CMP south store visit

[jrmiddleton425]

@LlamaBob

You have to realize that at at the time the law was written, FFLs could get Garands for $180-$250, and you could get beaters for under $100. In 1939, each rifle cost the Army $88.50. In 1968 when Springfield Armory stopped M1 production, (I should actually say "assembly") the unit cost was $165.

The easy availability of CMP Garands within the last 20 years or so, is the very thing that SET "market price." My point is, it is this glut of surplus rifles from 1996-2010 that kept market price below $1500. As cheap as you could buy them, and as many as you could buy in a year, I'm surprised they lasted 19 years.

Did I agree with every single one of their policies? No. Would I rather have seen a 2 or 3 rifle per year limit so they lasted a few more years? Sure.

In its' heyday, purchasing from CMP was so easy, I have said my Golden Retriever could have done it.

You had to not be Federally "prohibited," pass a NICS check, provide proof of marksmanship or other firearms activity, and belong to a qualifying club.

When my father and I got our Garands and Carbines, one of us joined Garand Collectors' Association, Dad made copies of his driver's license, birth certificate, and Navy discharge papers, had everything notarized, I got a postal money order, and that was it.

The end result of this process was that FedEx dropped off at my door an April-June 1955 manufactured Springfield that went to Greece as military assistance. From the information I have been able to find, I think it was shipped 1960-1970. It appeared to have never been removed from the shipping crate.

I'm not an elitist, or a snob. I researched what was required, met the requirements, and put up every dime I could spare for about two years. At the end of the day, YOU JUST HAVE TO WANT IT, ENOUGH TO BOTHER TO DO IT.

 

[mshootnit]

Deleted because it doesnt matter

 

[cfullgraf]

The CMP is required by federal law (as already referenced) to set their pricing at market price.

.

OK, what determines "market pricing" in the case of 50-60 year old military surplus rifles?

 

[igotta40]

I'm the OP here. Didn't intend to start an internet argument, just saying, there's a limited supply that's quickly disappearing.

Perhaps one day soon the 'new' Springfield Armory will start making M1 Garand reproductions like they are doing with the 1911 and M1A. Time will tell...

 

[Ignition Override]

There was nothing difficult or "clubbish" about paying the $30 or so to join the Garand Collectors' Assoc. a few years ago. I lost my only copy of the DD 214 many years before that, and had no CCW permit.

Anybody (non-felon etc) with a high school education can handle this challenge.
You don't need to have any political 'pull', be a PhD, Blue Angels F-18 pilot, Huntsville AL drone engineer, nor be trained as a Spec. Ops 'snake eater' to qualify.

 

[CoalTrain49]

WTH, this is the first time I've ever heard of anyone bashing the CMP.

I'll be the first in line for a 1911. I joined a sanctioned club so I was sure to qualify for any CMP offerings. I had to wait 2 1/2 years to get in but I finally made it. If any more carbines come in I'll be on one or six of those also.

If anyone should get preferential treatment when buying surplus it should be vets, and honorably discharged, but then I guess someone would complain about that too.

 

[smithman 10]

Garand prices and the CMP

I also would have liked to see the CMP lower the number of rifles and amounts of ammo an individual can buy, so that their supply would last longer.

But currently on the CMP forum the speculation is that this sold out phase is just a pause while they sort/assemble some more Garands.

Be that as it may, eventually all the available Garands WILL be gone (they only made a little over 6 million of them!). They will be out there for anyone to shop for - at whatever the market determines is a fair price.

At least their work has preserved AND distributed to the public (that is those who took the trouble, and it wasn't very hard, to join a club and meet the requirements to buy) some fine pieces of this country's history.

Without the work of the CMP and before them the DCM, I shudder to think how many fine rifles would have been destroyed by the government.

 

[Llama Bob]

OK, what determines "market pricing" in the case of 50-60 year old military surplus rifles?

As with any good or service, the price at which open market transactions take place is the fair market price. So you could look at what guns actually sell for on GunBroker for example. Or CMP could simply auction all the guns (as opposed to only a few).

The issue here is that they're not even close to fair market price. In many cases they're many hundreds of dollars off. For example, CMP was selling their rebuilds with new stock and criterion barrel and GI parts for something like $800 (I don't remember exactly - they took the prices down). That same gun sells on the open market for perhaps $1100 (with a no-name smith doing the work) to $1700 (with Fulton doing the work). So every time they sell one at $800, they cost the taxpayers between $300 and $900. That's why you've got people buying 12 per year (what the heck was CMP even thinking?!?) and flipping them.

 

[smithman 10]

CMP Special Grad e current price

http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/m1-garand/

The current price for the rebuild (new stock, criterion barrel) is $1,030. In .308 only as of today on the CMP website. That seems pretty close to market price to me.

But you also need to remember that many buyers don't want a rebuild, they want a rifle that may have actually been used by the U.S. in the wars, with an older barrel and stock that show honest use. A gun with some history, so to speak.

For instance, the 1903A3 Remington I bought years ago has a barrel marked R 2-43. The barrel is still in good shape and shoots pretty well. I much prefer it to any "new" 1903A3 put together by Fulton Armory or any other outfit, no matter how well they might shoot.

 

[Llama Bob]

http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/m1-garand/

The current price for the rebuild (new stock, criterion barrel) is $1,030. In .308 only as of today on the CMP website. That seems pretty close to market price to me.

That's a substantial price increase, and puts them closer to market price. However it's still a case of closing the barn door after the horses are out. Millions in taxpayer dollars have already been lost.

 

[igotta40]

At any rate, here's a photo of my new .308 Special I hand picked at the south store on Friday. No sales tax and free overnight shipping to my hands, unbeatable! Now I'll finish the stocks in tung oil, just like my other one. Kinda cool having a pair of M1 Garands in two calibers. On the plus side, the .308 shoots commercial ammunition.

I wonder if all the fussing, complaining and demands for jail time are from someone who's never bought one.

 

[HKGuns]

Taxpayer dollars wasted? Jail time?

Hardly. Get off your high horse. Not a dime of tax dollars were wasted as the alternative to the CMP was to destroy them.

None of the clubs affiliated with the CMP were or are hard to join. They make it as easy as possible and the only reason for not joining an email club like the GCA is pure laziness.

In fact the rules of the CMP still are that they are not there to be a distributor and resale of rifles is against their stated policy. If people broke the rules it is on them and not the CMP.

So just stop derailing the thread. The topic isn't your axe grind against the CMP, it was about the South store inventory and the drying up of CMP Garands.

Membership in many of these organizations costs $25.00 or less and can be accomplished online. A listing of affiliated organizations can be found here. If you have any difficulty in locating a club, please contact the CMP at 419-635-2141, ext. 782 or by emailing CMP Customer Service and we will find one for you.

In addition to shooting clubs, the CMP also has several special affiliates. Membership in these organizations satisfies our requirement for purchase. They include: Congressionally chartered veterans' organizations such as the VFW, AL, DAV, MCL, etc., U.S. Military services (active or reserves), National Guard, to include retirees. Finally, professional 501(c)3 law enforcement organizations and associations such as the FOP, NAPO, NSA, etc are included.

Q? How many M1 rifles may I purchase per year?
A. Purchase of M1 Garand rifles is limited to twelve (12) per customer per calendar year - regardless of grades purchased.

The Civilian Marksmanship Program is re-emphasizing to its customers that ammunition sales are a key component of the CMP’s mission ”to promote firearm safety and marksmanship, with an emphasis on youth”.

Supplies of CMP ammunition are not intended for commercial resale, but to be used by its constituents who participate in marksmanship activities. Income derived from the sale of ammunition to its marksmanship participants directly supports the CMP’s various programs and activities which include youth marksmanship camps, clinics and competitions to name a few.

“For example, we instituted ammunition purchase limits on our most popular ammunition, Greek HXP M2 Ball, .30/06, in February of 2013,” said Mark Johnson, CMP chief operating officer. “Our policy limits purchases of 10 cans (2000 rounds) per member/customer per calendar year.”

Additionally, effective January 1, 2015, Judith Legerski, CMP Chairman and CEO, instituted identical sales limits on all ammunition sold by the CMP. All ammunition sales are limited to 2000 rounds per caliber per member/customer per calendar year.

It certainly didn't take you long to earn your spot on my IL.

 

[Llama Bob]

Suffice to say anyone who would shill for HK, I'm proud they've got to stick their head in the sand to avoid me

 

[cfullgraf]

As with any good or service, the price at which open market transactions take place is the fair market price.

Which means when 22LR was being sold for obscene prices a few years ago on the internet, some local gun stores, street corners and back allies then that must have been the fair market value for 22LR ammunition. Hey, it was open market transactions and some people paid the prices (as Barnum said, "There's a fool born every minute".)

Therefore the manufacturers cheated their stock holders by not raising the price of 22LR ammunition and passing the increased revenues along to the stock holders in dividends.

I consider the prices set by CMP as the fair market price and it keeps the street prices at reasonable value.

The taxpayers benefit from CMP rifle sales are great historic rifles at reasonable prices and I have taken advantage of this several times. I, as a taxpayer, do not feel slighted in the least by not paying the high street prices.

Here is a link to CMP' 2015 Annual Report. You will see that CMP ammunition and rifle sales covered it's expenses with money left over to add to their endowment fund. No taxpayer dollars were funneled to CMP.

http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/AnnualReport15.pdf

 

[Welding Rod]

To me the argument seems akin to saying the government is robbing the taxpayers by offering tax refunds that are too large to all those who are willing to take it.

In any case I got my CMP Garand and I like it very much. I think the prices are fair market. If they were excessively low I would have bought a dozen or so. However I would not do that with an intent to resell That part I will never get... How a man could put his signature, his family name, on a paper attesting that he was in fact buying a gun for personal use if he in fact knows that is a lie.

Oh and CMP has the Best Buy on Federal Gold Medal Match 308 I have ever seen. Great way to buy ammo.

 

[igotta40]

As the OP, let me say this, before my badly derailed THR posting gets shut down....

It's obvious that CMP Garands are getting scarce now. I was fortunate to have been able to take a short 2 hour detour from my cross country road trip to stop in Anniston and hand pick a Garand from the rack, even though I only stopped in to buy some Greek surplus ammo. Having the opportunity to pair a .308 with my existing Garand was too tempting to resist, so I admit it was an impulse buy, and with free overnight shipping and no sales tax, it was too tempting to pass up. I'm glad I'm not one of those individuals who's been waiting months for my order to be filled.

That being said, there may be more available in months, or years to come, maybe not. I hope so.

So, here it is. If you want to sit at your computer and bitch about how unfair a situation is, and with all due respect sir, I would urge you to direct your angst where it really matters. A second Clinton administration could be disastrous.

I'm done here.

 

[Tirod]

OP''s happy and got his. How restrictive and special is that?

'Wasted millions of taxpayer dollars" is really silly. Look at the track record of arms taken out of use at the end of their service life. Thye often are given as military aid to other countries and never sent back to us.

Like, the Korean Garands. Are we losing "millions of dollars in waste" because the current administration will not allow their reimportation? Thousands of potential Garand owners are on record stating how much they'd like to buy one, but no, the .Gov won't allow it and knows they are rusting in warehouses a continent away.

How's that for wasting millions of dollars the CMP could use to further marksmanship? About $26 million would buy the 87,000 guns which would sell for $1,000 apiece in the hands of the CMP. http://www.ammoland.com/2012/06/wha...-south-korean-m1-garand-rifles/#axzz4AQvOQtdm

BUT - the Administration hasn't allowed it yet as far as I know.

Now lets discuss the 770,000 M1 Carbines sitting over there, which the Administration is refusing to allow to come back because "hi cap magazine." Consider the irony, the CMP sells every one they get - but the Administration is "Wasting millions of dollars" not allowing them back in to be sold. https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/u-s-to-import-87310-m1-garand-rifles-from-korea.html

At $600 apiece it would amount to $462 MILLION dollars in sales.

Instead of focusing on a slanted perspective of what might be happening, how about you take your complaint to the Administration about "wasting" a HALF BILLION DOLLARS not selling old worn out guns.

Let's add more - who destroyed most of the M14's to the point that when we needed them for Afghanistan (which was arguable if at all) that chromed Color Guard guns had to be turned back in to the .Gov? And simultaneously, who destroyed hundreds of thousands of 1911's by crushing them at a demil plant in NJ running 24/7 during the window of opportunity when there was no DCM or CMP?

MILLIONS MORE DOLLARS WASTED. Worrying about the CMP selling them at a decent price doesn't even make up for the millions wasted by the .GOV on useless programs or interal deceit. The VA has lost millions just from senior officials firing subordinates and then applying for the job at their current salary, with moving expenses of $400,000 each paid to cover their exit. Why? So they don't have to answer for the veterans being refused care and then dying while they wait.

The CMP does the best it can with what it gets - it's not them keeping guns from going to the people at decent rates. It's the ugly backside of political leaders who don't really care to enable their opponents and do everything they can to keep them from winning. So much so they are wasting millions - if not BILLIONS of dollars doing it.

Ya know, if a veteran dies before he can get treatment, it's a win win for them. No money out of the budget treating them and they won't sell him a gun he was trained and fought with for months if not years of his life. Beating up on the CMP isn't going to fix it.

A wider perspective on the larger issues might help.

 

[Nature Boy]

igotta40,

What a fantastic looking .308 Garand. Congrats!

As soon as things dry out in Houston, we need a range report. Or, you could do a reenactment of the Normandy beach landing and give us one tomorrow

 

[tacmedicp94]

igotta40,
That is a very nice looking rifle. Those new CMP stocks come very dry, at least mine did, but look great after a few coats of BLO. My 2 M1's are both in -06 mainly so that I could consolidate the number of calibers I reload. I got rid of my 308 stuff years ago. Let us know how she shoots.

As to the other stuff. I would argue that it is the CMP that sets the fair market price as they are the ONLY place that you can get an M1 that was either stored in a US arsenal or loaned to another country, then given to CMP to sell and promote marksmanship. The first thing anyone asks when buying an M1 is "does it have CMP papers?" If it has papers then you know it was checked out by CMP armorers and was in working condition when originally sold. It is not hard to become eligible to purchase a rifle. I feel that any price increase, as seen on gun broker, Cabela's "gun library", some LGS', etc is price gouging by the seller because the buyer is either a) unaware of the CMP, b) is unwilling to do the very easy steps of becoming eligible, or c) doesn't want to wait the sometimes 6 months to get a rifle delivered to their door.

The person who sells more of any one thing sets the market price. If someone sells 1 million apples for $1 a piece and someone else sells 1,000 apples at $2 a piece, I'm pretty sure that the 999,000 at $1 would set the fair market value of apples. CMP, until the recent suspension of orders, sold far more M1's than anyone else, which in my mind makes their price the fair market value, not the price they are selling for on the secondary market.

Adam

 

[igotta40]

Thanks Nature Boy, we're all getting soaked here. I'll have to do a photo of the collective i.e. both Garands, new M1A and Colt 1911.

 

[igotta40]

tacmedicp94 nailed it, and thanks

 

[Nature Boy]

Let's see the collection

 

[Art Eatman]

Enough for now.