, but in some areas there can be 200-400 yard clearings that were man made. I'd only like to have to get one more hunting rifle and maybe in a few years I'll be ready for another. I just have the basics, a wingmaster I got for 140 dollars, a 22 that I got for 100, and my 30-30 that my dad helped me out in order to get it. I've always wanted a 45-70, but at the same time I want something with less recoil and with range. That is basically why I'm asking many questions.

 

[Riomouse911]

You may want to keep your ear to the ground for a BLR in .308. It's a lever gun, a fantastic mid range (For deer, easily 400 yards with practice) round that shoots any of a huge variety of pointed bullets for better trajectories, can take anything from coyotes on up to elk or moose, ammo is everywhere, doesn't kick like a mule, can be scoped easily.

The BLR can be a bit pricy, so keep an eye out and maybe with some savings and/or a layaway plan one will drop into your lap someday.

Good luck, and stay safe!

 

[.308 Norma]

I've always wanted a 45-70, but at the same time I want something with less recoil and with range. That is basically why I'm asking many questions.

Oh, okay. I got it.
Nothing wrong with asking questions, and I apologize if I sounded like I thought there was something wrong with it. Besides that, THR is a great place to ask questions about guns, shooting and hunting...lots of good, experienced and knowledgeable folks here.

College and it's not free.

Been there! If I were you, I'd save up, get by with my 30-30 for a few years (seeing as how it sounds like thick, brushy country you're hunting now anyway) and eventually get myself a nice 30-06 with good glass. I love my 308 Norma Magnum, but the truth is, I killed antelope, deer, black bears, and elk for 30 years with my old 30-06 before I ordered my 308 Norma as my retirement gift to myself.
Heck, for that matter, I laid away a 264 Win Mag a few weeks ago. It's going to be my dedicated antelope and mule deer rifle if I can get it to shoot with the precision I want. But the thing is, like I said, I'm retired, I'm no longer worried about paying for college (not even for my kids anymore) and while we're not rich, my wife and I can afford a frivolous gun once in a while. If that 264 Win Mag doesn't shoot like I'm hoping it will, I'll sell it and move on to my next frivolous gun purchase.

 

[mustanger98]

Does this also have to do with the wounded deer thread? You can use just about any deer-legal rifle/ammo and think you're doing the best you can and make some rookie mistake. Adrenaline can make you do things you think you're not doing, and vice versa. It'll come down to the difference between punching paper and knowing you're actually going to kill something. Whatever you use... your current .30-30 or the rifles you want or think you need... you must be confident with it. Confidence is developed with experience.

Considering your .30-30, what kind of square range do you have access too? Let's say you can shoot 250-300yds, max. I'd advise you to explore your rifle's trajectory. Zero the sights long... 200-250yds... then, maintaining the same sight picture, walk the shots back closer to see the trajectory. A .30-30's trajectory isn't as high as a lot of folks think it is.

Good sights and knowing the trajectory makes a lot of difference. So does taking your time and being very very deliberate.

 

[Obturation]

but I'd like to have something else so I can have more of a variety.

Then no doubt it sounds to me like overall you need/want a low cost gun with some power and range. A bolt action .308 win or 30-06 will do great in that role. I think the .308 is cheaper to feed and a new rifle could be bought new under $400. If you want nostalgic then any number of great guns in 30-06 like another person said. 45-70 doesnt sound like what youre looking for, you can double the price for a levergun in this caliber unless you get real lucky . The other option is to save your money, buy the 45-70 youve been dreaming of, shoot the snot out it until you know it inside and out and use it with great effect on anything you know you can hit. I know what i would do , you can choose either and neither one is wrong. Just depends on your expectations.

 

[Varminterror]

I’m sure a lot of folks get tired of me trotting this out whenever we have one of these, “45-70 for deer” threads. But if a guy is opening a “dead horse thread” based on that topic, they have to expect repetition...

This is what 250yrds looks like with a Marlin 1895GS 45-70, Bushnell Elite 3200 3-9x, and simple factory Hornady Leverevolution 325grn FTX’s.



Mind you, the 30” of hold required to deliver that bullet to a measly 250yrds with the ol’ punkin chunker wouldn’t have been necessary until more than 450yrds with a standard 30-06 load. There’s a lot of power on the 45-70’s giant bullets, but getting them on target at range takes some doing, much more difficult than a high velocity bottleneck cartridge - or even your .30-30.

I love hunting with the .45-70, but for what you’re doing, it’s not more rifle than your 30-30, it’s just ANOTHER rifle, and you’re not likely in a position where the cost of redundancy makes much sense right now. Your Dirty 30 will drop deer to 250-300 without argument, as would the 45-70.

Don’t put yourself into the same common traps a lot of college guys fall into:

1) Rose colored glasses and faulty expectations: most college aged hunters have visions of world wide hunting safaris, regardless of their future ability to make that happen. So you buy a rifle now with the intention of traveling later for elk, bear, what have you... the cost of those out of state points, licenses, tags, taxidermy, meat processing (or gear to do it yourself), and travel will all cost far more than the relatively inexpensive rifle we’re talking about here. Most guys don’t ever leave their own state for hunting, even once in their life, so that “someday rifle” keeps waiting for someday... wasted inventory investment on dreams that would never happen...

2) Underbudgeting your future self: if you ARE able to make these traveling hunts once your degree yields a serviceable income, future you will be able to buy the rifle far more easily than current you. Maybe today you buy a lesser quality or lower condition rifle than you might be able to easily 5yrs from now...?

So what that adds up to for a lot of guys - instead of using what you have and spending the money you might be able to save for real hunting experiences with your 30-30 in the next couple of years, you scrimp towards a sub-optimal Rifle you might never get to use, and you miss out on those experiences.

 

[40-82]

If it was me, looking at older cartridges that are seeing a "come back" I'd probably look at a rifle in .35 Whelen. This is especially true if as you wrote, you want "to travel to other places to hunt". The .35 Whelen was introduced to deal with African large game other than "The Big Three", as well as being an excellent round in North America.

LD

Colonel Whelen designed his .35 Whelen for hunters who might be in the way of big bears and other large game, but who were unable to afford a magnum Mauser action for the .375 H&H. When Winchester came out with the .375 in the Model 70 in '36 that kind of killed his idea for the Whelen cartridge. That and most of the hunters going north went for guided hunts and weren't people just wandering around the wilderness on their own. If you can afford a week's hunt in Alaska for big game, the last time I checked it could go $20,000 and up, scrimping on the cost of the rifle isn't that much of an issue. So for practical purposes, the kind of man Whelen envisioned didn't exist in significant numbers.

For myself, I love the Whelen. I've killed a number of caribou, black bear, and a sheep with one. Ninety-five percent or better of what I've done with the Whelen could have been accomplished with a .243, but in those long Arctic nights sleeping with something big a hand's reach away felt good.

But back to the 45-70: I've killed maybe 35-40 whitetail with them. Using cast bullets, it works quite well. You can eat right up to the hole. Although the truth is, similar but less available cartridges like the 40-65, 40-82, 38-56, and 38-70 will do the same job on whitetails with significantly less recoil. None of these are good choices for long range. Sure, dialed in I can hit an eight-inch gong at 450 yards with any of them, but that's on a known distance range. If your range estimation is off fifty yards you miss. More significant is hang time. At long range, I can fire the 45-70, stop what I'm doing, and start making a sandwich, while I'm waiting to hear the impact of the bullet on the target--Ok, that was a tiny exaggeration--but it would be perfectly possible to hold perfectly for a deer's chest cavity at long range with a 45-70, and during the flight time of the bullet the deer could step forward and end up gut shot.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Despite the hyperbole it was never used as a buffalo gun. The cartridge was introduced in 1873. Most of the buffalo were already dead and laws were passed in 1874 banning buffalo hunting to preserve the handful left.

Yes, the .45-70 absolutely was used as a buffalo gun and no, buffalo hunting didn't end in 1874. In the late 1870s, the Army was actually giving out ammunition to buffalo hunters as part of a tactic to eradicate food supplies for Native Americans. That ammunition was of course .45-70. The Southern Heard wasn't considered eliminated until 1879, then the focus turned to the Northern Heard.

 

[Random 8]

Well I mean I prefer less recoil when I can but can take a lot. I'm just trying to decide what guns would be worth it since I don't have a lot of money. I can probably afford to spend around 100 dollars for a gun every year since I'm still young. College and it's not free. I'm trying to decide whether I should get something that packs a good punch or something that I'll just need to have good shot placement. I'm not sure, I love lever guns and only have a 30-30. Now don't get my wrong I love that lever gun, but I'd like to have something else so I can have more of a variety. I love the fact that I can take the recoil like nothing, but at the same time it doesn't have great range. I recently shot a javelina at 150 yards and was satisfied with that, but I also saw deer that were 250 yards away and wish I was able to take a shot that far. I live in brush country, but in some areas there can be 200-400 yard clearings that were man made. I'd only like to have to get one more hunting rifle and maybe in a few years I'll be ready for another. I just have the basics, a wingmaster I got for 140 dollars, a 22 that I got for 100, and my 30-30 that my dad helped me out in order to get it. I've always wanted a 45-70, but at the same time I want something with less recoil and with range. That is basically why I'm asking many questions.

Clarity is a wonderful thing. Forget the levers. Still a cool factor in the .45-70, but what you need is a good, serviceable, 30-06 or .308 bolt gun that has been well used but not abused. Don't overlook a .270, although it would be a tad light for elk. Such can be found in a Savage at a decent gunshow for around $300 or less. If this is too much, consider trading or selling your 30-30. You should get decent glass, but won't want to break the bank. Closer to fall, you'll find good deals on base model Burris, Nikon, Leupold or Vortex scopes for under $200. Often your shop will mount and boresight at no extra charge. This will give you a solid reach on any game in North America (except Grizzlies, and if you're hunting them, you can afford another rifle) to 200 yards and further if you get your shooting there. Ammo will be common and inexpensive, allowing for plenty of practice. Take a good long look at the rifling on any used rifle. A bore light is best, but you can remove the bolt and look down from the chamber end at a light colored surface. Also look at the crown and muzzle. Anything that looks dark, rough, etc is a no-go, there will be other rifles. I would consider an M1917 or Springfield sporter, but there are a lot of no go things to look for there, so don't unless you are with somebody very experienced with such animals.

 

[rodwha]

If old is something you fancy I’d maybe think of considering the .38-55 Win, .405 Win, and .44-40 Win.

But then I see you also talking about more range. Not sure how old old would need to be or if it’s even an issue, but there’s the .257 Roberts, 6.5x55mm Swede, 7x57mm Mauser, .30-40 Krag, .30-06 Spg, and .303 Brit. Or if old isn’t an issue you might consider the .25-06 Rem, .260 Rem, .270 Win, 7mm-08 Rem, .308 Win, .338 Federal and a few others. Ultimately ammo availability (and multiple options) should be considered.

There are the Hornady FTX ammo that extends range in the .30-30 or if you can get reloads you could load spritzer style bullets as long as you don’t have more than one in the tube. You could easily get to 250 yds nicely.

 

[mustanger98]

There are the Hornady FTX ammo that extends range in the .30-30 or if you can get reloads you could load spritzer style bullets as long as you don’t have more than one in the tube. You could easily get to 250 yds nicely.

As I recall, that Hornady FTX should get you out to 300yds. But, you'd still need to shoot it at the between distances so you see what the trajectory is doing. If your .30-30 and this load will get you a trajectory that, with a 6o'clock hold, will stay on a 10" paper plate out to 300yds, I'd say it's good to go.

 

[Varminterror]

.30-30 doesn’t offer a 10” MPBR anywhere near 300, no matter what bullet is used.

 

[rodwha]

Hard to say just how accurate his .30-30 would be with any load really. I’ve not known of lever actions being known to be highly accurate though.

I ran the numbers through my calculator. I’m at 900’ elevation and measurements are in 50 yd increments.

The 140 FTX has a BC of .277 (I wasn’t even aware they made a lighter version) and a velocity of 2465 fps (their ft/lbs are off as it shows it having 1889 and not 1943).

Sighted at 250 yds it’s trajectory is 3.2” 5.5” 5.9” 4.2” 0.0” and -7.0” which for me isn’t ideal (I prefer to stay within 4” but accept a bit more. Some feel 6” is great but I like a little more room for error).

Sighted at 200 yds that bullet shows 2.1” 3.4” 2.8” 0.0” -5.2” and much more to my liking.

The 150 RN with a BC of .186 and velocity of 2390 fps and sighted at 200 yds has a trajectory of 2.7” 4.3” 3.5” 0.0” -7.0”. Might say it’s ok out to 225 yds using the point blank system which I like, especially if using open sights, though I’d beg to differ that shooting deer to 225 yds is a good idea without optics.

The 160 FTX has a BC of .330 and velocity of 2400 fps. Sighted at 250 yds it looks like this: 3.2” 5.5” 5.9” 4.1” 0.0” -6.8” and at 200 yds this: 2.2” 3.4” 2.8” 0.0” -5.1”.

So 300 yds, to me, seems to be stretching it. With an accurate rifle/shooter maybe so, along with optics. Otherwise I’d say 250 yds it’s a fair deal.

Now if one were to Ackley Improve the rifle and handload using spitzers (I thought this was a great idea with a T/C Contender) 300 yds with optics likely all day long.

 

[mustanger98]

Barrels/loads can be funny. There can be a big difference between any of our rifles and the manufacturers test barrels. That's why I said get outside and shoot it extensively and find out.

 

[SharpDog]

it is well known that any cartridge over 10 years old will no longer be effective on deer because of their supreme adaptability. The National Association Of Firearm and Ammunition Manufacturers recommends that you please upgrade to the latest Super Whiz-Bang cartridge of the year to ensure your safety. This is a public safety announcement.

 

[Ks5shooter]

45-70 yes.......do it

 

[H&Hhunter]

inside 200 yards i would feel confident on almost any game besides an elephant, i doubt there is a caliber that inspires confidence for elephant. .

.500 Nitro Express. Every long time elephant hunter I’ve ever talked too says they have total confidence in the .500 NE on elephant.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Not to be rude but i would take the old 45-70 a hundred times over before i bet on a 30-06 for a big bear. Bigger hole and more mass = better penetration and more juice leaking out. If im off here someone who isnt biased please correct me.

As far as a fast handling easy to carry bear protection rifle I agree the .45-70 is a great choice. For actual hunting of even the largest bears I’d take a .30-06 with 200gr controlled expansion bullets all day every day. Phil Shoemaker arguably one of the most experienced brown bear hunters alive wrote an interesting article on that very subject.