General Purpose .30 Rifle...Red Dot or Variable Power?

[BerettaNut92]

Your thoughts...let's say I only have one rifle and it's a .30-06 semi-auto. Rifle won't have a specific role, it'll be an 'everything' gun from defense, competition, plinking, etc. I'm looking at either an Aimpoint or finding a mounting solution for my 1.25-4x Trijicon hunting scope.

Which would you get and what is your reasoning? I may be leaning on the Aimpoint for durability sake and user friendliness.

 

[SodaPop]

I never thought red dots belonged on hunting rifles except on shotguns.

 

[Kaylee]

personally, I think putting a red dot on a .30-06 is ..well... drastically handicapping the rifle. Now, granted you live in an urban area and prolly wont be taking long shots or anything. Still... it seems an odd combo to me.

another vote for a scope.

-K

 

[BerettaNut92]

Why, because lack of magnification? Are you any worse off than iron sights?

 

[Brian Dale]

Kaylee,

I have a newbie Q about scopes: is a red dot too coarse (for a GP .30-'06 like Skunkabilly has described)?

{Edited to add: Skunk, you got yours in as I was typing this. sorry for the duplicate "why so?" Q}

 

[Marko Kloos]

I'm going to go against the grain and advocate the red dot here for general purpose use. I have one on both my shotty and the .308 battle rifle.

A scope is fine for precision work at any range, but I don't like two things about it for fast shots: limited field of vision, and the necessity for pproper eye relief. If you only punch paper, or you need to zap a critter of any kind at 300+ yards *and* have time to line 'em up perfectly, then the scope is superior to the red dot sight.

For social work and hunting, however, I think that the red dot has it all over the scope. You can keep both eyes open, you don't need proper eye relief, and target acquisition for quick "snap shots" is much faster with a red dot sight. In addition, the red dot will work well in low light or complete darkness, and even a 4 or 5MOA dot will be just as precise as a front sight post. For distances from 0-200 yards, which is where most of the social and hunting work happens, the red dot/holosight etc. is superior to scope and iron sights.

If you ran a military course of fire with iron sights, then a scope, and then a red dot, there's no doubt in my mind that you'd be nailing the most targets in the fastest time with a red dot-equipped rifle.

 

[Drue]

How about one of the Leupold 1.5x5 scopes with the illuminated recticle? They have duplex cross hairs and when the light is turned on, the center cross hairs are red. This scope would seem to provide both choices in one instrument but they are expensive.

Drue

 

[Master Blaster]

I have a rem 700 adl, and I bought a williams receiver mounted peep sight.

You have to work up a full power load that is compatable with the sight's adjustments.

Its rugged, simple, and provides for fast target aquisition, but its not a benchrest sight, its a battle / hunting sight.

It works with the remmington from sight that came on the rifle, once I removed the barrel mounted rear sight.

I also had a 3X9 scope on this rifle, with the scope I could shoot a 3" 5 shot hundred yard group, with the peep sight its a 4" group.

The williams sight is $35

 

[Art Eatman]

Seems to me that "defense" is among the lowest of the probabilities for use. Since an '06 is a sorta Ma Bell critter, a quality 3x9 gives a lot more variety in uses.

You can always get a red-dot rig, adjust it for sight-in and then stash it against future need, if defense becomes a reality.

Art

 

[WYO]

This may be OT, but illuminated sights, including dot sights, illuminated reticles and even trijicon sights are illegal for hunting in Wyoming. It appears that this may not be an issue in most other states, based upon the posts I read, but it may be a good idea to check out the local law on the issue before using an illuminated sight for hunting.

 

[Keith]

1; A red dot is too coarse for fine shooting at long range. It limits the "general purpose" nature of the rifle. Furthermore, it requires batteries - never a good idea.

2; The typical hunting 3x9 has too great a magnification for close range shooting. You're essentially blind at close range and again, this limits the utility of the rifle.

I'd recommend something in the neighborhood of 1 1/2x5 or 2x6 - the Trijicon you mentions sounds about perfect. I don't know how large that Trijicon is... Burris makes some very nice compact scopes in this range that would suit very well.

Keith

 

[Kaylee]

I kinda like the low-power illuminated reticule idea.. I picked up a cheapie scout version to try the concept out with, but I'm still waiting on the mount. So... no reports yet.

Now, another option is to do what Brockman aparently does with his general purpose rigs -- use QD rings and have both a red dot and a scope or two... switch as necessary. You lose a little repeatability, and there's definately more stuff to carry if you want to lug everything all over creation.. but it does give you more options.
(oh.... oops, looks like Art just said the same thing, but better. )


-K

 

[MolonLabe416]

I have pretty extensive trigger time with both the Trijicon 1.5x4 and the AimPoint. Both are excellent and both will do 99% of what needs doing if you will do.

Having said that, I'd go with the 1.5x4. Set at 1.5x, it's just as fast. The only penalty is a bit of parrallax, while the AimPoint is parrallax free.

Set at 4x, it will serve you for precise shots pretty much to the limit of your skills. The same cannot be said of the AimPoint

The AimPoint is a bit more durable as it's mil-spec, but modern variables are far more durable than those made as recently as ~10 years ago.

So, since you are looking to setup a General Purpose Rifle, not one solely dedicated to kicking doors down to serve high-risk warrants, I believe the Trijicon is the best solution.

What platform are you using? Let us know how you proceed.

 

[Soap]

I would go with the Trijicon. The liklihood of you having to use your gun defensively is minimal. Instead, buy "Art of the Rifle" by Cooper, put your scope on, and head to the range to learn riflery. Find a place in SoCal where you can shoot prarie dogs to really polish up your field skills. Also, to put it simply, your rifle isn't a fast and furious CQB weapon. It can do that job, but the chance of that is miniscule. In short, use this rifle to learn more about field shooting. Since the Trijicon can provide you with more precision, use that.

 

[cma g21]

I second what Keith said, get a low power variable.

 

[BerettaNut92]

It's an HK SLB2000.

I need to figure out a way to mount the thing first. I got an ARMS #5 and even if I figure out how to get it on there (it doesn't fit) it's too high anyway.

 

[Keith]

I don't know what a Trijicon looks like or why it would be difficult to mount.

Here is a link for a mount for your rifle: http://www.thegunsource.com/scope_mounts/HK.htm

 

[BerettaNut92]

I'm trying how to adapt it to a Picatinny style so I can put whatever optics...alternative is to get some QD Weavers...just haven't decided yet. I'd like to be able to go to irons if the scope goes TU, but I guess that's what my secondary is for

 

[444]

For the uses you mention, I would go with the red dot. I think it would provide the best solution for the activities you mention. You don't mention hunting as one of these uses. That being said, I could have easily made any shot I ever took on a big game animal with an Aimpoint and a 4 MOA dot. I have shot my Aimpoint extensively out to 400 yards. From prone I can hit a pepper popper every time at 400. At 200 I can pretty easily put all my shots on a paper plate. I am no expert with a rifle, so I think my results are pretty good considering. I wouldn't hesitate to take a 200 yard shot on a big game animal using an Aimpoint. From a steady rest I wouldn't hesitate to take a standing broadside shot on a big game animal with an Aimpoint. A very tiny percentage of hunters can effectively shoot at distances further than that.
The size of the dot has very little to do with precision shooting dispite popular myth.

 

[Art Eatman]

I gotta comment that for paper punching at anything beyond 100 yards, 9X seems real useful...

Out of curiosity, Keith,--or anyone--how close is "too close" for 3X to have too narrow a field of view? Or, beginning at what distance does it become "okay"?

Art

 

[Keith]

Art,

It isn't so much the field of view (though that's an issue too) as the blurring of close range objects.

That doesn't affect much if you're a hunter in open country or sitting in a stand where you can take your time. But when somebody says "general purpose" that has to include quick shooting at relatively close targets.

I hunted with a 3X9 for many years. I lost a deer now and again when I jumped one in brushy surroundings, but I didn't care much because I liked the idea of the high end magnification more than I cared about losing a deer now and again when I "stepped on" one in an alder thicket. When I got mauled by the grizzly, I started to re-think that position. Being able to see up close then seemed just as important as seeing far away... maybe more important!

I switched to a 1x5 and began to experiment, I found I could shoot just as well at long range with 5 power magnification as I could with 9 power. Try it yourself - dial your scope to 5 and shoot a 300 yard group. Then dial it to 9 and shoot another group. There won't be enough difference to matter.

We aren't talking about varmint or target shooting, we're talking about "general purpose" - or in our case, general hunting utility. You simply don't need that real high magnification to put a slug into a deers ribs at any range you should be shooting at a game animal. Or a human, for that matter.

If you're a sheep or antelope hunter, none of this applies - you probably need the specialized optics and rifle. If you're a general deer/moose/elk hunter who hunts in a variety of terrains (or looking into a "scout" type general purpose rifle), then maybe you should look into a low end variables. You might be better served.

And there's one other thing I came to appreciate with the low end variables - the compactness. You don't realize what a PITA those big scopes are until you switch to a compact. They just don't get in the way or get banged around as much as the big scopes.

Heck, just try it. Shoot some groups at five, and at nine power and you'll see for yourself.

Keith

 

[Pumpkinheaver]

I'd go with a 2-7x or 3-9x scope myself.

 

[Art Eatman]

I've commented somewhere or another that one of my longest one-shot kills, 350 yards, was with the scope set on 3X. Bullet went right perzackly where I'd planned...

With a 2x7 accidently left on 7X, jumping Bambi at 20 yards means you see a horn, an ear, a tail, a patch of brown--and then nothing but brush, 'cause he's gone, gone, gone. (It all worked out, 'cause he circled back and I wuz waitin'. Sorta helps to know the "He'll probably..." with Mr. Bucky.)

A K4 can be way too much scope, if a hog is ten feet away in thick cover.

Just some stuff to think about, FWIW.

Art

 

[444]

Not to be argumentitive Art, but your post sounds like an advertisement for the red dot. 4x = too much for a hog at 10 feet. Having the variable power scope set too high or too low for the shot. None are problems with the red dot.
The 350 yard shot is an extreme shot. More than anything it tells me you are a superb shot. 3x magnification isn't much. I would be willing to bet that a guy that can place a bullet right where he wants it at 350 yards with a 3x scope could do that with a 3x scope or with a red dot. Remember it isn't the equipment, it is the shooter. Equipment can't make up for the lack of skill.

I realize that the red dot is not in the mainstream particularly when we are talking about hunting rifles. I am a convert.
Over the last year I have reevaluated rifle shooting in my own mind. I have done enough of it to realize that 300 yards is about the limit to what I can pull off even on a rifle range. With a known distance, good rifle, and a very sold rest I can make hits at 400 on a paper target. These facts made me reevaluate my equipment. I think that many hunters and shooters buy equipment that far exceeds their abilities or equipment that isn't based on realistic senarios. The red dot to me seems to be the best sighting system for me at ranges I can realistically hit something with aimed rifle fire.

 

[JohnKSa]

Buy a VEPR II .308.

Buy a Kobra Red Dot on a siderail mount for about $140.

Buy a 6x or 8x Scope on a siderail mount for about $140.

Swap them out as desired.