Designing guns is hard.

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Nightcrawler

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To kill time between studying for my exams, I've been known to think up gun designs.

Being a science fiction buff of sorts, I find it enjoyable to try to cook up "futuristic" gun designs. They should, of course, look cool, but also look functional and realistic. In a lot of SciFi you see on TV, you see things like pistols without sights or trigger loops, rifles without stocks, etc.

Caseless seems futursitic, so designing caseless guns is fun. Not REALLY designing the guts of the weapon, mind you, but just the look.

'Cause let's face it, the HK G11 looks stupid. It's a box with a pistol grip and scope. Functional, yes, cool, NO. (On the plus side, it's easy to draw.)

One thing I'm really fuzzy on...for the life of me I can't design a caseless pistol. I mean, I can't figure out how a caseless pistol would work where it'd be any different in operation than a regular one. I mean, you insert the magazine, and then what? there's got to be some method of getting the round from the mag to the chamber. A pistol would be too small to use the wheel-type mechanism the G11 rifle used. (Return of the wheel lock??)

Caseless rifles are easier to cook up. You can make them bullpups without having to worry abou those ejection problems. Clearing? My idea is that you simply remove the magazine, charge the weapon, and the chambered round would fall out of the magazine well. It would be a very different manual of arms than what we have today, but then, the manual of arms in 1961 was a lot different than it was in 1861, too.

I think improved optics are future-ly, too. Your basic short ranged carbine (the descendent of all of the M4s, AKSUs, and various submachine guns used for close quarters battle today) would need only a holographic dot sight, like a Trijicon.

Your longer ranged battle rifle could use that and a low magnification, wide-objective battle-scope. Your marksman's rifle would want the computerized targeting scope, I think, with such neat features as night vision, thermal vision, and variable zoom/auto-focus. It could even double as a video camera (hey, it's the future, they've micronized stuff).

More later, maybe. Just the ramblings of a geeky college student whose brain is burned out from studying.

*grumble grumble* Stupid statistics. I've got your Sommer's D right here... *grumble grumble*
 
I once tried to think up how a caseless pistol could work -- you're right, it's not easy. Although I figure the current model of stripping rounds from a magazine would work just fine, the problem with all caseless designs is how to deal with malfunctions. Seems like there's no way to get around having an ejection port and extractor if you want fast clearing.
 
well, there's a plenty of already invented solutions for feeding caseless ammunition, such as Dardick open chamber system, Hughes "lockless" system, H&K g11 rotating chamber etc.

the key problems with caseless ammo are the avoidance of stresses during loading cycle (brass is much stronger than pressed and glued powder charge), and heat dissipation / overheating problem; not to forget the chamber sealing problem, which is usually done by the cartridge case...

for me, the caseless idea has too many serious problems to think up something that could be practical in theory without serious research. However, i tried, in my spare time, to develop some sort of balanced retarded blowback system :cool: for a cmpact UZI-type submachine gun. I had it on paper, and one day i maybe will try to patent it - just for fun ;)

it is pity that in my country it is almost impossible to see it in steel :fire:
 
IMHO, the only faultless movie gun design is the standard issue rifle from the Starship Troopers. But then it is not that futuristic.

Actually I am beginning to worry about the real guns' design. XM29 and especially XM8 design gives me the creeps. I'm afraid that 20 years from now they are going to look like a late fifties - early sixties car with fins: perhaps a valuable rarity, but still a monstrosity.

Best regards
 
Okay, so I'm not the only one that occasionally lets his mind wander to viable self-loading caseless systems... Good to know.

A little on topic, anybody know if Voere ever got around to getting a US importer to handle its caseless hunting rifle? I think it was called the 'model 98 lightning' or something. Or does the whole caseless thing make it impossible to import?
 
"IMHO, the only faultless movie gun design is the standard issue rifle from the Starship Troopers. But then it is not that futuristic."

OMG - your not talking about the MOVIE Starship Trooper - are you?
You mean the huge super soaker encased M-14 with no sights? Your kidding... right?
:scrutiny:
Please tell me your kidding.

Nightcrawler... Your wrong. Designing new guns is EASY.
Getting your design made into a functioning prototype and getting it produced - THAT is the hard part!
 
Try designing a pump shotgun that will also break open for long specialty munitions, ie, baton and CS. That was "fun", and I still don't think my design will really work well....
 
At some point caseless ammo might be represented by long solid rods. It would be "singulated" in the weapon as it is fed. Think of it like a mechanical pencil. Possible to vary the ballistic configuration (tip, weight, cross-section) on the fly.
 
heres a caseless design:
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I said this once long ago while arguing with a certain poster who kept insisting on the superiority of his super duper blow back type pistol that only existed in his head. Ideas are easy, steel is hard.

I've got piles of ideas. I picked the one that I think has the best potential to actually sell and I started to actually build it. I figured I would be done in a couple of months. That was about a year ago, and most of it is still sitting at my machinist's shop. Building the damn things can be very expensive, time consuming, and hard. Especially if you aren't a professional with access to good equipment and tools.

Someday it will be finished. :)
 
Commercial caseless systems biggest problem is the initial introduction. Here's a rifle with ammo that can't be reloaded, you have to buy the factory ammo - but the initial availability is going to be VERY limited. The marketing & accounting types look at this, and kill the product because there is no way to expect it to be profitable. With standard reloadable brass cases - even if availability is very limited - people are still willing to buy the rifle if they can get 100 rounds of ammo to reload with because they know the brass cases will probably last them for years if treated kindly. So the rifle will continue to be useable even if factory support is pulled.
With caseless ammo, if the factory pulls support, the rifle becomes an expensive door stop.
 
Well, I don't actually want to MAKE a gun. I just try to cook up cool designs for my own writings and such.

Here's something I've taken a shine to. It's apparently the battle rifle from the upcoming Halo 2 game for the XBox. Picture courtesy of Bungie Software.

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Trust me, making them look cool isn't all that hard. Working out the internal mechanisms and the functional details is the difficult part.

I'm an artist at heart so I'm constantly doodling and stuff while sitting in meetings. Sometimes I come up with some pretty radical looking guns that way.

Good thread!
 
Thats the thing. I could care less what my invention looks like, the hard part is getting it to actually function. :D My prototype is butt ugly. I figure if it actually works and doesn't suck, then I can worry about making it pretty later.
 
I got a fully functioning "caseless" pistol that actually works! and it only cost 175$ from an italian company. Now let me remember the model #??! oh yeah.......an 1858 Colt Navy walker:rolleyes: I'm glad to see 19th century technology finding new life in the 21st!
 
Labinnac -- don't your coworkers ever glance over and freak out, just a little?

Was talking to my ex the other day and she was telling me how she was in court (child advocacy lawyer), flipped open her calendar in front of the judge, the kid, the kid's family, etc., to see the "Guns&Ammo 2004 handgun review" she had left in there. Whoopsie... At least no disgruntled parents will ever follow her to her car if word gets around. =)

OT, she was also telling me about a speech she was giving an anti coworker. Sounded suspiciously like a speech I gave her about four years ago... *sigh* sometimes I miss her.
 
Chris, so I'm guessing that you have a drawer full of chopped up gun parts too? :D
 
Plus, that Voere caseless rifle was essentially a bolt action.

It was a $2,000.00 rifle that offered no advantage over a $400 Ruger M77.

I think caseless only comes into its own in automatic designs.

Anybody got any ideas for a caseless pistol? I mean, how would a caseless pistol function where it'd be any different from a conventional one? Even if you don't have the ejection port, you still need to cock the thing, and be able to clear it.
 
Another cool one from Halo 2. Apparently this is a submachine gun.

Interesting looking design; the only obvious flaw is the magazine being mounted on the side of the weapon, interfering with cheek weld on the stock. *shrug*

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