ATF opening huge cans of worms?

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Once again, let me remind everyone that there is no such thing as "constructive intent." The ATF are not mind readers, nor do they pretend to be. The operative phrase is "constructive possession." That is, if a gun or receiver is far enough along in the manufacturing process to be easily completed as a full automatic (regardless of intent to do so), then it's a "machine gun" and comes under the NFA. The issue is really what "easily completed" means. Whether the owner intends to complete the gun is irrelevant. At least one court has said that if a gun could be made into a machine gun in 8 hours or less in a well-equipped shop, it's a machine gun. Other courts have been more stringent. But anyway, it appears that marking the sear pin hole is enough to push the receiver over the edge. (This might be challenged on the ground that the marking is in the wrong location.)

What?! A machinist with a fancy drill press, assuming he had a FA FCG already on hand, could convert any lower into a machinegun in way less than eight hours. By that definition, every AR in the country would be considered a machinegun.:what:
 
IWI had an issue with the first run of their Galil ACEs here in the US. There was a mixup at the factory in Israel, and receivers with the third hole were used to construct semi-auto guns for sale to mere mortals like us. IWI noticed and voluntarily notified the ATF as to avoid any appearances of impropriety on their part.
 
What?! A machinist with a fancy drill press, assuming he had a FA FCG already on hand, could convert any lower into a machinegun in way less than eight hours. By that definition, every AR in the country would be considered a machinegun.:what:

That's why I think a lot of firearms owners who know a thing or two don't obsess too much over not having select-fire. If the balloon goes up and the zombies come out, I have a suspicion there'll be a lot more machine guns in civilian hands out there than what is listed in the NFRTR.

Select-fire outside of a combat situation is a whole lot of fun, but of limited utility. Even if FA guns were Title 1 items, I don't think people would "rock and roll" too much since it's just turning money into noise for the most part. A friend of mine has a legal M16 and realistically he just does little bursts with it. Mag dumps on happen when he has friends come to the range with him.

However, just because it is of limited utility doesn't mean it should be restricted. If a firearm can handle having a select-fire option, I think it should be there.
 
What?! A machinist with a fancy drill press, assuming he had a FA FCG already on hand, could convert any lower into a machinegun in way less than eight hours. By that definition, every AR in the country would be considered a machinegun.

Exactly. However... the "readily converted" language became part of the law with the Gun Control Act of 1968. By that time, Colt had been well into the production of the civilian AR-15, which had been approved by the ATF (under the prior law) as not being a machine gun. It would have been a practical impossibility to go back and reclassify all the AR's already in civilian hands. So, we had a de facto grandfathering. All the millions of AR's and similar guns (so-called "assault rifles") made from then until now have been legal because, in effect, the government decided to look the other way. (And it did so because, early on, these were niche weapons. They were not as widely distributed as they are today.) I'm convinced that if the AR-15 had been introduced after the GCA '68, it would have been classified as a machine gun (and there would have been no sense to it, since you could just as easily -- or rather, with just as much difficulty -- have bought a full-fledged M16).

This anomalous situation is something that we, as gun enthusiasts, can be grateful for.
 
That's why I think a lot of firearms owners who know a thing or two don't obsess too much over not having select-fire. If the balloon goes up and the zombies come out, I have a suspicion there'll be a lot more machine guns in civilian hands out there than what is listed in the NFRTR.

Select-fire outside of a combat situation is a whole lot of fun, but of limited utility. Even if FA guns were Title 1 items, I don't think people would "rock and roll" too much since it's just turning money into noise for the most part. A friend of mine has a legal M16 and realistically he just does little bursts with it. Mag dumps on happen when he has friends come to the range with him.

However, just because it is of limited utility doesn't mean it should be restricted. If a firearm can handle having a select-fire option, I think it should be there.

There are few guns left that can easily be converted to full auto without having lots of specific, legally incriminating parts already on hand. The idea of converting your semis to full auto if the crap hits the fan isn't practical unless you plan on having FA parts lying around, which I think is inviting trouble. While it's not necessarily illegal to have those parts (especially seeing as how they often come with parts kits), I think going out of your way to try and obtain them specifically would probably raise flags, as I imagine companies who sell them probably keep pretty close track of who's buying them. Definitely not advisable.

Of course the net effect of this is that it's easy to get FA weapons if you don't care about breaking the law, so any criminal who wants one would have no difficulty in obtaining it. In a world where you can order drugs online, I doubt they would have any difficulty getting those parts without leaving a paper trail, and then all it boils down to is a drill press. Even in a land where the government had waved its magic wand and made guns disappear, it's actually easier to make a full auto weapon from scratch than it is to make a semi auto one. Any idiot with an old mill could make a crude open bolt SMG out of stuff from the hardware store, whereas making it semi automatic would require someone with a much higher level of skill.

If the crap did ever hit the fan, I think you would see more converted weapons in the hands of criminal syndicates than in the hands of law abiding citizens. They already have the network in place to traffic in such parts, and their network would only grow stronger and more expansive in an economic collapse, whereas civilian sources for those parts (like Brownell's) would be instantaneously unavailable. Even if ecommerce did somehow stay online for a period of time (which I don't see being possible in any real SHTF scenario), they would sell out in no time and not get resupplied. More than likely, previously legitimate supply chains for those parts would then be rerouted to the black market.

So yea, I wouldn't expect civilians to come into possession of FA weapons in a SHTF scenario, but I would fully expect to encounter gangs armed with them. I would also expect gangs to come into possession of military and police stockpiles, so I think you would see more stolen military weapons than converted ones actually. Either way, you gotta love these great laws congress comes up with. No matter how you cut it, they always ensure the average criminal is more well armed than the average law abiding citizen.
 
I should have been a little more clear, sorry.

What I'm getting at is kind of what you are saying, but not necessarily from a conversion aspect. Yes, if the SHTF, you'll see a lot of third holes on receivers, but not universally. You'll also see a lot of select-fire guns that probably just sat in an attic for decades. Plus the odd gun purloined from a government source. Plus guns picked up from those gangs you speak of. Gangbanger does a mag dump because he's feeling macho, and a civilian defending himself with a bog-standard AR drops him. Civilian now has a machine gun.

Plus, there's also bump-fire and binary triggers, which get you most of the way there. :thumbup:
 
I have a cheap Romanian AK Draco I use primarily as a truck gun. The Y on the receiver marks the spot where the third hole would have to be drilled for the 3rd pin.
I have no interest in having a full auto bullet hose. Anything more than the 3 round burst kit I learned to use with the M16 Colt in 1980 is a total waste of ammunition for my personal benefit. If you were in a combat situation full Auto like the SAW might be necessary to lay down cover Fire for the squad to move. Even the 223 has so much muzzle climb under full Auto Fire anything more than three rounds wastes precious ammunition.
I bought the cheap Draco new and I did not mark the receiver myself, that was done by the press and die in Romania during the manufacturing process.
It saddens me to know that that would be even remotely construed as conspiracy or intent to make it a fully automatic firing weapon. I do earnestly wish to abide by the law.
Criminals don't let the silly little things bother them they break the law or laws as a course of normal business.
Anything that might place me in that category unwillingly is just not even fair play.
 
Wow, we have people here who think AR15s should be classified as readily convertible to MG's? That's some powerful foolishness, I have to say...

If an AR is too easily convertible, so too is every semi-auto with a disconnector, which is to say, all of them. That's an idiotic extrapolation of the NFA if there ever was one. So is putting an arbitrary "eight hour window" or similar to convertibility without a whole heck of a lot of other (actual) evidence of intent.

TCB
 
What?! A machinist with a fancy drill press, assuming he had a FA FCG already on hand, could convert any lower into a machinegun in way less than eight hours. By that definition, every AR in the country would be considered a machinegun.:what:
Nope, AR15 receivers are narrower internally than M16 receivers so that it takes more than just drilling a hole to convert them. The interior of the receiver has to be milled out.
 
Nope, AR15 receivers are narrower internally than M16 receivers so that it takes more than just drilling a hole to convert them. The interior of the receiver has to be milled out.

Which would take a halfway experienced machinist all of about ten minutes to hog out.
 
Once again, let me remind everyone that there is no such thing as "constructive intent." The ATF are not mind readers, nor do they pretend to be. The operative phrase is "constructive possession." That is, if a gun or receiver is far enough along in the manufacturing process to be easily completed as a full automatic (regardless of intent to do so), then it's a "machine gun" and comes under the NFA. The issue is really what "easily completed" means. Whether the owner intends to complete the gun is irrelevant. At least one court has said that if a gun could be made into a machine gun in 8 hours or less in a well-equipped shop, it's a machine gun. Other courts have been more stringent. But anyway, it appears that marking the sear pin hole is enough to push the receiver over the edge. (This might be challenged on the ground that the marking is in the wrong location.)
It takes a manufacturer LONGER than eight hours to make a fully automatic weapon?
How do they stay in business? I would respectfully submit that an experienced person,
in a well equipped shop, should be able to turn a Mauser into a chain gun, in EIGHT HOURS.
 
At the Shot Show Colt showed a M16A1 Reissue I believe it was called, had not only AUTO markings but U S PROPERTY exactly like my M16 has. Supposed to be available this spring.
The price that Colt is asking for this ($2499 MSRP) is ridiculous. Not only that, but the authenticity of this "reissue" is questionable. I have an actual, full-auto M16A1, untouched from the factory, and it has a birdcage flash suppressor and the later type of buttstock swivel. Colt went a little too retro for this "reissue." The prong flash suppressor and early butt swivel are pre-A1. Judging from the buttstock swivel, I'll bet that it doesn't have a trap compartment in the stock.
 
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