Do you feel under gunned with a revolver?

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Pistol is my choice

I have carried both pistols and revolvers and generally my choice would be a pistol. They have all the advantages in a mid and large size gun.

Magazine capacity: pistol
Recoil: pistol
Compactness: pistol
Trigger: pistol
Sights: pistol
Reload speed: pistol

I usually carry a 9m.m., although my duty gun is a .40 S&W. My favorite guns for concealed cary or the car are the BERETTA 92D Compact and WALTHER P-99. They both shoot very well for me.
I have a S&W 681 that can shoot just as well, but has only 6 rounds. I use 110 grain loads in the 681 and +P or +P+ in the pistols, so power is about the same. Both pistols have night sights, these would be an expensive option on the revolver.
I have the same power with the same amount of control in a lighter package with 2 to 2 1/2 times the ammo capacity.
Why would I carry a revolver.
Also, one other odd advantage. I used to live in a country with a 4 inch law. You had to own a gun with a barrel longer than 4 inches. This meant, the 681 was prohibited, the BERETTA 92D Compact was fine and the WALTHER could be owned if a 4 1/4 inch barrel was installed.

Just my experience.

Jim
 
golden said:
I have carried both pistols and revolvers and generally my choice would be a pistol. They have all the advantages in a mid and large size gun.

Magazine capacity: pistol
Recoil: pistol
Compactness: pistol
Trigger: pistol
Sights: pistol
Reload speed: pistol

I usually carry a 9m.m., although my duty gun is a .40 S&W. My favorite guns for concealed cary or the car are the BERETTA 92D Compact and WALTHER P-99. They both shoot very well for me.
I have a S&W 681 that can shoot just as well, but has only 6 rounds. I use 110 grain loads in the 681 and +P or +P+ in the pistols, so power is about the same. Both pistols have night sights, these would be an expensive option on the revolver.
I have the same power with the same amount of control in a lighter package with 2 to 2 1/2 times the ammo capacity.
Why would I carry a revolver.
Also, one other odd advantage. I used to live in a country with a 4 inch law. You had to own a gun with a barrel longer than 4 inches. This meant, the 681 was prohibited, the BERETTA 92D Compact was fine and the WALTHER could be owned if a 4 1/4 inch barrel was installed.

Just my experience.

Jim
Click to expand...
What model in a 9mm do you find compact and is reliable with how many in the clip?
 
golden said:
I have carried both pistols and revolvers and generally my choice would be a pistol. They have all the advantages in a mid and large size gun.

Magazine capacity: pistol
Recoil: pistol
Compactness: pistol
Trigger: pistol
Sights: pistol
Reload speed: pistol

I usually carry a 9m.m., although my duty gun is a .40 S&W. My favorite guns for concealed cary or the car are the BERETTA 92D Compact and WALTHER P-99. They both shoot very well for me.
I have a S&W 681 that can shoot just as well, but has only 6 rounds. I use 110 grain loads in the 681 and +P or +P+ in the pistols, so power is about the same. Both pistols have night sights, these would be an expensive option on the revolver.
I have the same power with the same amount of control in a lighter package with 2 to 2 1/2 times the ammo capacity.
Why would I carry a revolver.
Also, one other odd advantage. I used to live in a country with a 4 inch law. You had to own a gun with a barrel longer than 4 inches. This meant, the 681 was prohibited, the BERETTA 92D Compact was fine and the WALTHER could be owned if a 4 1/4 inch barrel was installed.

Just my experience.

Jim
Click to expand...
Let's take these one at a time:
Mag capacity-Semi auto
Recoil-subjective-More factors involved than just the platform.
Compactness-depends on the revolver and the semi-auto in question. (I do not find a 4" L frame to be larger than a Beretta 92.)
Trigger-Again depends on the guns in question
Sights-Yet again....
Reload speed-With shooters of equal competancy with the given platforms-Semi-Auto. (I know many revolver shooters who can reload revolvers faster than the average Semi-auto shooter can reload their pistols.)

As to power-What 110 Grain load? There are many .357 loads that your 681 will handle very well that no 9mm or .40 can even come close to in terms of velocity or ft/lbs. 10mm can come close to mid level .357 loads, but full house .357 will still leave the 10mm wanting.
+P+ is not a recognized SAAMI spec for any caliber. It means nothing. It is a marketing gimmick, and may well be harmful to your gun.
Revolvers can be had with barrels longer than 4". In fact 6" is quite popular.
 
Sort of like are you better off with adjustable sights, laser sights or fixed sights? It's not going to make a difference since you will end up point shooting with these guns at close range.:D
 
Three escaped convicts, no problem.

That said, some seem to think that magazine capacity is a substitute for marksmanship. Others seem to think that a Glock is going to be used as a "Devil's Paintbrush" on vast hoards of zombie gangbangers.

Both camps must be dazed and confused.
 
stinger 327 said:
I'm sure none of those convicts want to get hit by any kind of gunshot in any caliber be it 5, 6 cylinder revolver. I wouldn't think their initial reaction is he only has 5 or 6 shots so lets take him would be thinking. They would think let's get outta here After seeing the gun or after you discharge your weapon.
Click to expand...

It seems that a lot of people on this thread are counting on a psychological stoppage to the fight. This can not be depended on.

Just look at how Plat responded to being shot in the FBI Miami shoot out. The first shot went through his lung and would eventually be the key to his death. He was shot two more times before he even started fighting. It took twelve shots to stop him from fighting.

You can also read about the Newhall Masacare. Two men were able to kill four police officers in a short period of time. The fact that they were fired at with shotguns and .357 revolvers did not scare them off. They returned fire untill the fifth and sixth officers arrived on scene.

If a person is determined enough nothing short of death or paralysis will stop the fight.

When it comes to escaped convicts you don't know if they are armed or not. They might have allready broken in somewhere and picked up a weapon. At the minimum you know they hate jail enough to risk their lives trying to get out. I would assume they are pretty darned determined not to go back.
 
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MikeNice said:
It seems that a lot of people on this thread are counting on a psychological stoppage to the fight. This can not be depended on.

Just look at how Plat responded to being shot in the FBI Miami shoot out. The first shot went through his lung and would eventually be the key to his death. He was shot two more times before he even started fighting. It took twelve shots to stop him from fighting.

If a person is determined enough nothing short of death or paralysis will stop the fight.
Click to expand...
What calibers were the 12 shots from? .38 or a mixture?
 
I would count on a shot to center of mass. If it's a hardcase, then a double tap will drop 'em.

Main thing is marksmanship, hit's are what count. Do some research on that shootout. Alot of shots were fired, some came from 9mm pistols, but very few hit. I am thinking that the agents at the scene were not avid shooters and only shot when they had to qualify.
 
sixguns4fighting said:
I would count on a shot to center of mass. If it's a hardcase, then a double tap will drop 'em.

Main thing is marksmanship, hit's are what count. Do some research on that shootout. Alot of shots were fired, some came from 9mm pistols, but very few hit. I am thinking that the agents at the scene were not avid shooters and only shot when they had to qualify.
Click to expand...
Most shootings that occur less than 7 yards they end up not using sights so where is the marksmanshiP? Point shooting without using sights. Up close and that fast.

As far as 9mm goes there seems to be countless failures of this round with police departments in USA yet in foreign countries this is the most common caliber and caliber of choice. I don't hear them complain of failure to stop in our army.
 
I go to the range and I see guys blasting away at targets no more than ten feet away with semi-automatics. Whats more their targets seem to have shotgun patterns rather than shot groups.

I suppose that is the fashion these days.

Me, I get fist sized groups at the twenty five yard line.
 
Sixguns, I'm glad you are god's gift to guns. I always keep some things in mind though.

A jewelry store owner, and championship competitive shooter, in Florida got in to a shoot out with a gang of thieves. He fired five or six shots from his revolver at less than ten yards. He did not hit a single person or the car. He missed with every single shot.

There have been other stories of cops and soldiers that qualified as experts or marksmen and missed every shot when things got violent.

One of the officers I work with occasionally told me an interesting story. There was an officer with another department. This guy was a three gun competitor, he had taken courses at Thunder Ranch, Front Sight, and Viking Tactics. By all accounts this guy was an amazing shooter. Then he found himself shooting it out with a suspect that had taken another officer's gun.

Out of the twelve shots he fired only three landed on target. He was out of ammo in his first clip before the perp started to fire. The officer was hit four times in the vest. The officer's three shots that did hit the perp had collapsed one lung, punctured the guys stomach, and broke his left collar bone. After that damage the perp shot the officer four times. He then finished off the clip firing at responding officers. The perp survived the encounter.

My point, even the most amazingly trained shooter can miss. Plus, two hits center mass are not going to ensure the fight ends. Collapsed lungs and perforated stomachs arent enough to stop some people.



As far as the FBI shoot out. The first shot crippled Plat's lung. A 9mm slug ripped through his right lung and it started filling with blood. That means that for the entire fight he was operating with one lung. He also had his right forearm broken. He still continued to fight using a .223 off hand. My point in bringing up the Miami shootout was, counting on fear to stop an attacker is a losing strategy.

I carry a revolver and trust it 100% in a one on one encounter. I am confident in a two on one scenario. However, I understand the depth and dynamics of what happens. I have heard the stories and had my own SD experiences. I think a revoler covers 95% of the probable scenarios just fine. I just want to cover the other 5% as much as possible.
 
I never really get this stuff.

On one side you have the Koolaide crew. Buy into what the industry sells you, despite Plats, and all the evidence that the compromise of service calibers, that have to be shootable by 5 foot, 100 pound FBI agents, etc. are going to consistently get the job done? Tons of evidence to the contrary, to justify their politically correct choice of calibers and loads.

All of this discussion centers around a committee reviewing information, compromising with all the factors that are politically correct for their agency, and, some of those compromises are going to get you killed.

Wasn't it Brave New World that those that had gifts, or special abilities were forced to wear handicaps, lowering their abilities to that of the lowest person in that class? Seems like weapon selection for government agencies
certainly is the same.

My concern with service caliber weapons is the long, long list of failures, and the billions spent to convince that they are the answer.

My choices are made for ME, not some other guy/girl/leo that never shoots/shoots all the time, me.

So, I've got 5 shots, or 10. I darn well better slow down, and hit my target.

What caliber would I be most happy with in a shoot out? Of my pistols, 510 Linebaugh Maximum. Penetrates barriers, vests, cover.

Rifle? I LIKE M1A's. .375 H&H works for me too.

Point is simple. Pick what you are good with, what you feel comfortable, and what you can afford to shoot. Take the billions in advertizing trying to convince you that your 9mm Kahr is as potent as a .500JRH, and throw it out the window. Carry the biggest, hardest hitting caliber you can, and the one with the highest capacity.

Adjust what you carry to the area you carry in. Gangs are VERY real, don't care about laws. There are more gang members in the Western United States then police, by a huge margin, and, by their own count.

Just because you live in a penthouse in San Francisco doesn't mean that the
50-100 odd gangs in SF won't make you a target.

I asked a kid at a San Francisco High School to diagram all the gangs on the
board in San Francisco. I asked him, because kids coming to that school ran a gauntlet, trying to get through other gang territories, without being beat up, robbed, or shot.

He COVERED the white board, about 40 feet long, and 6 feet wide.
The on-site police officer came in and took pictures of the diagram. Well over 50 gangs, and those were the ones he had to deal with, on his way to and from school.

If I had that gauntlet, I'd find something with high capacity, like a Mac 10, that hits really hard, 45 Caliber, only because that is probably the best compromise for that situation, range, etc. Uzi would work, too.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that what works for you in white suburbia is going to work for someone that is in gang central.

There is no real right answer to what to carry, unless, maybe, you can carry a mini-gun like Arnold in predator, and, even that has it's limitations..

Take comfort in what your choice CAN do. Figure out what your caliber, and ammunition selection does well, and have a bit of joy and faith in that choice.

I sleep on a 5 shot, .500JRH with 5 440 grain .500 caliber flatpoints. Why?
Well, the 375 H&H is too uncomfortable;-)

Is that ideal? Maybe for me, maybe not, but, I'm pretty confident it's better then a PM 9...
 
Well Spoken

chieftain said:
It's about the Indian, not the Arrow.

Go figure.

Fred
Click to expand...

You summed it up in 7 words.

It's interesting to note that comments evolved into tactical discussions whereas the answer lies in the comfort zone of the person defending his/her life or the lives of their family in a deadly situation.

Some of us have military training, some law enforcement training and the majority no tactical/defensive weapon training whatsoever. One can practice at the range every day for years and group all their shots into the 10 circle with consistency but nothing will prepare you for that moment in time when there is an individual coming at you with a weapon bent on ending your life.
Why you ask? Because the human mind is a funny thing. Primary emotions: fear, anger,anxiety, etc all play a part in what happens in those next few seconds no matter what type of weapon you can put your hands on.

Hopefully instinct, muscle memory and quick reflexes will give us an edge but in the end it's anyone's crapshoot.
 
if i wanted to be garaunteed to not miss, id carry a reproduction lematt revolver

it holds a few balls in the cilinder, and has a 16ga shotgun barrel under the regular barrel, i think its 9 shots all together

and its black powder, so if ya miss with the hand-cannon, the person you where shooting at can no longer see you and you can safely run away :D
 
Does anyone actually know of an instance where the lower capacity of a revolver actually got someone killed or injured in a non-law enforcement fight? I see instances where people empty their firearms and not hit anything; but not cases where having 5 shots instead of 15 was the deciding factor in life or death.

To be fair it would be tough to tell looking at the scene afterward.
 
DPotvin said:
Does anyone actually know of an instance where the lower capacity of a revolver actually got someone killed or injured in a non-law enforcement fight? I see instances where people empty their firearms and not hit anything; but not cases where having 5 shots instead of 15 was the deciding factor in life or death.

To be fair it would be tough to tell looking at the scene afterward.
Click to expand...
Wasn't there an incident in Newhall, CA where CHP officers got killed while reloading as they spent too much time dumping their brass into their hands and putting the brass away in their pockets? (Poor training) Can't remember what year this happened but the bad guys over took them why they were reloading their guns.
 
sixguns4fighting said:
I go to the range and I see guys blasting away at targets no more than ten feet away with semi-automatics. Whats more their targets seem to have shotgun patterns rather than shot groups.

I suppose that is the fashion these days.

Me, I get fist sized groups at the twenty five yard line.
Click to expand...
Autos are more fun for them to shoot targets
 
stinger 327 said:
Wasn't there an incident in Newhall, CA where CHP officers got killed while reloading as they spent too much time dumping their brass into their hands and putting the brass away in their pockets? (Poor training) Can't remember what year this happened but the bad guys over took them why they were reloading their guns.
Click to expand...

Not sure if you mean this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newhall_massacre

If so, it was in 1970 and pretty much everyone using a handgun was using a revolver. One of the BG's briefly used a 1911 but it jammed and I think he just tossed it and started using another revolver.

That, and it was a police shootout not a civilian with a carry permit; although a civilian did get involved and used one of the fallen officers service revolvers. He retreated and lived when he ran out of ammo.
 
DPotvin said:
Not sure if you mean this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newhall_massacre

If so, it was in 1970 and pretty much everyone using a handgun was using a revolver. One of the BG's briefly used a 1911 but it jammed and I think he just tossed it and started using another revolver.

That, and it was a police shootout not a civilian with a carry permit; although a civilian did get involved and used one of the fallen officers service revolvers. He retreated and lived when he ran out of ammo.
Click to expand...
This was the incident. Those were the turbulent times for police when the Black Panthers were out shooting police.
 
Do you feel under gunned with a revolver?

No. Given a decent defensive round I am of the opinion that the average non-LEO in a hostile encounter will be dead or victorious with 2 or 3 rounds fired, possibly only one or none.
 
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