I would agree with this. I own one of the little Taurus PT 111 G2's. It is what Taurus calls single action/double action. Once you chamber a round it is actually pre cocked single action. If the round doesn't go off you can pull the trigger again. It has a slightly harder double action pull. However I cannot imagine myself in a dire situation actually just pulling the trigger again. If the pistol doesn't fire it is time to go to tap, rack, bang (get that sucker out of there & get a good round in).
"double-action" striker-fired - other than the SIG 320?
- Thread starter W.E.G.
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I would agree with this. I own one of the little Taurus PT 111 G2's. It is what Taurus calls single action/double action. Once you chamber a round it is actually pre cocked single action. If the round doesn't go off you can pull the trigger again. It has a slightly harder double action pull. However I cannot imagine myself in a dire situation actually just pulling the trigger again. If the pistol doesn't fire it is time to go to tap, rack, bang (get that sucker out of there & get a good round in).
Jim Watson
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I agree with Walt.
The acceptance of the Glock's partly (mostly) preloaded striker in what they call the "Safe Action" as equivalent to a hammer fired double action was a tremendous success of advertising. It opened up untold numbers of military and police sales to agencies that were coming to think of revolvers as obsolete, single action autos like 1911 and P35 as dangerous, "traditional" DA-SA "crunchentickers" as hard to learn to shoot well, and hammer DAO as maybe worse.
Then Glock came along with the Safe Action, which is simple to operate, has a consistent weight of trigger pull but not so short and light as to make executives nervous, and best of all, LOW PRICE.
SA slipped up when they took over importation of the XD. It is a fully cocked striker action and dressing it up with "Ultra Safe Action" prose and a grip safety did not get it accepted by US law enforcement or even IDPA SSP until recently.
Smith & Wesson was paying attention after messing around with the Sigma economy Glockoids and the 990 collaboration with Walther. They flogged the Plastic M&P as "double action" from the start, getting it accepted as such by NIJ in spite of the miniscule movement of the striker by trigger stroke. Selling a bunch of guns, too.
Sig Sauer caught on, too. I look at the P320 as a development of the lackluster P250 DAO hammer gun. If they got it accepted by the FBI, they will do well with it.
H&K has grudgingly gone striker fired, too. I don't know what their market for it is, though.
Likewise Walther, they started out OK with the P99 and are now expanding their lineup. For whom I don't know, either.
But don't mistake the advertising for the machinery.
There's been no official selection, however there has been at least one article written that suggested that the specs/requirements were written so narrowly that only the P320 could qualify.
Of course that ignores the possibility that a gun manufacturer would modify one of their existing models to meet the specs in order to get the business and prestige that would go along with being selected as the FBI's issue sidearm.
Perhaps that's what the OP is referring to.
cc-hangfire
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As I understand the issue, BATF is the agency that must determine if a handgun is SA, DA/SA, or DAO. The difficulty is that BATF does not have a definition for striker fired handguns. Some striker fired are partially pre-tensioned and these BATF defines as DA since the trigger pull competes the striker tensioning and releases the sear. The others that are fully pre-tensioned BATF defines as SA since the trigger only releases the sear.
While this may be almost meaningless to civilians, the designation is very important to LE agencies since some have policies requiring that they use DA or DAO. The BATF designation is the official designation in the eyes of LE agencies and the courts, regardless of double strike capability.
While this may be almost meaningless to civilians, the designation is very important to LE agencies since some have policies requiring that they use DA or DAO. The BATF designation is the official designation in the eyes of LE agencies and the courts, regardless of double strike capability.
Walt Sherrill
Member
cc-hangfire said:
The BATF apparently also didn't have a definition for hammer-fired weapons that functioned in a similar manner. The S&W 4043 I got from my son (a duty weapon the he bought when his agency upgraded to SIGs) functions in the same way as the Glock: the gun will only fire when the slide has cycled -- i.e., when a round is chambered or when a round is fired. The 4043 gun was considered DA, too... but the trigger did NOT perform the traditional "cock the hammer, bypass the sear, and release the hammer, as the traditional DA gun did. Most true DA/SA guns (like the Sigs, Berettas, or CZs) DO function in that manner and don't require the slide to partially or fully pretension a spring.
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george burns
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Like I said in my first post, if you want the best striker fired triggers, get the PPQ or VP9. 2nd strike is really not a big deal and you aren't going to get a target trigger on a gun that you can pull the trigger on twice, only because of the mechanism needed to make that function. If you want 2nd strike look at some of the Canick pistols I believe there are a couple that have that.
Zaydok Allen
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I've handled a 320 and can verify that it doesn't have second strike capabilities. It was an alright gun, but I wasn't terribly impressed. The trigger felt a bit mushy, but to be fair, I'd just handled a VP9, so my perception was squed.
WestKentucky
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If I understand correctly you are basically wanting an LDA gun. There are a bunch of those...try a keltec.
Caliper_Mi
Member
Keltec (at least the PF9 and P32 that I own) does not have second strike capability. Even though they are hammer fired, the trigger only works to take the hammer from a half cocked position. It's almost a hammer equivelant to Glock only less squishy feeling.
I propose we call these actions "1.5 action". The trigger performs 1.5 actions - the second half of cocking the striker/hammer and then the action of releasing it. The trigger alone cannot perform two actions and relies on the slide to do the first half of cocking the firing mechanism.
I believe a Glock could have second strike capability though if the trigger were allowed to travel further forward so that the trigger bar could pick up the striker from a fully de-cocked position.
Walt Sherrill
Member
Some folks have started calling the Glock, Kel-Tec, S&W 3rd Gen type-actions Modified Double Action. That definition addresses the differences between a pre-tensioned spring and a non-tensioned spring (as in a true double-action gun), whether it's a striker spring or a hammer spring.
What's not mentioned in these discussions, is that a true double-action trigger bypasses the sear and double-action only guns typically don't have sears -- just the DA/SA guns do, and they bypass the sear, too.)
What's not mentioned in these discussions, is that a true double-action trigger bypasses the sear and double-action only guns typically don't have sears -- just the DA/SA guns do, and they bypass the sear, too.)
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JoePfeiffer
Member
I'd like a slight refinement on your suggestion: let the decimal be how much tensioning you do with the trigger. A pure single action is 1, a pure double action is 2, a gun with a 40% pretension leaves the trigger with 60% of the work so it's a 1.6.
Caliper_Mi
Member
As an engineer, I really like this.
I guess that makes handguns like the M&P and XD something like a 1.95 action?
As for Kel-Tec the P-11 is true double action only but is not striker fired. It has a shrouded hammer. It has a long heavy trigger though with about 8.5 pound pull. The PF-9 & P3AT were made differently to give them a better trigger.
Jlr2267
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no 2nd strike, but the P320 is a very nice firearm. I'm a Glock guy, buy I tried a P320 and ended up buying the compact model. It's a tad bigger than a G19 and maybe a couple ounces heavier, slightly longer grip. The trigger, IMO, is much, much better on the Sig
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