Best shoot yet with the Uberti 1851

[gtrgy888]

After a few months of trial and error, I had the best full cylinder of shooting yet with the .36 Uberti London 51. 6/6 shots accurate with no cap jams, cap failures, or dropping loading lever (except after the last shot). This was with 23 grains of Goex 4fg under round ball in paper cartridges, Crisco covered to prevent chain fires and hammer seated caps (pointed downrange with firm pressure).

I’ve put a lot of work in this gun so far. All parts were deburred with sandpaper. The forcing cone, crown of the muzzle, and chamber edges were opened up a tad. The arbor length has been adjusted to a perfect fit using sanded washers. The wedge has been cold peened thicker to a tight fit such that only a rubber mallet can seat or unseat it. I sanded down the forcing cone to create a printer paper cylinder gap. The arbor has been reinstalled with epoxy to stop a wiggle in the threads. I filed down the rear sight to shoot to point of aim. I fixed the dropping loading lever by bending it back the other direction from the usual curve caused by loading and I’ll be looking to hammer and epoxy the tiny pin into place to keep it more securely staked.

I can now shoot more accurately with the tiny brass sight then I used to with high visibility night sights on a semiauto. I’m starting to better understand those who lived and died by their maintenance of and proficiency with guns like this one.

This Christmas I’ll be repeating the same work on the Uberti 1860 to complete the set. Eventually I’ll throw in an 1858 and 1873 for good measure too! I’ve well and truly caught the black powder bug by now.

 

[gtrgy888]

 

[windini]

Nice shootin', Lefty!

The wedge has been cold peened thicker to a tight fit

This sounds like something I might try on my 1851. I recently plopped some washers in the arbor hole to fix the short arbor issue, but now the wedge doesn't want to do its job. By "cold peening," I presume you walloped it with a Persuader to thicken it in one or more dimensions. So - which ones? Thicker top to bottom or side to side?

In my case, it seems wider side to side is the way to go, but I'm unsure I could get enough extra to do the job. I intend to order a replacement wedge to have on hand before I try. Did you post anything more specific about your method? I will try a site search, but happy to follow a link if you have one.

EDIT: Never mind!
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/resizing-peening-uberti-wedge.884652/

 

[45 Dragoon]

The easier method would be to drill the end of the arbor to the wedge slot, tap it and use a flat ground set screw to use against the wedge. That way you don't have to beat the wedge up and can always adjust for any wedge wear/position.

Mike

 

[windini]

The easier method would be to drill the end of the arbor to the wedge slot, tap it and use a flat ground set screw to use against the wedge. That way you don't have to beat the wedge up and can always adjust for any wedge wear/position.

Mike

I like the idea! But...

I read up on a similar short arbor fix - drill & tap a brass "button" on the end of the arbor. Unfortunately, I don't have the set up to accurately drill the hole straight and true at present. I hesitate to bubba it & risk ruining the arbor; the wedge is an easier replacement. (Mine is Armi san Marco - not to many factory parts floating around.)

 

[gtrgy888]

I like the idea! But...

I read up on a similar short arbor fix - drill & tap a brass "button" on the end of the arbor. Unfortunately, I don't have the set up to accurately drill the hole straight and true at present. I hesitate to bubba it & risk ruining the arbor; the wedge is an easier replacement. (Mine is Armi san Marco - not to many factory parts floating around.)

I agree. I have 2 replacement wedges I probably won’t ever need to use. Walloping the wedge once every 3 months to restore a tight fit is good enough for my purposes and the investment of effort equates to a light hammering as needed. I use the round side of a ball peen hammer and knock the edge until slivers of steel stick out on the upper edges along both sides. I like this solution better than installing a shim or modifying the arbor.

 

[gtrgy888]

Nice shootin', Lefty!



This sounds like something I might try on my 1851. I recently plopped some washers in the arbor hole to fix the short arbor issue, but now the wedge doesn't want to do its job. By "cold peening," I presume you walloped it with a Persuader to thicken it in one or more dimensions. So - which ones? Thicker top to bottom or side to side?

In my case, it seems wider side to side is the way to go, but I'm unsure I could get enough extra to do the job. I intend to order a replacement wedge to have on hand before I try. Did you post anything more specific about your method? I will try a site search, but happy to follow a link if you have one.

EDIT: Never mind!
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/resizing-peening-uberti-wedge.884652/

Thanks! I’m actually right handed. The left handed shooting is to balance out my skillset. 4 months ago I could barely keep shots on paper with the left while I could keep all shots in a 5” circle at 10 yards with the right.

 

[windini]

to drill the end of the arbor to the wedge slot, tap it and use a flat ground set screw to use against the wedge.

Y'know, one of these days, I'm gonna stop making knee-jerk responses before (re)collecting the facts... probably.

When I replied earlier, I was mis-remembering the distance btw the bbl end of the arbor and the wedge slot. After disassembling the '51 again, I saw - and measured - the proposed tapped hole would only be 0.20xx" long. I'd had it in my head that it would be closer to an inch, and, since my drill press is currently in storage, I doubted I could drill a hole straight, true & centered by hand.

While a lathe or drill press is certainly the better option, this has become a tinkerer's gun, so I may give the set screw a try after all.

Thanks for the suggestion, Mr. Dragoon!

 

[45 Dragoon]

Windini, I think you're still misunderstanding what I mean even though you quoted the "main idea" again ! ^^ " . . . to use against the wedge" . . . it's a WEDGE bearing device . . . it has nothing to do with correcting the length of the arbor. It has everything to do with [ adjusting the forward bearing surface that the wedge "bears" against ]. None of the set screw protrudes past the end of the arbor because that would interfere with the already corrected arbor length (which is the whole reason for having the wedge "fit" adjusted in the first place . . . instead of "beating the tar" out of the wedge as an "adjustment". (Like gtrgy888 does lol!!)

The arbor length is (in my case) corrected with a S.S. spacer mounted in the arbor hole and " fine adjusted" by dressing the end of the arbor itself. This ends up making the wedge slot slightly wide for the wedge so to compensate for it, you get an - adjustable wedge bearing - see?

Hope this helps you (and so many others that don't understand the "adjustable wedge bearing " feature. Imagine getting a "beat up" wedge back as tuned feature in a "tuned" revolver!! Yikes!!!

Mike

PS. I don't use a drill press. You can do it with a drill motor. Go slow and be careful when you get to the slot. It will stop the drill (or break the bit!! ) I use a burr to finish into the slot. Tap it and use blue thread locker. Size is 1/4" X 28

 

[JCooperfan1911]

After working over my new Pietta 1851, it will reliably fire dozens of shots with no jams of any kind. Thsee are tinkering pistols and do great after a little tinkering.

 

[windini]

Hope this helps you

Thanks Mike! I actually did "get it" ... after a while. But that picture makes it absolutely clear.

I understand the arbor length is a separate issue; I was just saying I saw the wedge set screw as a similar approach, but in reverse- the screw protrudes into the slot to impound the wedge, rather than protruding into the arbor recess to "correct" a short arbor.

My goof was mis-remembering the length of that portion of the arbor after the forward end of the wedge slot. I thought that was longer & would require better bit support & accuracy over distance. Since it's really less than a 1/4", I am more confident I can get a straight hole using the tools I have at hand - yep! A drill motor and bench vise. (Or, in my case, maybe it's a bench vice!)

 

[gtrgy888]

Windini, I think you're still misunderstanding what I mean even though you quoted the "main idea" again ! ^^ " . . . to use against the wedge" . . . it's a WEDGE bearing device . . . it has nothing to do with correcting the length of the arbor. It has everything to do with [ adjusting the forward bearing surface that the wedge "bears" against ]. None of the set screw protrudes past the end of the arbor because that would interfere with the already corrected arbor length (which is the whole reason for having the wedge "fit" adjusted in the first place . . . instead of "beating the tar" out of the wedge as an "adjustment". (Like gtrgy888 does lol!!)

The arbor length is (in my case) corrected with a S.S. spacer mounted in the arbor hole and " fine adjusted" by dressing the end of the arbor itself. This ends up making the wedge slot slightly wide for the wedge so to compensate for it, you get an - adjustable wedge bearing - see?

Hope this helps you (and so many others that don't understand the "adjustable wedge bearing " feature. Imagine getting a "beat up" wedge back as tuned feature in a "tuned" revolver!! Yikes!!!
View attachment 1003647
Mike

PS. I don't use a drill press. You can do it with a drill motor. Go slow and be careful when you get to the slot. It will stop the drill (or break the bit!! ) I use a burr to finish into the slot. Tap it and use blue thread locker. Size is 1/4" X 28

I like your solution. But I have a few contentions. One of those is the lengths that seem to be necessary to work around wedges made too small for these guns. You can criticize hammering the wedge to widen it, but the wedge should have been manufactured wider by default and no set screw work around would ever be necessary in the first place.

The next issue is the mechanical purpose of the wedge. It was meant to be pounded on by the force of firing! If it fits loose, the pressure is transmitted to the arbor and barrel assembly. If it fits tight, it generally loosens the wedge over time rather than the gun. By adding a set screw, are you not simply distributing some of that pressure to the threads you just drilled? I install the wedge tight, wait for it to shoot loose, then widen it back tight again with a 5 minute adjustment once every 4 months. If needed I can replace or fix it without modifying the design of the gun. If that set screw device shoots loose, I doubt the fix would be as simple or cheap.

 

[45 Dragoon]

I like your solution. But I have a few contentions. One of those is the lengths that seem to be necessary to work around wedges made too small for these guns. You can criticize hammering the wedge to widen it, but the wedge should have been manufactured wider by default and no set screw work around would ever be necessary in the first place.

The next issue is the mechanical purpose of the wedge. It was meant to be pounded on by the force of firing! If it fits loose, the pressure is transmitted to the arbor and barrel assembly. If it fits tight, it generally loosens the wedge over time rather than the gun. By adding a set screw, are you not simply distributing some of that pressure to the threads you just drilled? I install the wedge tight, wait for it to shoot loose, then widen it back tight again with a 5 minute adjustment once every 4 months. If needed I can replace or fix it without modifying the design of the gun. If that set screw device shoots loose, I doubt the fix would be as simple or cheap.

Ok, first, the wedge isn't the problem - the arbor is. If the arbor had the correct length, the wedge would fit. So, they aren't and it doesn't.
The correction of the arbor length has multiple solutions that I won't go in to but the one I choose to use is a single spacer mounted in the arbor hole. It's a fast, easy and solid method. To make it easier to establish a .0025" - .003" barrel/cylinder clearance without an extended "fitting" time, I elect to make the spacer a few thousandths big and dress the arbor to "zero in" on my target spec. That process opens the wedge slot slightly thus the need for a wedge adjustment (though not always). What's that process? Drilling and tapping a hole? What do you get for going through that process? A wedge that fits, is adjustable for wear, can be adjusted for depth (CAS shooters like that) . . . in effect, a wedge you won't need to replace (or hammer on). An elegant solution that has more benefits than it's main purpose. So you could say the wedge IS the correct size.

As for "mechanical purpose", you're wrong. The purpose for the wedge is not to be an expendable item acting as a referee between two entities but rather a connector of two entities that act in harmony as a single unit (the ultimate reason for the arbor length correction). There should be no destruction of any parts in the use of a correctly appointed open top revolver. The fact that you need to keep pounding your wedge for a tight fit sounds like there is still an arbor length issue.

Mike

 

[gtrgy888]

Ok, first, the wedge isn't the problem - the arbor is. If the arbor had the correct length, the wedge would fit. So, they aren't and it doesn't.
The correction of the arbor length has multiple solutions that I won't go in to but the one I choose to use is a single spacer mounted in the arbor hole. It's a fast, easy and solid method. To make it easier to establish a .0025" - .003" barrel/cylinder clearance without an extended "fitting" time, I elect to make the spacer a few thousandths big and dress the arbor to "zero in" on my target spec. That process opens the wedge slot slightly thus the need for a wedge adjustment (though not always). What's that process? Drilling and tapping a hole? What do you get for going through that process? A wedge that fits, is adjustable for wear, can be adjusted for depth (CAS shooters like that) . . . in effect, a wedge you won't need to replace (or hammer on). An elegant solution that has more benefits than it's main purpose. So you could say the wedge IS the correct size.

As for "mechanical purpose", you're wrong. The purpose for the wedge is not to be an expendable item acting as a referee between two entities but rather a connector of two entities that act in harmony as a single unit (the ultimate reason for the arbor length correction). There should be no destruction of any parts in the use of a correctly appointed open top revolver. The fact that you need to keep pounding your wedge for a tight fit sounds like there is still an arbor length issue.

Mike

I can confirm the arbor is exactly the length it should be, since I sized the spacers to the point that the frame and barrel assembly just meet. The wedge continued to be removable with light finger pressure, so it was resized and now fits tightly like it should. I understand the logic in improving the Colt design with a set screw, but for trying to shoot as close to the real deal as Uberti can offer, I’m happy with this set up.

 

[45 Dragoon]

I hear ya but, you shouldn't continue to have wedge issues. If the barrel lug and frame "just meet" as you say, I think the shims you have in there are too thick. The frame and barrel should have GOOD contact, under load.
The barrel lug and frame is the fulcrum or hinge area if you will and the arbor is the STOP. If you can pull up on the barrel muzzle and see any light at the frame/barrel lug, the arbor setup is too long. The lug /frame is the first point of contact not a "just meet" situation.

Just trying to help.

Mike

 

[gtrgy888]

I hear ya but, you shouldn't continue to have wedge issues. If the barrel lug and frame "just meet" as you say, I think the shims you have in there are too thick. The frame and barrel should have GOOD contact, under load.
The barrel lug and frame is the fulcrum or hinge area if you will and the arbor is the STOP. If you can pull up on the barrel muzzle and see any light at the frame/barrel lug, the arbor setup is too long. The lug /frame is the first point of contact not a "just meet" situation.

Just trying to help.

Mike

Forgive my crankiness, I have you guys to thank for the gun shooting as well as it does! I’ll try pulling and checking for daylight when I load next. Could be more adjustment needed.

 

[45 Dragoon]

No problem!! I would take a couple of thousandths (total ) off the shim stack or the arbor (which ever is easiest). Also, I reread your opening post and you may check the arbor "wiggle" to see if it's back. Did you remove the arbor to apply the epoxy? Check it with the arbor in a vice and "wiggle" the trigger guard. Any play at all is no good. If there is, the correct fix is very easy and no epoxy or thread locker is needed. I'll be happy to list the fix here. This could very well be the problem your wedge is having.

Mike

 

[gtrgy888]

No problem!! I would take a couple of thousandths (total ) off the shim stack or the arbor (which ever is easiest). Also, I reread your opening post and you may check the arbor "wiggle" to see if it's back. Did you remove the arbor to apply the epoxy? Check it with the arbor in a vice and "wiggle" the trigger guard. Any play at all is no good. If there is, the correct fix is very easy and no epoxy or thread locker is needed. I'll be happy to list the fix here. This could very well be the problem your wedge is having.

Mike

I’m happy to hear the arbor fix, but it may not be necessary. After checking the gap between barrel and frame, pulling produced no light between the two and the viced arbor is still solidly tight.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Ok, then in that case, I think more than likely you don't have enough in the shim stack. Remove the wedge screw and drive the wedge in (not tap tap tap, pound pound pound! ) all the way. If you can, you need more shim. What happens with washers is they conform to the bottom of the drilled arbor hole. You'll probably need one of your new wedges (they should be over sized. Also, just FYI, make sure the slot in the arbor extends past the slot in the barrel. If it doesn't, the assemblies will never tighten up. I have had this situation in some older revolvers and I can't remember if yours is new or used. Obviously, the fix for this situation is to grind or file the arbor slot further to the rear. I'll post later about the loose arbor fix (unless our resident "archivist" can find it for me. I think I've posted it before! Thanks Arcticap!!)

Mike

 

[arcticap]

I’m happy to hear the arbor fix, but it may not be necessary.

I'll post later about the loose arbor fix (unless our resident "archivist" can find it for me. I think I've posted it before! Thanks Arcticap!!)

No problem....this should be it. --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/uberti-1860-wiggly-arbor.879411/#post-11736178

 

[45 Dragoon]

That's it !! Thank you sir !!!

Mike

 

[gtrgy888]

Ok, then in that case, I think more than likely you don't have enough in the shim stack. Remove the wedge screw and drive the wedge in (not tap tap tap, pound pound pound! ) all the way. If you can, you need more shim. What happens with washers is they conform to the bottom of the drilled arbor hole. You'll probably need one of your new wedges (they should be over sized. Also, just FYI, make sure the slot in the arbor extends past the slot in the barrel. If it doesn't, the assemblies will never tighten up. I have had this situation in some older revolvers and I can't remember if yours is new or used. Obviously, the fix for this situation is to grind or file the arbor slot further to the rear. I'll post later about the loose arbor fix (unless our resident "archivist" can find it for me. I think I've posted it before! Thanks Arcticap!!)

Mike

Mine is a 2019 model, so the problem is likely a warping shim stack. I’ll check the relative slot distance to verify. Thanks!

 

[twarr1]

gtrgy888 - Nice work.
The latest '51 Navy I bought is much better quality than the previous ones. I just polished the trigger group. I can shoot 3-4 cylinders of Pyrodex just wiping down the arbor. I don't use the loading lever, I find it easier to take the cylinder out for loading.

 

[Zulch]

Hello all. I am very new at this cap and ball thing and new to the HighRoad. I have a 1963 Uberti Navy. As seen in the avatar. When I bought it, it was missing an arbor screw? Purchased one from Dixie. I think I read somewhere that it isn't essential to have one? It doesn't seem to want to fit. It's a very tight area and I guess I just don't understand or maybe this screw will not fit. Any advice would be most appreciated. Thank you, Tim

 

[Zulch]

Oh, excuse me. I meant a wedge screw. Sorry about that. Told you I was new at this hahahahahaha...Duhhhhhh.