Auto safety Release (patent Pending)

[Jim NE]

At the very least, I see this as a way to put an aftermarket safety on a pistol with an external hammer that didn't have a manual safety from the factory. For people who want a safety on their non-safety guns (of this type), this could be of value. It has merit in that sense. The only issue is that it looks like it would take a fair bit of machining to install the safety, is this correct? I presume it would take a gunsmith to install.

I also wish you the best on your invention. It's nice to see people trying new things.

 

[Erhan]

Now i see,different countrys and different usages !İn Turkey the police carry the gun unloaded(empty chamber).safety first.!You have a different style of use.
..You want a sig 226 style..DA and no safety,just decocker..because of carry the gun in a holster, you think you ,dont need a safety for the trigger.İ will think about this style.
İ like it to lock the slide, trigger and hammer ,but release all safety in one move.
Maybe when i get the chance to produce,we will see in pratice wich is better...i see, there is no perfect system for every needs.We have to pick up the best for our needs

Thank you

 

[Erhan]

At the very least, I see this as a way to put an aftermarket safety on a pistol with an external hammer that didn't have a manual safety from the factory. For people who want a safety on their non-safety guns (of this type), this could be of value. It has merit in that sense. The only issue is that it looks like it would take a fair bit of machining to install the safety, is this correct? I presume it would take a gunsmith to install.

I also wish you the best on your invention. It's nice to see people trying new things.

Thats possible to do!But the modification must be made on the original slider..thats why,i dont think that this modification will be worthy! In your country labory is expensive and a new gun cheap..

 

[TomJ]

Erhan,
I hope this feedback helps. It's not meant to discourage you, but to give you honest opinions regarding your product and if possible, to address those objections in a way that makes your product marketable. Best of luck to you, as it's people like you that continue to drive innovation in the industry.
Tom

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Good point about cost of labor to make the modification. Maybe modify slides in Turkey?
Does the hammer need any modification?

I do worry about the moveable rear sight.

 

[Jim K]

The pistol shown in the video appears to be a (non-firing?) copy of a Beretta 92. That pistol, in normal operation, has a thumb safety that allows safe carry in a holster or case with the hammer down yet ready to fire. If additional safety is needed, the safety can be applied or the chamber simply left empty. There might be a place for the idea in converting older guns, but the modification might be costly and not applicable to many older pistols. I think the OP might study a number of guns so see how many his idea would be applicable to.
.
By the way, the idea of using the rear sight as a safety is not new, the idea having been patented by one J.M. Browning around 1898, though this application is a bit different.

Jim

 

[Erhan]

The pistol shown in the video appears to be a (non-firing?) copy of a Beretta 92. That pistol, in normal operation, has a thumb safety that allows safe carry in a holster or case with the hammer down yet ready to fire. If additional safety is needed, the safety can be applied or the chamber simply left empty. There might be a place for the idea in converting older guns, but the modification might be costly and not applicable to many older pistols. I think the OP might study a number of guns so see how many his idea would be applicable to.
.
By the way, the idea of using the rear sight as a safety is not new, the idea having been patented by one J.M. Browning around 1898, though this application is a bit different.

Jim

Yes,you are right.i found that during patent research.they call it safety sight..but the sight doesnt lock the slider, disable the trigger and doesnt flip back automatic..safety sight was a 2 position switch and locked just the firing pin
by pressing down.to release the safety you have to cock the hammer and pull the sight up..seems not very practical...

Good point about cost of labor to make the modification. Maybe modify slides in Turkey?
Does the hammer need any modification?

I do worry about the moveable rear sight.

The slider self is moveable too..if good manufactured,the movement of the sight wont affect the accuracy of the gun.
Thank you

 

[Erhan]

The pistol shown in the video appears to be a (non-firing?) copy of a Beretta 92. That pistol, in normal operation, has a thumb safety that allows safe carry in a holster or case with the hammer down yet ready to fire. If additional safety is needed, the safety can be applied or the chamber simply left empty. There might be a place for the idea in converting older guns, but the modification might be costly and not applicable to many older pistols. I think the OP might study a number of guns so see how many his idea would be applicable to.
.
By the way, the idea of using the rear sight as a safety is not new, the idea having been patented by one J.M. Browning around 1898, though this application is a bit different.

Jim

Hi,empty chamber is sure save,but it take to much time,and two hands,to load the gun!
My goal is to carry the gun safe loaded,but open all safety and cock the gun in one move of the thumb..
But,if you prefer,carry gun unsafe with losded chamber,you can use my systen this way too..if you leave the sight in up position,the gun work like a normal DA semi auto..like the sig226 or any other hammer operated gun...there is no difference..

 

[Erhan]

The disscussion we made upside the post,was about the fast usage of the gun..in videos, they show always drawing the gun in unsafe and loaded position..just draw the gun and pull the trigger.i accept that is fast!!
But, when there is a safety lever,you have to switch before you can shoot,then iam not sure,wich one is faster!cock with the thumb or open the safety with the thumb!.i believe there will be different thoughts ...

 

[Davek1977]

AS had been said, we train here to sweep the safety off as part of the draw. there is no pause or stopping to flip the safety, as its done instinctively. This is not unsafe, as you claim, but rather how the majority of us have been trained. Whether simply relying on the double action pull as a "safety" or actually using the manual safety, both are faster than relearning a manual of arms which requires thumbcocking the hammer. It compromises one's grip, and goes against what many of us have already learned to do.

 

[Erhan]

AS had been said, we train here to sweep the safety off as part of the draw. there is no pause or stopping to flip the safety, as its done instinctively. This is not unsafe, as you claim, but rather how the majority of us have been trained. Whether simply relying on the double action pull as a "safety" or actually using the manual safety, both are faster than relearning a manual of arms which requires thumbcocking the hammer. It compromises one's grip, and goes against what many of us have already learned to do.

i understand that.İn fact for a pro safety off will be faster.But you can use this system this way,too.if you leave the sight up,then you can use it like any DA gun..No problem.Then you have a thinner gun with the decocker in the middle!And not at the side of the gun..İs this a problem ?

 

[JONWILL]

From the video it is obvious you have put a lot of time and effort in your system.

I think as others have said, most, if not all of handguns have a firing pin block in them or a thumb safety.

I don't like anything complicated at all. Has the gun been drop tested to see if the rear sight in your system might break in a fall from 5 feet onto concrete.

 

[Erhan]

From the video it is obvious you have put a lot of time and effort in your system.

I think as others have said, most, if not all of handguns have a firing pin block in them or a thumb safety.

I don't like anything complicated at all. Has the gun been drop tested to see if the rear sight in your system might break in a fall from 5 feet onto concrete.

As the rear sight is spring controlled and not constant,i dont think that is break.But before something like this come on the Market,they will perform a lot of torture test to be sure about that...

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I know that when you going to a shooting place,everybody cock the gun for the first shoot manually..because that means less power and a cleaner shot..agree?

That's absolutely incorrect. Anyone who caries a gun for self defense should be practicing a proper draw that involves disengaging a manual safety on the draw, transitioning their finger to the trigger in one smooth motion, for a smooth and controlled double action squeeze. The device in question does not make a gun safer or any faster to get on target than the factory designs already offered on current production guns.

Anyone who wants a gun with a single action can buy one of several models that have that option. And I believe a safety lever with a more intuitively located safety switch will be much faster than this option.

I would not buy a gun with this device on it. It over complicates designs that are already proven safe. A quality fit holster will keep a safety lever from being accidentally moved.

I'm sure you'll sell a few of them, but I will not be a customer.

 

[Erhan]

Anyone who wants a gun with a single action gun can buy one of several models that have that option. And I believe a safety lever with a more intuitively located safety switch will be much faster than this option.

Wrong!!in every SA gun you have to cock with your thumb.and open the safety(if exist)...in my design the safety opens during cocking...so,please tell me how you can be faster?




















*

 

[Erhan]

The Hammer was designed more than hundred years ago,for cocking with the thumb during draw!
Gunmens performed this action billion times!!Now you tell me,thats wrong!
Two guns,one have a pulled hammer and the other one not!wich ones shot will be accurater??
You never need to think about the safety position on the gun again!you just need to pull the hammer!thats all you have to do!
First pull dont fire!you can cock the second time with the trigger...
İ lock the slider too...if your holster is tight,this will be an advantage!
Safety and decocker in one place..
Tell me a design,where you can control the shot with two fingers!!İf you hold the gun with two hands,one finger is on the trigger,the other hands thumb is on the sight.Press down the sight--safe dont press-fire so easy and quick.
İf you under stress and your fingers are flickering,this can be a life saver!!
The first important point on a gun is safety...
.second reliabity-No thumb safety,no trigger safety,no firing pin block..less parts means less maintenance and less malfunction..
--speed is not the most important thing in a gun.,!
So,please stop to concentrate just to the "disandvantage" of pulling the hammer!! And try to see other points...
Thank you

 

[Erhan]

Hi,i made a short video

 

[Davek1977]

Wrong!!in every SA gun you have to cock with your thumb.and open the safety(if exist)...in my design the safety opens during cocking...so,please tell me how you can be faster? *

No, it is YOU that is wrong. Here in America, if we carry a single action semi-auto for defensive use, we carry "cocked and locked"....a round chambered, hammer COCKED, and safety on....a quick flick of the safety comes more naturally to most of us than cocking a hammer. I don't th
ink you fully understand the methods of carry used in the US, defensive shooting techniques, etc. Frankly, I don't think you'll find your target market in the United States, as typically most people who carry a weapon for defense want simplicity, explaining the popularity of guns such as the Glock series, or Smoith and Wesson's popular snubnose revolvers. These guns are ultimately point and shoot, no manual safety whatsoever, but are considered safe to carry "ready" by most trained shooters. Its not that we're concentrating on the downsides, its just that there are very few upsides for people already trained to use standard, unmodified weapons. You insist it is safer, but most consider their guns carry safe already, and don't want to complicate things unnecessarily....more parts, more safety features, more things to fail or forget to manipulate in the moment of truth. The simple "point and click" interface ff a revolver or DAO pistol is simple, tried, and effective, all woithout the use of any manual safety device

 

[Erhan]

Glock...carry half cocked and click!!!!.ohh missfire...what now??pull the trigger again??..No...now you have to pull the slider...in my design you can cock the second shot with the trigger again!80 percent of bullets will fire in the second attempt..people can live with this problem..
I cant really understand,why you think that my design is complex!..leave the sight up and you have your DA gun back!like you want..

 

[GRIZ22]

if you dont have any safety lever wich you have to switch to fire,then you can be right but the fasters shooters use revolvers and cock the hammer during holstering!
The greatest problem of the beretta 92 is,the safety levers on the sides are stick to the holster and sometimes the position can change!isnt that a problem wich needs a solution?
Thank you

I've used Berettas, S&Ws, Walthers, Rugers, and other pistols which have similar safeties for nearly 50 years. I've never had any issues with the holster interfering with the safety. If you do you it seems you have a holster problem. A new holster is easier and cheaper than redesigning the gun's safety mechanism.

I've been a firearms instructor for over 40 years. Everything from teaching new recruits to experienced gun handlers in both LE and the military. I have never seen anyone advocate cocking the pistol from the holster. Why? There are much more efficient and safer methods.

Yes, SA revolvers have been handled this way for years. Thats because they have to be in order to work. In skilled hands a SA revolver can be fired as fast as anything else...for 5 or 6 shots. Fast shooting with a SA revolver is more a parlor trick than a serious gunfighting skill.

I agree this safety system is the solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[Erhan]

Ok.i guess ,the ability to prevent a missfire due a flickering trigger finger is also not necessary in your opinion.
İ think,i cant explain myself..if you want to cock the gun with the trigger...OK.do it..This mechanic dont prevent you from doing so..My goal was to block the gun completely.slider,trigger,hammer...So ,i design the mechanic to press down the trigger bar and enable the trigger this way..This turns the gun to a SA gun,just for the first shot!....it was easy for me,to leave the trigger bar and cock the first shot with the trigger.....But what i cant really understand is,that you prefer a millisecond speed against a full safety!
There are striker guns on the market,if you want to carry them safe,you have to half charge the slider for cocking!This is acceptable,but pulling the hammer with the thumb is against all rules!! very interesting

 

[Erhan]

And please dont missunderstand me..İ try to understand..Every critic is welcome...and forgive me for my bad english.if i say something unkind this is due my english skills..

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Wrong!!in every SA gun you have to cock with your thumb.and open the safety(if exist)...in my design the safety opens during cocking...so,please tell me how you can be faster?

*

Yes in a single action only gun, you have to cock the hammer. However, I can't think of any modern single action only designs that do not allow you to carry the gun with the hammer cocked, the safety locked, with a round in the chamber. People often make the incorrect assumption that this carry method is unsafe. However, in a properly fit holster for your gun, the safety will not be disengaged by accident. In addition, a design such as the 1911, the gun has a back strap safety that doesn't allow the gun to fire unless depressed.

Several double action capable guns can be carried with the hammer cocked and the safety on. Examples include the FN brand FNX guns, the HK45, HK P30, Sig Sauer single action only P220, P938, P238, and many other models I'm sure I'm forgetting.

Watch the Gun Sight video again sir. In the United States, the generally accepted proven technique for drawing and firing a gun is to attain a fully ready shooting grip before the gun is even pulled from the holster. Then as the gun is brought on target, a safety, if one exists, can be disengaged with the thumb. In your design, the hammer must be cocked on the draw, which nullifies a person's ability to get a full shooting grip and maintaining full control of the gun before it leaves the holster.

In a single action only revolver, the grip shape helps facilitate cocking the hammer on the draw, which is how that design is meant to work. It indeed can be fast, but if we are talking about double action capable semi auto pistols, disengaging the safety lever and taking a good double action shot will be faster, or at the very least have less chance of bobbling the gun due to trying to cock the hammer on the draw. A double action gun that can be carried cocked and locked will also be faster.

As another member mentioned earlier, there is potential for this to serve as a decocker on a 1911 style gun that doesn't already have a safe way to lower the hammer on a live round, but I don't feel it really serves any other purpose.

The ability to carry a gun cocked and locked negates much of the usefulness of this product. If a person desires to carry a gun and have the first shot be single action, then there are several models (some of which I listed) that have that capability.

I'm not trying to bash your product or say you should not bring it to market. I am just pointing out that in the United States, the guns we are allowed to carry negate the need for a product like this. In other countries with different restrictions, perhaps you will have a market. Your counterpoints you are trying to make to are based on incorrect assumptions.

 

[Jim Watson]

80 percent of bullets will fire in the second attempt

I think this is one of those made up internet statistics.
There is a common fault with home reloads that will fire on the second strike, but a factory load that does not fire on the first attempt should be ejected and replaced with a fresh cartridge.

 

[Varminterror]

Teats on a boar... solution looking for a problem... invention for the sake of invention... Pick your cliche'...

Most modern pistols have inertial firing pins such they are already drop safe. Your product is unnecessary and does nothing to improve the safety of these pistols.

Comparing this product to a conventional SAO pistol displays a lack of knowledge on your part. When carrying an SAO pistol, we leave the hammer cocked and the safety engaged. This allows us to take a good firing grip during the draw, then manipulate the safety with our thumb. Your "safety" forces the shooter to compromise their firing grip to cock the hammer manually. I'm not a speed shooter by any stretch, but I'll take the bet any day of the week to say I can disengage a 1911 safety and get off my first shot faster than you can thumb the hammer to disengage your sight safety.

You keep coming back to saying "if you want to be able to use the pistol DA, then leave the sight up." So why would I buy your design only to NOT use it?

You've said in a few posts carrying a pistol with a round in the chamber is unsafe (but then out of the other side of your mouth you say chambering a round takes too long - which is about the only thing about which you've been on the mark). Unfortunately, again, your assertion carrying with a chambered round is unsafe only displays your lack of understanding of modern firearms design.

So let's see:

Glock 19/Sig P320/S&W M&P/HK VP/Striker fired pistols - just as safe as your device, and faster on the first shot.
1911/Hi-Power/SAO - just as safe as your device, and faster on the first shot.
DAO - Just as safe as your device, and faster on the first shot
Beretta M9/Sig 226DA/SA/Decocker - Just as safe as your device, and faster on the first shot...

What else I see as a failing - the manual safety has to be disengaged to cycle the slide. This is a common criticism of the 1911 design - the pistol would be SAFE in Condition 1 with a 1911, or in Condition 2 for your design, then the user must make the firearm LESS safe to be able to unload the pistol. Except in a 1911 design, your hammer remains static during that transition, whereas you have to thumb the hammer in yours. If the half cock notch is damaged, your hammer will slip fully and discharge the firearm, whereas in a 1911, the hammer can't slip, because it's not being manipulated.

As a product and production process developer, I often use the following saying about process design, "fix the part where the part gets broken." Meaning time, effort, and energy should be spent fixing the part of the process where the product parts become out of spec. What you have described above as a problem with manual safeties - being bumped out of position in the holster - is NOT a firearm design problem, it's a holster design problem. A well designed and produced holster should SECURE the safety, or not make contact at all. Fix the holster, not the firearm.

And of course, a holster with the hammer spur exposed could be arguably MORE dangerous with your device, as any snag to the hammer could withdraw it far enough to disengage the automatic sight safety. So your device is MORE exposed than a traditional side mounted safety selector.

You couldn't sell it to me. Ruger revolvers all have spring loaded rear sights, and it is seen as one of the major weaknesses of their products. I personally shim most of mine to eliminate that bounce. Yours, however, has even greater travel. So maybe the rear sight safety sticks and doesn't disengage, maybe your trigger bar disconnect plunger sticks and doesn't disengage, or maybe the rear sight gets a bit of grit lodged in the front of the pivot and it doesn't travel the full stroke. Best case, my sight regulation is incorrect, worst case, my automatic safety is stuck and my gun doesn't go bang when I need it.

Also - what load bearing lug have you added to the rear sight assembly to create the drop safety? Otherwise, I can be certain I have more confidence in the strength of the sear notch on a 1911 than I do for a skinny rear sight pivot pin to resist the impact of a drop.