Do you support ANY gun-control laws?

Do you support ANY gun-control laws?


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When you have to resort to the "Well what about private ownership of NUCLEAR WEAPONS ZOMG!" trope...

Notice the context.

"Should all arms be legal?"

"Yes, without any restrictions whatsoever. What part of 'shall not be infringed' do you not understand?"

"So we're not just talking 'assault weapons,' we're talking actual assault weapons."

"Yes. Of course."

"Also grenades and the like should be easily available without any barriers of any kind?"

"Yes. What part of 'shall not be infringed' do you not understand?"

"Anti-aircraft?"

"Yes. What part of 'shall not be infringed' do you not understand?"

Where else could this conversation go? It's the fault of the person asking the questions that the answer is "yes" no matter how high the stakes get?

It's interesting how the straight-shootin', plain-spoken, absolutist mentality usually does break down at some point.

Almost everyone draws the line somewhere. Some people just get upset having this fact pointed out to them. It's as if they understand how insane they look when someone has to seriously ask them, "So...what about nuclear weapons?" Because up to this point, everything has been yes, yes, yes.

My advice: If you're going to be an extremist, at least be a proud extremist. Don't get your panties in a wad when someone points out the troubling implications of your extremism by asking a series of simple, relevant questions. Just keep going yes, yes, yes.

Because at some point 99% of people are going to think you're insane anyway. And by finally drawing a line at, say, ICBMs, you're not only perceived as insane, but you've also lost your membership in the Absolute Society of Absolutists. Lose-lose.
 
The 2A was ratified to protect a pre-existing right, not create a new one. The right of self-defense was recognized by them as the first law of nature.

Touche. +1 for the genius.
So then based on this could it be asserted that gun bans are then a denial not only of the amendment, but of the first law of nature itself? The right to life? (hmmm a fight with the antis AND the pro choicers!):D
 
Because at some point 99% of people are going to think you're insane anyway. And by finally drawing a line at, say, ICBMs, you're not only perceived as insane, but you've also lost your membership in the Absolute Society of Absolutists. Lose-lose.

Again, lacking an education in history and law, you don't understand how this works.

It is impossible, and frankly dangerous to liberty, to give specifics about what is or is not an "arm" or even "the press"

If for example the Founding Fathers had done that then the Second Amendment would be limited to front loading black powder rifles and a few cannons.
They had no concept of .38 Special revolvers, so they would not have included that.

If the Founding Fathers had said "type setting press" in the First Amendment there would be no free speech on television or the Internet.

Technology moves quickly, usually laws don't.

So today say we agree on some list, whatever that is doesn't matter.

Tomorrow a new firearm technology is invented and adopted, again the specifics don't matter.
Or an information technology, the same can apply to the First Amendment.

Since we've agreed to a list on X date, when this new technology is introduced it is already specifically illegal since our list did not contain it.

This is why the Second Amendment says "arms" and why courts continue to interpret that to mean "arms commonly in use at the time" rather than giving a specific list.

But again, you are not here to debate on truth, legal principles, or historical knowledge you are here to do the "suitcase nukes for felons" FUD debating style.
 
For every example that can be claimed as an example of "strong gun control" having a beneficial effect on crime rates there's a counter example showing increasing crime, and gun crime, rates after introduction of "strong gun control" measures.

So I take it the answer to my question, "Are you willing to state in advance what kind of evidence would persuade you?" is, "No, because there is no evidence that could persuade me, even though I asked you for evidence."
 
"So...what about nuclear weapons?"
Here is the problem with your argument. You have the money for a nuke? Ever seen a real one in person? Even if it was totally legal to own one who could afford it? Oh that's right the same people that own them now, the Government. Be honest, how realistic is it to think that any private citizen could own a hydrogen bomb? But then again reality has very little to do with the banning of firearms.
If you're going to be an extremist, at least be a proud extremist.
Again how is anyone being extreme when all they ask is that the Constitution of the United States be followed by the Gov't? Please show me where in the 2nd it says the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, except in the following cases.

Because at some point 99% of people are going to think you're insane anyway.
Could not have said it better my self.
 
So I take it the answer to my question, "Are you willing to state in advance what kind of evidence would persuade you?" is, "No, because there is no evidence that could persuade me, even though I asked you for evidence."

As we said yesterday, show any evidence you have.

Let it stand on it's own merit.

That you want to pre-qualify "evidence" means that it must be pretty weak. Which of course we all know it is, which is why you haven't shown any.
 
-the AKs they used were illegally converted to full-auto. The MG freeze would not have stopped them.

I am all for ownership of full auto given the current registration procedures. No argument from me

-the innocent civilians should not have been standing 50 yards away from an armed robbery.

Oh my bad, the civilians should had turned to the Bank Robber Channel to get their daily forecast of what banks would be robbed that day.:rolleyes:

-full-auto or semi-auto wouldnt have made a difference; they could have easily just relied on quick trigger fingers

so you know for sure these guys had quick trigger fingers? I'm sorry but injecting opinions to supplement facts is hardly viable to counter-argue.

-the main problem was that the police were outgunned, not that the assailants had full-autos you just supported the argument that full-autos were the problem since the police were outgunned. ummm hello!!!!


if the same thing happened again, it would have ended in a stand-off inside, or the men would have been gunned down the moment they stepped outside to face police armed with AR-15s you have proof? opinion doesn't count as "facts".
 
sernv99: you just supported the argument that full-autos were the problem since the police were outgunned. ummm hello!!!!


They weren't really outgunned, the issue was that the robbers were covered in head to toe in body armor that the police's issued weapons were incapable of piercing. Additionally, since both robbers were pre-medicated, any hits that did get through the seams were not able to achieve pain-compliance due to the subjects inability to comprehend pain at that time.

if the same thing happened again, it would have ended in a stand-off inside, or the men would have been gunned down the moment they stepped outside to face police armed with AR-15s you have proof? opinion doesn't count as "facts".

Simple. Take a level IIIA vest. Put a soda bottle or a block of clay inside it. Shoot it a few times with a .44mag. Observe the clay for number of hits through-n-through (Hint: 0 penetrations will be there). Now, load up with some 55gr FMJ's in an AR-15, and shoot said Level IIIA vest a few times again. Notice how all the .223's zipped right through the front, and possibly the back? There's the proof.
 
you just supported the argument that full-autos were the problem since the police were outgunned. ummm hello!!!!

How often can you show a complete lack of knowledge on this subject?

The police were outgunned because they only had handguns and possibly one shotgun.

Even if the robbers had used semi automatic rifles the police would have been outgunned.

You cannot debate a topic that you know nothing about, and you continue to demonstrate that.

Oh my bad, the civilians should had turned to the Bank Robber Channel to get their daily forecast of what banks would be robbed that day.

And again, showing a complete lack of knowledge about the subject and still trying to debate it.

The shootout lasted about a half an hour, on public streets, and yet citizens did not run and hide, they wanted to watch. Regardless of the firearm type used, it's pretty stupid to stand out on a sidewalk for half an hour watching the cops in a blazing gun battle.
 
I'm still waiting for someone to prove that any form of restriction on the ownership of firearms has caused any measurable decrease in the use of firearms in the commission of crimes.

Some folk FEEL that to be a common-sense conclusion, but I'm looking for proof. Since the majority of what we now call 'gun control laws' were enacted within the last forty years or so, we should have lost of solid empirical data on all that.

BRING IT.
 
I voted yes.

I should have voted no.

I've finally seen the light.

I wish it could have been something I read on here, but it wasn't.

It was a simple thought, and it was all I needed.
 
I voted no for "gun control"

Handguns, rifles, shotguns, and even small grenades are a lowly grunts weapon that they give to the lowest ranking private nobody in any average army. I see no reason why these types of weapons should be restricted in any way. IMO, they are a basic essential tool in todays world.

Other weapons make sense to be restricted for military use only... like cruise missiles, field artillery, ICBM's, etc. These types of weapons are able to reach out and destroy much more than immediate threats to your personal safety or property. If it can destroy a whole city block, it is too much for the average Joe to justify keeping in his garage.

On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with towns, cities, and states keeping their own armories with which they can arm militias and able bodied citizens with real weapons if the need arises. I doubt the fed dot gov would go for it though.

I'm still waiting for someone to prove that any form of restriction on the ownership of firearms has caused any measurable decrease in the use of firearms in the commission of crimes.
You will be waiting a long time... that proof simply does not exist... except in the wild imaginations of the Brady types.

...
 
As for the NFA, machine guns, as fun as they can be to shoot, allow a single individual to mow down a large group of people. They allow someone to "hose down" an area without even specifically aiming at an individual. Semi-autos, at least, must be individually aimed and fired.
Really? You've never been around someone with a "good" trigger finger then. It's every bit (ok, 98%) as easy to "hose down" an area with a semi as it is a full auto. And no, I don't support ANY gun control laws. I support *punishment* for those who use weapons in the commission of a crime.
 
For most level-headed observers

A person with a normally functioning brain

Normally thinking people can also clearly see

:scrutiny:

even though the gunmen weren't primarily targeting civilians

The recorded police radio traffic and the 911 recordings have several instances where the police and civilians are saying the exact opposite of this. "They're shooting at everyone." "They're shooting at anything that moves", is on both. Listen to them for yourself if you want to hear.

So what is it? The guys with the automatic weapons weren't shooting up the civilians at all in spite of the recorded accounts (of course that means they were shooting up the cops and somehow didn't rack up a high body count on them either) or the guys with the automatic weapons were shooting up the civilians and cops and just threw a bunch of lead around without doing much damage in spite of an obvious disciplined effort to do so? The longest running gun shootout in US history involving automatic weapons resulted in great loss of civilian life or the longest shootout in US history involving automatic weapons wasn't directed at civilians or the longest automatic weapons shootout in US history involve indiscriminate shooting at anything that moved. And still there was no body count. Provide any example of a high body count where automatic weapons were used in the US by criminals. Any. Anything that supports this contention that a machine gun was used to kill more than a handful of people at one time.
 
"Should all arms be legal?"

You're shifting goal posts. The original title of your thread is "Do you support ANY gun-control laws?" Setting aside for the moment that your question and attached poll are poorly worded, attempting to push the discussion in a direction outside of the original question isn't going to yield terribly helpful answers. Of course, at this point it's quite obvious that was not your intention in the first place.

Where else could this conversation go? It's the fault of the person asking the questions that the answer is "yes" no matter how high the stakes get?

Yeah, it pretty much is your fault. You asked a stupid question couched in some sort of politically unviable bizarro world, and got answers just as bizarre and politically unviable. Despite the fact that WMD's, RPG's, grenades, other forms of ordnance or even machine guns are not likely to ever be legalized at all, you continue to press the issue, no doubt out of the same sort of mindless need for theatrics that one would generally find embodied in the typical fan of Jerry Springer, rather than actually attempting to debate or examine the effectiveness of current gun policy.

It's interesting how the straight-shootin', plain-spoken, absolutist mentality usually does break down at some point.

*Yawn*

Almost everyone draws the line somewhere. Some people just get upset having this fact pointed out to them.

I'm interested in drawing the line at what is politically viable, and what advances the interests of those who wish to exercise a fundamental civil right. Histrionics about ZOMG YOU GUYZ WANT NUKES!!!!!111!!ONE!! don't actually accomplish anything. Rather, they're plainly detrimental, especially when current laws can and do result in innocent people being prosecuted for what amount to petty violations of arbitrary regulations.

My advice: If you're going to be an extremist, at least be a proud extremist.

*shrugs* In this day and age, one hardly has to take a position as radical as "I want to own a rocket launcher" to be considered an extremist. No doubt some of the competition firearms I own would cause your monocle to shatter.

Don't get your panties in a wad when someone points out the troubling implications of your extremism by asking a series of simple, relevant questions.

Except that the point that you fail to grasp is that your questions about WMD's and such are, by their very political unlikeliness, wholly irrelevant. All you're interested in is asking a bunch of ridiculous questions so you can get some sort of cheap thrill from points of view that you find so shocking.

Because at some point 99% of people are going to think you're insane anyway.

If 99% of people think that being thrown in jail for, say, putting a pistol grip on a rifle is fair or just, plainly the inmates are running the asylum.

And by finally drawing a line at, say, ICBMs, you're not only perceived as insane,

Again, I point out that you're the one who brought nukes up. I just called you on your plainly idiotic argument. Perhaps I should have called you on it earlier.

...but you've also lost your membership in the Absolute Society of Absolutists. Lose-lose.

Yes. Because Heller was lose-lose. As was the recent 9th Circuit ruling in favor of incorporation of the 2nd Amendment under the 14th.

But, hey, reading up on court rulings is hard work. Why do that when, instead, you can just show up and troll an internet forum chumming the water with ridiculous fantasies for the LULZ.
 
Other weapons make sense to be restricted for military use only... like cruise missiles, field artillery, ICBM's, etc. These types of weapons are able to reach out and destroy much more than immediate threats to your personal safety or property. If it can destroy a whole city block, it is too much for the average Joe to justify keeping in his garage.

Show me one "average joe" that can afford any of this.
 
On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with towns, cities, and states keeping their own armories with which they can arm militias and able bodied citizens with real weapons if the need arises. I doubt the fed dot gov would go for it though.

I believe the 10th amendment would keep the Feds from saying a state couldn't have a well armed militia.
 
Didn't that guy in the clock tower in Texas kill 17 people using a bolt action rifle, while two goons with full auto AK's and drum mags only managed to wound around the same number in three times the time?
 
Didn't that guy in the clock tower in Texas kill 17 people using a bolt action rifle, while two goons with full auto AK's and drum mags only managed to wound around the same number in three times the time?

Stop putting facts in here, it confuses them :)
 
I am willing to concede a point on automatic weapons: If you ignore the fact that most criminals get their weapons from among those weapons that are in common circulation, then it makes no sense to erect legal barriers to automatic weapons.

But the fact is, most criminals do get their weapons from among those weapons that are in common circulation. And while someone whose principal hobby or profession involves guns may consider acquiring an automatic weapon to be nearly trivial, that isn't the case for most people, criminals included.

Legal barriers, such as special tax stamps and other hoops one has to jump through, are effective in keeping a given thing (gun or otherwise) out of common circulation.

When's the last time you saw someone drinking absinthe? If you know how to do it, you can legally acquire and possess absinthe in the United States. But this is not widely known, and even many of those who know how to do it don't bother with the process. And absinthe is thus a pretty rare find in the average home's liquor cabinet. Technically legal, but nonetheless rare.

Most people think automatic weapons are illegal. Further, there's a process one has to go through that keeps most people who are in the know from bothering to acquire an automatic weapon. Thus, an automatic weapon is a rare find in the average home's gun cabinet. Technically legal, but nonetheless rare.

The idea that machine guns are all over the place at present, and a criminal can reach for one just as easily as he can reach for a 9mm semi-auto, is a delusion. And if that delusion is necessary to sustain a belief that gun control never works, perhaps it's time to reconsider the premise.
 
But the fact is, most criminals do get their weapons from among those weapons that are in common circulation. And while someone whose principal hobby or profession involves guns may consider acquiring an automatic weapon to be nearly trivial, that isn't the case for most people, criminals included.

There you go, quoting "fact" again with nothing to back it up.

The AR15 style of rifle is one of the most common rifles in the country or even rifles in general, yet their use in crime is extremely low. Use of ANY rifle type in crime is extremely rare.

Shotguns? Likely THE most common firearm type in the US by far. Use in crimes? Eh, hardly shows up in the statistics.

Source: same as always, FBI, DOJ, etc.

The majority of guns used in crimes are handguns.

Find some real hard evidence, some kind of facts to back up your claims.

It's getting pretty old listening to you make stuff up as you go. You clearly haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about.
 
But the fact is, most criminals do get their weapons from among those weapons that are in common circulation.
Citation?

Legal barriers, such as special tax stamps and other hoops one has to jump through, are effective in keeping a given thing (gun or otherwise) out of common circulation.
Like tea?
When's the last time you saw someone drinking absinthe?
Why? The stuff is horrible.

Technically legal, but nonetheless rare.
As are chickens which are nonetheless rare in my home...

The idea that machine guns are all over the place at present, and a criminal can reach for one just as easily as he can reach for a 9mm semi-auto, is a delusion.
Spend a lot of time in South Central L.A. do you? The flow of ILLEGAL weapons there is a bit astounding. Something all the laws in the world have done nothing to stop. I cite Penn and Teller's BS episode on gun control. Yeah I know not exactly a federal study but oh well. The gang member the interviewed says take his AK, big deal he'll just buy another one, or two. So what is yet another law going to do to a mind set like that?
 
IMO, it's too broad of a question. ("Do you support ANY gun-control laws?") A few examples where I find myself contradicting myself....

Violent felons owning any firearm? (I vote yes.)

Mandatory firearms registration? (I vote no.)

Age restricted purchases? (I vote yes.)

Ban on automatics? (I vote no.)
 
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