arcticap
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What isn't clear?
Black Powder for Self Defense
- Thread starter EricTheBarbarian
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What isn't clear?
Ed Gallop
Member
I am a retired police officer and know the laws of Virginia and Alaska quite well. Never studied any other State's laws, but would bet you'll find a black powder as much a firearm as a smokeless firearm no matter where you are.
Police officers should know the laws they enforce. There may be some small localities that don't train their deputies or police officers so you should call your State Police, in your community, if you want to know the law. I wouldn't ask a judge. You might have to wait until he goes to his chamber to research law books. ;-) Besides... They don't want to be bothered by common people they have little respect for (sometimes, but not always the case).
Concealed weapon permits exist in Virginia, but not Alaska, where no citizen (exceptions are police officers, etc.) can legaly conceal a firearm. Although only a small portion of the weapon needs to be exposed, unless there has been recent rulings to the contrary. Concealed weapon laws vary from State to State, and in some States, even community to community, but if a concealed weapons law exist, you can be certain that black powder firearms carry the same designation as smokeless firearms. There may be different hunting seasons for muzzle loaders but I doubt seriously there are different laws of concealment.
As for a weapon of self defense... If it is all you have then go for it. Anything in hand is okay when it comes to protecting the life of you or some other victim. I can assure you I'd grab my 9mm, 357, or even my 38 before I'd grab my 1860 Colt or Walker 44. Not to say that my 12 guage would do better than any of them. Repairs to damaged walls or furnature would be my least concern in a life threatening situation. But... To each his own. If you feel good about black powder for self defense, then go for it. It's your life, or maybe your wife and children that is at stake.
Personally, I think every household should be trained and have safe but quick access to firearms for self defense. I can assure you that it would make a difference in the rate of home invasions. There would be less victims if the bad guys knew their intended victims were armed and ready. Bad guys have them in their house, in their cars, and on their person. The good guys should at least have them in their house, and even on their person if a permit is issued. I wouldn't want to have every citizen walking around with guns on their hips because I've seen the violent behavour of good law abiding citizens when anger clouds their judgement. Road rage or other temporary outburst of anger would make it unsafe to be in public. We need our firearm laws to keep people safe. We also need our firearms to keep people safe.
A felon responded to this post and I'm sure he or she knows that the felony firearm laws is a gross error in justice. I would agree that the laws should apply to those who use a firearm in the commission of a felony, or maybe if the felony was of a violent nature, but so many felons do not fit in those categories and don't deserve the same loss of rights. Ed.
Police officers should know the laws they enforce. There may be some small localities that don't train their deputies or police officers so you should call your State Police, in your community, if you want to know the law. I wouldn't ask a judge. You might have to wait until he goes to his chamber to research law books. ;-) Besides... They don't want to be bothered by common people they have little respect for (sometimes, but not always the case).
Concealed weapon permits exist in Virginia, but not Alaska, where no citizen (exceptions are police officers, etc.) can legaly conceal a firearm. Although only a small portion of the weapon needs to be exposed, unless there has been recent rulings to the contrary. Concealed weapon laws vary from State to State, and in some States, even community to community, but if a concealed weapons law exist, you can be certain that black powder firearms carry the same designation as smokeless firearms. There may be different hunting seasons for muzzle loaders but I doubt seriously there are different laws of concealment.
As for a weapon of self defense... If it is all you have then go for it. Anything in hand is okay when it comes to protecting the life of you or some other victim. I can assure you I'd grab my 9mm, 357, or even my 38 before I'd grab my 1860 Colt or Walker 44. Not to say that my 12 guage would do better than any of them. Repairs to damaged walls or furnature would be my least concern in a life threatening situation. But... To each his own. If you feel good about black powder for self defense, then go for it. It's your life, or maybe your wife and children that is at stake.
Personally, I think every household should be trained and have safe but quick access to firearms for self defense. I can assure you that it would make a difference in the rate of home invasions. There would be less victims if the bad guys knew their intended victims were armed and ready. Bad guys have them in their house, in their cars, and on their person. The good guys should at least have them in their house, and even on their person if a permit is issued. I wouldn't want to have every citizen walking around with guns on their hips because I've seen the violent behavour of good law abiding citizens when anger clouds their judgement. Road rage or other temporary outburst of anger would make it unsafe to be in public. We need our firearm laws to keep people safe. We also need our firearms to keep people safe.
A felon responded to this post and I'm sure he or she knows that the felony firearm laws is a gross error in justice. I would agree that the laws should apply to those who use a firearm in the commission of a felony, or maybe if the felony was of a violent nature, but so many felons do not fit in those categories and don't deserve the same loss of rights. Ed.
AntiqueCollector
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Wrong! Anyone can conceal in Alaska without any permit, just like VT.
Old Dragoon
Member
My buddy Cowboy in Louisville Ky used to say it this way.
"You don't argue Constitional Law with a Georgia State Trooper on a dirt road at 3 in the Morning."
"You don't argue Constitional Law with a Georgia State Trooper on a dirt road at 3 in the Morning."
Oregon law makes no distinction between loaded and unloaded guns, except in public buildings like courthouses. There is no law banning all concealed weapons in general, only firearms and some forms of knives. It is really quite clear as long as you can understand legal speak, and I certainly hope any judge can. It's not just a loophole that I'm talking about, there is a specific statute that says antiques and replicas are not firearms, they are not handguns, and they are exempt from the other statute banning concealed firearms. Personally, I am not going to be afraid to follow the law in my own state. If a police officer arrests me for not breaking the law I will make his live a living hell. The local news would have a hayday with that, especially considering all the other black eyes the local department has.
Wrong. Go read the statutes I posted above. It's quite clear that muzzleloaders are exempt. How many times do I have to repeat myself?
Cosmoline
Member
?? I think you may have typed that wrong.
Disarmament
Re post 13. Our government is continuing its program of totally disarming the populace, and legisation is now in the pipe-line making is necessary to licence any weapon manufactured after 1900. This includes all replicas such as C&B pistols, rifles etc.
The licencing process is complex and expensive. Weapons which do not achieve licensed status are required to be sold within a limited period on a non-existent market or are seized and destroyed by the State.
Further comment is needless.
Re post 13. Our government is continuing its program of totally disarming the populace, and legisation is now in the pipe-line making is necessary to licence any weapon manufactured after 1900. This includes all replicas such as C&B pistols, rifles etc.
The licencing process is complex and expensive. Weapons which do not achieve licensed status are required to be sold within a limited period on a non-existent market or are seized and destroyed by the State.
Further comment is needless.
Big Block, I don't know what county you live in, but for sh...s and giggles, I called:
Washington County Sheriff's Office
215 SW Adams Avenue
Hillsboro, Oregon 97123
Phone: (503) 846-2761
and they told me that, absolutely, you must have a concealed carry permit if you carry a BP revolver, loaded and concealed in Oregon.
They (she) said that fine points of the law like this are argued everyday in court, and why take the chance of being wrong?
Apparently it comes down to the definition of "firearm" in regards to concealment, and it reads:
(2) “Firearm” means a weapon, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile by the action of powder and which is readily capable of use as a weapon.
The girl I spoke to was going to run it by their attorney who handles this issues, so maybe he'll have a different interpretation.
Hey, don't blame me - I'm only the messenger.
If this is not your local Sheriff's Office, I'd call the right one and ask them.
Washington County Sheriff's Office
215 SW Adams Avenue
Hillsboro, Oregon 97123
Phone: (503) 846-2761
and they told me that, absolutely, you must have a concealed carry permit if you carry a BP revolver, loaded and concealed in Oregon.
They (she) said that fine points of the law like this are argued everyday in court, and why take the chance of being wrong?
Apparently it comes down to the definition of "firearm" in regards to concealment, and it reads:
(2) “Firearm” means a weapon, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile by the action of powder and which is readily capable of use as a weapon.
The girl I spoke to was going to run it by their attorney who handles this issues, so maybe he'll have a different interpretation.
Hey, don't blame me - I'm only the messenger.
If this is not your local Sheriff's Office, I'd call the right one and ask them.
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Pohill, you said yourself, as a cop, were not clear on the law. Why do you think other cops are a clear place to get the law? What part of the statutes I posted don't you understand? They use complicated language, but the intent is very clear.
I agree with you completely that cops probably do not know this law. The cops you called obviously didn't. But that doesn't change the law, and if they arrest me, I WILL have the last laugh. The media loves this kind of thing.
It doesn't matter anyway, because I do not conceal my guns. I am proud to display them in any and all circumstances.
I agree with you completely that cops probably do not know this law. The cops you called obviously didn't. But that doesn't change the law, and if they arrest me, I WILL have the last laugh. The media loves this kind of thing.
It doesn't matter anyway, because I do not conceal my guns. I am proud to display them in any and all circumstances.
Ah, what part of this don't you understand?
(2) “Firearm” means a weapon, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile by the action of powder and which is readily capable of use as a weapon.
How does the media love this kind of thing?
Anyone listening to BigBlock's interpretation of gun laws does so at their own peril. Good friggin' luck.
carebear
Member
You've been gone too long Ed, though you picked a good couple states to live in. 
Alaska got "shall issue" in, what Cosmo, '93? '95?
Just a couple years ago we went to "no permit required" like Vermont, although they are still available for reciprocity purposes (though they now no longer exempt you from the NICS check, Fed's playing games ).
State preemption, MG neutral/friendly LEO, open carry legal, fairly short list of prohibited places...
Life is good.
Heck, VA is, perhaps, looking at the introduction of an "Alaska Carry" bill next legislative season.
Alaska got "shall issue" in, what Cosmo, '93? '95?
Just a couple years ago we went to "no permit required" like Vermont, although they are still available for reciprocity purposes (though they now no longer exempt you from the NICS check, Fed's playing games
).State preemption, MG neutral/friendly LEO, open carry legal, fairly short list of prohibited places...
Life is good.
Heck, VA is, perhaps, looking at the introduction of an "Alaska Carry" bill next legislative season.
sundance44s
Member
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2006
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- 1,473
Different State Different Laws
These carry Laws are so different from state to state ..it would surly be best to check with your state before carrying anything for self defence ... In MS. where I live I can beat the crap out of my neighbor with my fists and it`s just a simple assualt ....BUT if I go after him with a rock in my hand ..it`s a felony .... I can obtain a conceal to carry permit , real easy ..just a money racket here ...and If I don`t have a permit and get caught carrying a wepon concealed ..just a slap on the hand and a 50 dollar fine ...I can drive my truck with a loaded pistol on the seat ...thats okok .. see different states are different ...make a few calls ..find out ...other wise don`t hide a rock in your pocket .
These carry Laws are so different from state to state ..it would surly be best to check with your state before carrying anything for self defence ... In MS. where I live I can beat the crap out of my neighbor with my fists and it`s just a simple assualt ....BUT if I go after him with a rock in my hand ..it`s a felony .... I can obtain a conceal to carry permit , real easy ..just a money racket here ...and If I don`t have a permit and get caught carrying a wepon concealed ..just a slap on the hand and a 50 dollar fine ...I can drive my truck with a loaded pistol on the seat ...thats okok .. see different states are different ...make a few calls ..find out ...other wise don`t hide a rock in your pocket .
Pohill,
The law making concealed weapons illegal in this state says this:
And then 166.460, which was named above, says:
In plain english:
"Concealed firearms are illegal, unless you have a concealed carry permit, or your firearm meets the definition of antique firearm."
Worst case scenario, it's only a class A misdemeanor.
The law making concealed weapons illegal in this state says this:
And then 166.460, which was named above, says:
In plain english:
"Concealed firearms are illegal, unless you have a concealed carry permit, or your firearm meets the definition of antique firearm."
Worst case scenario, it's only a class A misdemeanor.
Cosmoline
Member
Antique generally = the NFA definition, which is pre 1898. Antique generally does not include muzzleloaders made after that date, though they may be exempted in their own provision.
I will post this one more time, in small letters, and then I am done:
(2) “Firearm” means a weapon, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile by the action of powder and which is readily capable of use as a weapon.
I should have known better than to get into a pissin' contest with someone who doesn't know the difference between a rock and a Glock.
(2) “Firearm” means a weapon, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile by the action of powder and which is readily capable of use as a weapon.
I should have known better than to get into a pissin' contest with someone who doesn't know the difference between a rock and a Glock.
AntiqueCollector
Member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2007
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- 842
It isn't an issue of whether or not it is a firearm but if it's defined as an antique under the law and exempt from the restrictions on carrying in those states with restrictions on conceal carry (as opposed to states like AK and VT where no permit is needed for any gun to be carried). BigBlock posted above an example of one state's laws that specifically exempt what the law defines as an antique firearm from the law requiring a permit for carry.
I don't get why you keep repeating the same thing pohill when it's been shown every state has different laws on the subject?
I don't get why you keep repeating the same thing pohill when it's been shown every state has different laws on the subject?
DixieTexian
Member
In Texas, the law specificaly says that guns manufactured before 1899 are not firearms, and that replicas of guns manufactured before 1899 are not firearms as long as they do not use rimfire or centerfire ammunition. They will probably slap something else on you, but I think it is pretty clear that it is not a firearm. That said, I still wouldn't try to board an airplane with one...
Pohill:
As an Oregon resident who wished to understand Oregon gun laws, I reviewed the ORS's a while back, Big Block is correct. Yes, BP firearms are firearms, however they are considered a special class of firearms which are specifically exempted from the concealed carry laws unless local ordinances provide for it. It is a peculiarity of Oregon law, but it is there. It even defines what an antique firearm is.
That being said, I can't imagine carrying one and without getting arrested if it is discovered by a police officer. Wrongly arrested at that.
happybrew
As an Oregon resident who wished to understand Oregon gun laws, I reviewed the ORS's a while back, Big Block is correct. Yes, BP firearms are firearms, however they are considered a special class of firearms which are specifically exempted from the concealed carry laws unless local ordinances provide for it. It is a peculiarity of Oregon law, but it is there. It even defines what an antique firearm is.
That being said, I can't imagine carrying one and without getting arrested if it is discovered by a police officer. Wrongly arrested at that.
happybrew
mike101
Member
Fight Nice, Guys
OK, it's pretty clear that the laws vary greatly from state to state. I used NJ as an example, because here, if it shoots rubber bands, it's a firearm. That's a big problem in this country. What we need are standardized gun laws, the same for every state, using the 2nd Ammendment as a guide, which means NO GUN LAWS.
Still, if you can't get a permit to carry, and you feel the need, I'd carry a BP revolver, anyway. At least it's not a federal violation. As Joseph Wambaugh once said, "It's better to be judged by twelve, than carried by eight."
I agree.
OK, it's pretty clear that the laws vary greatly from state to state. I used NJ as an example, because here, if it shoots rubber bands, it's a firearm. That's a big problem in this country. What we need are standardized gun laws, the same for every state, using the 2nd Ammendment as a guide, which means NO GUN LAWS.
Still, if you can't get a permit to carry, and you feel the need, I'd carry a BP revolver, anyway. At least it's not a federal violation. As Joseph Wambaugh once said, "It's better to be judged by twelve, than carried by eight."
I agree.
carebear
Member
mike,
Absent an actual absolutist Supreme Court ruling on the 2nd incorporated to the states, the last thing I want is uniform gun laws.
State's rights are important for a number of reasons, one of the biggest is it gives you decisions at a political level a single person can really effect.
The other biggie is it gives you somewhere to go if you can't effect that change. Uniform gun laws will, by human nature, be uniformly bad for gun owners. At least with the state's free to make their own laws you can move to a better place and then pick and choose where you travel.
We have Federal Republic for a reason, strong central governments are almost always the worst choice for anything. I'd much rather live with a patchwork of laws I can control and choose from, than laws that can change on the whim of voters thousands of miles away.
Absent an actual absolutist Supreme Court ruling on the 2nd incorporated to the states, the last thing I want is uniform gun laws.
State's rights are important for a number of reasons, one of the biggest is it gives you decisions at a political level a single person can really effect.
The other biggie is it gives you somewhere to go if you can't effect that change. Uniform gun laws will, by human nature, be uniformly bad for gun owners. At least with the state's free to make their own laws you can move to a better place and then pick and choose where you travel.
We have Federal Republic for a reason, strong central governments are almost always the worst choice for anything. I'd much rather live with a patchwork of laws I can control and choose from, than laws that can change on the whim of voters thousands of miles away.
Ed Gallop
Member
Yes... I have been gone too long. I miss Alaska a lot but don't miss police work very much. I just called one of my cop friends there who cleared it up for me. The law was changed over 3 years ago, long since I retired. I might add that I said... "unless there was a recent ruling otherwise". Three years at my old age (66) is considered recent.
The ruling when I was active was that if only a very small portion of the holster was exposed it wouldn't be considered concealed. It could appear to be a cell phone, Buck knife, or just a lump on your belt. However, if you carried a completely hidden gun you could be arrested. No permits were issued at all. Now, they issue permits, eventhough you don't need one. It may be of some help when traveling to other jurisdictions but I doubt many other States would honor an Alaskan permit.
Glad to see Alaska change that law. It wasn't much good anyway. Never arrested anyone on the street for a concealed weapon. I did in a bar when uncooperative though. Didn't matter if concealed or not. Ed.
The ruling when I was active was that if only a very small portion of the holster was exposed it wouldn't be considered concealed. It could appear to be a cell phone, Buck knife, or just a lump on your belt. However, if you carried a completely hidden gun you could be arrested. No permits were issued at all. Now, they issue permits, eventhough you don't need one. It may be of some help when traveling to other jurisdictions but I doubt many other States would honor an Alaskan permit.
Glad to see Alaska change that law. It wasn't much good anyway. Never arrested anyone on the street for a concealed weapon. I did in a bar when uncooperative though. Didn't matter if concealed or not. Ed.
carebear
Member
Ed,
The actual shall-issue permit law came in the early/mid 1990's during the wave of states following Florida's example. At that point it was legal to carry fully concealed, no dinking around with bits of holster. In 2003 they just removed the permit requirement, so we've been legally CCW for well over a decade now.
AK's permit was almost immediately good in a bunch of states with similar permit requirements and is now up to about 26. Alaska accepts any other state's permit but, of course, allows any person not lawfully forbidden to own a gun to carry concealed. Even residents of DC, Maryland and Illinois.
The actual shall-issue permit law came in the early/mid 1990's during the wave of states following Florida's example. At that point it was legal to carry fully concealed, no dinking around with bits of holster. In 2003 they just removed the permit requirement, so we've been legally CCW for well over a decade now.
AK's permit was almost immediately good in a bunch of states with similar permit requirements and is now up to about 26. Alaska accepts any other state's permit but, of course, allows any person not lawfully forbidden to own a gun to carry concealed. Even residents of DC, Maryland and Illinois.
Ed Gallop
Member
Thanks for the updates Carebear. That was not long after I retired. Even at my age, a decade is a long time, especially when you think you may not live much longer than that. As with most old farts, I've been out of touch with changes in laws. I'd rather be playing with my old guns, flying around on nice days, fishing my favorite local trout stream, or do fun inside hobbies on bad days. Can't blame me for that. Ed.
carebear
Member
Don't blame you at all. You've earned a little bit of not having to care about keeping up with everything.
Maybe think about a flying, fishing, non-permit carrying vacation sometime, see how things have changed.
Maybe think about a flying, fishing, non-permit carrying vacation sometime, see how things have changed.
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