Cap and ball concealed carry?

[desidog]

I don’t do pistols and NY; I just assume I’m not qualified as far as paperwork... but given your scenario I’d opt for an unloaded Walker Dragoon.... you walk in they think you have a limp from the weight... handicapped? They should share their precious tp... but if they don’t... whip that beast out and you’ll empty the aisle... cops to close on you shortly after... but all you had was an empty “cap gun.” ... still charged with a felony...

 

[.38 Special]

Well, after having thought about it a little more...

I personally know for a fact that these things can be pretty reliable, if a fellow is willing to make it happen. I also know for a fact that a roundball is effective all out of proportion to its size. I wouldn't completely trust a .36, but a .45 caliber roundball at .45 ACP velocities is going to be fairly effective. So yes, if I was carrying one, I'd feel like I was armed.

Having said that, it's a big damn gun that wouldn't be much fun to tote around concealed all day, and reloading in the middle of a fight is essentially out of the question. I suppose that if it was the end of the world I might go all Josey Wales and carry half a dozen of them under my coat, while hoping to hell it's not 90 degrees out.

Short version, though, is that I have lots of smokeless and lots of primers and lots of lead, and by the time I'd need them against the end of the world, laws about what I could carry concealed would probably be somewhat less relevant than they currently are.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

I am very comfortable with my cap and ball guns as a concealed carry and protection. I have customized my guns where i get no jams...proper fitting cones to my caps (remington 10s and 11s with slixshot nipples), slicked up my springs with a custom wire bolt and trigger spring...and if for some reason a peice of cap were to come off of my cones then its impossible for it to fall into the action being that i have a cap post and if anything gets past that it is blocked by a sheilding i placed on my hammer to block the "action access hole" in the hammer slot. I NEVER EVER get jams and my guns are just as reliable as centerfire guns. Yes cap and ball guns can jam...but with some work and effort put into them you can have a gun that you can depend your life on as you would a centerfire. These guns arent weak and you wont be under gunned. Even the .36 with a flat nosed 120-140 grain conical and a high performance powder such as old eynseford, swiss , or 777...is one powerful gun that will do very serious damage. Make it a .44 flat nosed 180-200 grain conical with high performance powder and you can take down horses. Its all about the right bullet and powder combination and slicking up the gun to make it reliable. There are so many videos which show the proof. Heres one of them showing the awesome power of the .36. With a kaido conical...

 

[John Joseph]

There is are reasons why modern designs are considered improvements.
A drop or blow can ignite a percussion cap and---BOOM!
A percussion cap can come off and jam up the action---silence!
These issues are real and occurrences well documented in period literature.
Just sayin'

 

[arcticap]

There is are reasons why modern designs are considered improvements.
A drop or blow can ignite a percussion cap and---BOOM!
A percussion cap can come off and jam up the action---silence!
These issues are real and occurrences well documented in period literature.
Just sayin'

Yes, every man made item can have drawbacks and failures.
Put the hammer down on an empty chamber.
Seal the caps in place with nail polish or use plastic cap holders as previously mentioned.
No one recommends for anyone to carry a C&B revolver who doesn't want to.
But if a person wants to then they can make it work.
There were also one-shot stop percentage tables published for C&B's too.
Being able to hit the target reliably and efficiently is the priority and which gun to choose becomes a matter of personal preference.

 

[jmorris]

I have never entertained the idea myself but certainly wouldn’t want to get shot by one.

When I get out by BP firearms it’s with the intent of shooting, I haven’t stored them loaded, unless I did, that would make it a lot of trouble.

If it’s all I had, I would. I suppose if it’s all I could use legally I would pick them as well vs breaking the law with something better suited. Not a first choice though, not in the top 10 for me.

If I needed a reload, I’d have to start using it as a club as I am not very efficient at that, could I have something else already loaded in my possibles bag?

 

[Gordon]

My .45 Pedersoli Screw barrel boot gun is very concealable with its pop out trigger and uses 20 grains of 3F . It makes a big boom and no doubt could kill you no problem. In the two states I live in Ca and Oregon, it is a firearm if capped. It appears not to be one if just loaded in the barrel. But I'll stic to my 10 .oz Ruger LCP with 6 rounds of .380 thank you , for defending me and others if necessary.

 

[Patocazador]

Anything is better than nothing. Even a sap, knife or brass knuckles and I would prefer my Remington .31 over them.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Reason asking what if you could not carry a cartridge gun. My county makes it almost impossible to get a pistol permit.

Anything is better than nothing. Even a sap, knife or brass knuckles and I would prefer my Remington .31 over them.

Please be sure to read your individual state's law completely as many are really concealed WEAPONS laws and make it illegal to carry ANYTHING that is strictly for self defense. No sword canes, saps, blackjacks, knives (although some laws exempt very short ones) or firearms. However items that have another use are usually legal defense tools such as keys, hatpins for the ladies, etc..
Heaven forbid that a poor mugger would be surprised that his victim was armed!

 

[Jim Watson]

"Just for fun" there is a series of detective stories featuring a UK gunsmith. When he is checking out a suspect, he carries a flintlock.

 

[rodwha]

There’s a fellow on another forum who chronographed his 3” snubnosed .44 showing an average of 847 FPS with a Lee 200 grn RN. Unfortunately his data is missing, but the thread’s conversation shows the results he attained.

https://1858remington.com/index.php?topic=10821.0

So it is the powder that is used that effects the results as I said. Use weak powders and get weak results. No “illegal” powders whatsoever are necessary.

Also a wide meplat makes all the difference in terminal performance. Just look at what Beartooth Bullets shows, makers of bullets specifically designed for such. Even at very low velocities they perform quite well and penetrate deeply.



It’s why Elmer Keith’s, and others, designs work so well and are sought out by hunters. And what’s been seen is that the longer bearing surfaces produce higher pressures increasing the velocity. One fellow found he got slightly higher velocity readings shooting a 180 grn Buffalo Bullet vs a ball with the same powder charge. This is quite rare from what little I’ve seen, but it shows it is possible.

 

[arcticap]

Ed Sanow published this gelatin test data in the Feb'98 issue of HANDGUNS magazine (the one-shot stop values were estimated)
Posted on THR by Kologha --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...vs-modern-revolver.255957/page-2#post-3175106
SEE ORIGINAL REFERENCE PHOTO LINKS AT THE END OF THIS POST

Notice that some of the .44 round ball loads are not even full house loads!

Cap and Ball Ballistics
By Ed Sanow
Handguns February 1998

Cap and Ball Wound Ballistics

Calibre
Firearm
Bullet
FFFg
Velocity
Energy
1 Shot Stop

.31 Pocket
Baby Dragoon
46gr RB
11gr
821 fps
69 ft lb
30%

.36 Navy
Colt 1851 Navy
70gr RB
22gr
1038 fps
189 ft lb
59%

.44 Army
1861 New Army
141gr RB
35gr
935 fps
274 ft lb
75%

.44 Walker
1847 Walker
141gr RB
60gr
1287 fps
519 ft lb
87%







.44 Calibre RB Ballistics



0.44
1860 Sheriff
141gr RB
30gr
756 fps
179 ft lb
59%

0.44
1861 New Army
141gr RB
35gr
935 fps
274 ft lb
75%

0.44
Ruger Old Army
141gr RB
40gr
1031 fps
333 ft lb
79%

0.44
1848 Dragoon
141gr RB
50gr
1181 fps
437 ft lb
85%

0.44
1847 Walker
141gr RB
60gr
1287 fps
519 ft lb
87%




Cap and Ball versus Modern Cartridges



.31 Pocket
Baby Dragoon
46gr RB
11gr
821 fps
69 ft lb
30%

.22LR
Revolver
37gr LHP
FL
975 fps
78 ft lb
29%

.36 Navy
Colt 1851 Navy
70gr RB
22gr
1038 fps
189 ft lb
59%

9mm S
Semi Auto Pistol
88gr JHP
FL
1000 fps
189 ft lb
59%

.44 Army
New Army
141gr RB
35gr
935 fps
274 ft lb
75%

.44 Spl
Revolver
200gr LHP
FL
810 fps
292 ft lb
73%

.44 Walker
Walker 1847
141gr RB
60gr
1287 fps
519 ft lb
87%

.41 Mag
Revolver
175gr JHP
FL
1250 fps
608 ft lb
89%


Photo of source material:--->>>http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...of-Roundball&p=4295309&viewfull=1#post4295309
Also:--->>> https://i.imgur.com/rwukmui.gif

 

[rodwha]

While not a NMA/Army revolver we can still see how the reduction of 2” effected the velocities, and the reduced charges of T7 would fit in the NMA/Army chambers.



What we see is a reduction of anywhere from just 8 FPS, which I’ll disregard, to 87 FPS. I’d venture to guess this reduction increases with a short barrel. Let’s make it double. So, with a ball and T7 we would still be well above 600 FPS. Even with the Lee 220 grn bullet we’d be well above 600 FPS. Now compare that to his Goex loads, which produce a pretty similar velocity compared to virtually every very other BP and you will likely come in around 600 FPS.

You see, I don’t go off half cocked. I’ve been quite interested in the performance one can expect for close to a decade now and I’ve joined forums asking those who know and I’ve bought books on this very subject. Examples for very short barreled revolvers is scarce. Does anyone have a shortened revolver, energetic powder(s) such as 3F Swiss, Olde Eynsford, or Triple 7 and a chronograph they’d like to do some testing with? The more information available the better.

 

[beag_nut]

The OP might want to look at this thread at another forum, where the corrosive effects are discussed of BP left in a revolver:
https://rugerforum.net/black-powder/369269-leaving-roa-powder-charged.html

 

[rodwha]

Well, I reloaded my NMA with T7 after cleaning and ended up moving to a place where the nearest outdoor range is over an hour away so it sat for about 6 years. All chambers fired with what seemed to be full power and no issues within. Of course this is a substitute powder. I’ve not read of anyone’s account of a stored gun that was clean getting rust. BP isn’t what rusts, it’s the salts from being fired, and the fouling that absorbs moisture. BP used to come in metal cans.

 

[beag_nut]

Potassium nitrate IS a salt, all by itself, even before being fired. Again, read that thread. One does not need to be a member to read it. And the metal cans were coated with tin, and not exposed to atmosphere continually.

 

[rodwha]

Potassium nitrate IS a salt, all by itself, even before being fired. Again, read that thread. One does not need to be a member to read it. And the metal cans were coated with tin, and not exposed to atmosphere continually.

I barely began reading it so I should.

On the main traditional forum there is lots of talk about Civil War era guns still loaded and just fine, as well as long term storage loaded themselves with no issues. This is the very first account I’ve seen where there’s claimed to be an issue.

 

[rodwha]

Not even through the first page and we see some long term storage with no ill effects and some with horrible tales. With the firearms themselves it could easily be said it likely due to clean and care, though the fellow with the ball bearings would be a completely different story. With guns loaded for nearly 200 years without issues tells me there’s more to the story, especially as they didn’t have subs then.

Another thing to consider is environment, and unknown circumstances. I left my muzzleloader overnight after shooting Pyrodex as I was told it wouldn’t be a big deal, yet had the most horrific mess to clean afterwards. Another fellow, also in a high humidity area doesn’t have that issue despite using the same powder. Why is anyone’s guess.

 

[troy fairweather]

I remember a piece from a gun show late 90s where they fired a civil war gun that was loaded since the war, they had some type of X-Ray/ sonar scan. They found guns with up to 10 mini balls loaded in the barrels. Air temp changing quick could make condensation and make metal rust. I've never seen were real black powder rusted metal unfired.

I used mostly pyrodex because we can't have bp in New york. I've had my barrel start turning red after 30 minutes before, I now carry a small bottle with soapy water when I go shooting. Then a good clean in the bath tube when I get home. Once more the next day just to be safe.

 

[rodwha]

I remember a piece from a gun show late 90s where they fired a civil war gun that was loaded since the war, they had some type of X-Ray/ sonar scan. They found guns with up to 10 mini balls loaded in the barrels. Air temp changing quick could make condensation and make metal rust. I've never seen were real black powder rusted metal unfired.

I used mostly pyrodex because we can't have bp in New york. I've had my barrel start turning red after 30 minutes before, I now carry a small bottle with soapy water when I go shooting. Then a good clean in the bath tube when I get home. Once more the next day just to be safe.

After my rusty issue using Pyrodex it was recommended to me to use Ballistol. I tried it in both revolvers leaving them in the garage for several days in the hot and humid TX summer and found it can be trusted.

 

[woodnbow]

After my rusty issue using Pyrodex it was recommended to me to use Ballistol. I tried it in both revolvers leaving them in the garage for several days in the hot and humid TX summer and found it can be trusted.

Eezox is good too. Creates a film, non oily and very good rust prevention.

 

[rodwha]

Eezox is good too. Creates a film, non oily and very good rust prevention.

Does it mix with water allowing it to evaporate leaving behind just the oil like Ballistol? I’ve only read of this product, but just a few times. I quit using WD-40 because this eliminated extra steps and I had it on hand.

 

[arcticap]

Does it mix with water allowing it to evaporate leaving behind just the oil like Ballistol? I’ve only read of this product, but just a few times. I quit using WD-40 because this eliminated extra steps and I had it on hand.

In the past, Eezox claimed that the product is heavier than water which allows it to prevent moisture from sinking below its protective film and to come into contact with the steel which is what they say causes rust.
That's opposed to ordinary oil which they claim will float on top of water because it's lighter, and which allows moisture to sink below the oil and to contact the metal and cause rust.
Eezox is a liquid that dries to a lubricating film which they claim lasts for up to a year, and it has a high salt spray test rating.
And they also claimed it to be compatible for use with black powder, so there's no need to wipe it off or to remove it from the bore before shooting,
However I've never heard that Eezox could be mixed with water and sprayed on in the same manner as Ballistol, to be used as a neutralizing or cleaning agent for black powder salts.
Eezox is not an oil but is a unique product.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Anything is better than nothing. Even a sap, knife or brass knuckles and I would prefer my Remington .31 over them.

The thing about setting off a pistol is that it tends to discourage anybody else from getting involved, and there is a little stand-off distance too. Using a sap or a knife or knuckles, folks may try to jump you from behind. PLUS if you can reach them, they can reach you.

I have a Pietta "Confederate Navy" brass framed Colt copy in .44. I cut it down to use in "pocket-pistol" side matches at CAS events. It has a 3" barrel. It's actually surprisingly accurate out to 15 feet or so, without a front sight. All I did was to square the barrel with a hand file after the cutting, and then used a coned stone in a brace-n-bit to restore a crown at the muzzle. IF I was going to carry this because I had nothing else, I'd use round ball and as much 3Fg as the chamber would accept. Plenty of lead and the best velocity option.

Disadvantage: 5 shots (since one chamber is disabled to be a "safety" location). Black powder in a short barrel, so some velocity is lost. Single Action, so I have to thumb back the hammer each time. Limited range as I don't have a front sight on the barrel, and it's short.

Advantage: Better than not having a firearm of any type in an up close, lethal force situation. Loud Noise, the opponent doesn't know he's being engaged with 1865 tech. Small size, compared to Remington 1858, even in the shorter Remington configurations. Much less expense than the 1858 if it gets confiscated, or most likely the idea that I will have to dispose of it.

LD

 

[dickydalton]

Here's my 2" LD.

DSC00021

• dickydalton
• Apr 5, 2018