Holder: We Want to Explore Gun Tracking Bracelets

[Lex Luthier]

Holder, Sibelius, Hillary C., Kerry, Reid et al will go down in history as the most deleterious administration in US history.

 

[DaisyCutter]

A couple thoughts:

RFID works in cars, fine. A firearm is exposed to more heat, scrubbed in solvent, and subjected to repeated explosive charges & mechanical collisions. The operating environment is not conducive to electronics. There will naturally be a power source, which will need replacement, and the access point will be contaminated with solvents/oils/dirt. When solid state laser/ray-guns and Star Trek phasers are developed, then incorporate fobs and bracelets.

Secondly, there is a "coverage" issue. My cell phone doesn't get reception in many of the places I need my gun the most. I don't foresee soldiers running to the highest hill-top and waving their rifle awkwardly over their head, hoping to get enough signal bars to fire it...

I'd suggest worrying about something relevant. Microchipped conventional firearms just aren't feasible. Incorporating a control device into a CPU driven future energy weapon will be feasible if/once the weaponry advances that far.

I'll volunteer to beta test the first bracelet fob activated 40-watt phased plasma rifle on patrol... And I'll have my trusty cumbustion driven lead projectile shooter as a back-up.

 

[goon]

Put my name at the top of the list... Right after the Secret Service tests them for ten years and makes the frequency they operate on public.

 

[Guy B. Meredith]

Forget the chip and the hacking. Just open the firearm, remove the offending electronics and

1. Remove any action blocking hardware if present or jam in place any enabling linkages
2. Wire directly to the trigger if electric activation is still needed.
3. Do a Youtube instruction video on the process of dumbing the "smart gun."

With an electronic gizmo there are two switches in series--the electronics and the trigger. Just eliminate the unneeded extra switch.

This stuff really needs to be heavily circulated to get political attention.

 

[Eb1]

Forget all that.
My guns are already smart. They just sit there until I decide to shoot them.

My wife and daughter would have been raped and dead if this stupid idea was in affect.

 

[Aventurero]

Politics as usual. I don't believe that Obamacare has anything to do with it as much as misguided politics in regards to guns and the 2nd Amendment.

 

[barnbwt]

"RFID works in cars, fine"
Baloney. My Dodge loses its 'fobick' signal somewhat regularly (even when it's not draining batteries at a hilarious rate), causing me to have to lock/unlock the vehicle before starting it again --at least the engine won't shut off when it happens while driving . It is a 'sufficient' technology, but hardly a flawless one. And it's still extremely vulnerable to hacking and jamming, regardless (a CCW'er with a pinging device could be detected and recorded/decoded from a surprising distance; at that point the recorded signal can be played back from an emitter to either unlock or lock the gun, however the thing is designed). But don't worry; we have 'laws' against jamming and hacking technology

"Forget the chip and the hacking. Just open the firearm, remove the offending electronics and..."
Nah, they'll just put ink-charges inside them, like bank bags or school fire alarms

TCB

 

[DaisyCutter]

^ Why did you buy the smart Dodge in the first place? It seems contradictory to your "logic".

 

[Ghosth]

When I saw that Hornady had come up with a gun safe that uses a RFID bracelet, key fob, card, or pin # I knew that it would not be long before they'd be wanting to put the same idea to work on guns.

The problem is bracelets, key fob's, cards can be stolen, people can be pressured or tortured the id #. That is just as true for the guns themselves as it is for lock boxes.

The only answer IMO is fingerprint or DNA both of which must have a thermal sensor. So that just cutting off a finger doesn't get it to work.

But even if they do develop the tech to do exactly that to each new gun. I'm sure someone would develop a solution to crack/hack/break it.

When are our representatives going to get smart enough to realise that you can NOT legislate morals. And there is NO substitute for them.

 

[tactikel]

What Guy said, a firearm is a very simple mechanical device. It is a dream that "Progressives/Liberals" have that they can "turn off" the guns from those they fear. I can remove any device inserted to disable a firearm in about 15 minutes. If that will trigger a remote alarm and alert drones is another story!

 

[HexHead]

I'll just keep my dumb guns.

 

[Guy B. Meredith]

FYI Many of us don't HAVE fingerprints; seniors, dish washers, fisherpersons ( ), etc. I don't. I found I can't use airport baggage lockers as they require a fingerprint.

So now poor fragile elderly people ( ) have to lug heavy baggage from one place to the other or just sit in one place and starve at the airport.

 

[barnbwt]

"If that will trigger a remote alarm and alert drones is another story!"
You'll know when the gem in your hand starts blinking

Anyone agreeing for software (different from fixed electro-mechanical system) to be placed in their gun would do well to remember the iPhone terms of use jail-breaking/bricking fiasco some years back (not too many years back, in fact)

TCB

 

[barnbwt]

"^ Why did you buy the smart Dodge in the first place? It seems contradictory to your "logic""

Ironically, because I wanted a manual transmission over the lazy automatic . Irony further compounded by the manual transmission in the Challenger being a hydraulically-assisted fly-by-wire contraption. But even though it's parsed by computers, the car more closely does exactly what I want it to. I'm not sure you can even buy a decent car anymore without a bunch of electronic bells and whistles (literally). I think even KIA's have power windows, locks, and seats nowadays.

Further evidence of RFID incompetence (by Dodge, at least) would be that the exterior door sensors occasionally get stupid and don't recognize the key right away, resulting in me muttering progressively louder "Open the pod-bay doors, HAL." :banghead:. Dodge has issued recalls or TSBs on I think all RFID sensors/components in the doors at this point (and an unofficial 'known issue' regarding the ignition system sensor I mentioned already). Not uncommon for some owners to return from work to find their doors unlocked, windows down, or trunk unlatched, either

In short; it works, but I wouldn't trust it with something as serious as a gun

TCB

 

[JSH1]

RFID works in cars, fine. A firearm is exposed to more heat, scrubbed in solvent, and subjected to repeated explosive charges & mechanical collisions. The operating environment is not conducive to electronics. There will naturally be a power source, which will need replacement, and the access point will be contaminated with solvents/oils/dirt. When solid state laser/ray-guns and Star Trek phasers are developed, then incorporate fobs and bracelets.

There are plenty of electronic devices currently attached to guns that do just fine: Flashlights, lasers, sights, etc.

Secondly, there is a "coverage" issue. My cell phone doesn't get reception in many of the places I need my gun the most. I don't foresee soldiers running to the highest hill-top and waving their rifle awkwardly over their head, hoping to get enough signal bars to fire it...

There is not a coverage issue. None of the smart gun technologies currently being devolved use cellular technology. The whole "The government will just send a signal to turn off our guns" is typical garbage from the tinfoil hat brigade. The technologies currently being developed rely on either the gun identifying the owner using biological ID from physically touching the grip, or ID using a ring or bracelet containing a RFID chip. No cell signals required.

 

[Pilot]

There are plenty of electronic devices currently attached to guns that do just fine: Flashlights, lasers, sights, etc.

Yes, but the gun will still fire if those electronic devices malfunction, batteries die, etc. There is enough that can go wrong with a mechanical device without electronics. "Smart" technology just adds another critical point of failure to a firearm.

What if your wife needs to use your gun? Will she be left vulnerable because her fingerprints, or bracelet doesn't match yours?

 

[JSH1]

Yes, but the gun will still fire if those electronic devices malfunction, batteries die, etc. There is enough that can go wrong with a mechanical device without electronics. "Smart" technology just adds another critical point of failure to a firearm.

There is a difference between what is technologically possible and what is desirable. There are electronics subjected to environments much harsher than those of a gun that work day in and day out. Electronics could be made to work in guns, though I understand that many don't want electronics in guns.

I could see benefits from electronic triggers. The trigger pull would be light and consistent and the trigger could be placed anywhere on the gun without a physical linkage between the trigger and firing pin. In my opinion that is the way to do smart guns right. Replacing the mechanical systems instead of trying to add additional electronics into that system.

What if your wife needs to use your gun? Will she be left vulnerable because her fingerprints, or bracelet doesn't match yours?

Most of the technologies being worked on enable multiply users.


EDIT: I would also like to point out the the title of this thread is wrong. Holder didn't say anything about tracking guns or gun owners.

 

[GAF]

Smart guns will give you hand cancer

 

[JRH6856]

EDIT: I would also like to point out the the title of this thread is wrong. Holder didn't say anything about tracking guns or gun owners.

No, he didn't (at least nopt that I can find). Blame the author of the referenced article for that bit of hyperbole.

 

[barnbwt]

"The trigger pull would be light and consistent and the trigger could be placed anywhere on the gun without a physical linkage between the trigger and firing pin. In my opinion that is the way to do smart guns right. Replacing the mechanical systems instead of trying to add additional electronics into that system."

Fully Electronic Smart Gun + 2 Wires + Diode Alternator = Stupid Machine Gun

And that's why the ATF has been quite reticent to approve electronic trigger designs (and especially electronic primer ignition designs)

EDIT: Yes, electronic triggers have a world of potential, from true customizability, to 0-100lb pull, to flinch detection and prevention (goes off before you can flinch). Alas, the ATF has thoroughly chilled research and development in this area of technology.

TCB

 

[Pizzapinochle]

Forget the chip and the hacking. Just open the firearm, remove the offending electronics and

1. Remove any action blocking hardware if present or jam in place any enabling linkages
2. Wire directly to the trigger if electric activation is still needed.
3. Do a Youtube instruction video on the process of dumbing the "smart gun."

With an electronic gizmo there are two switches in series--the electronics and the trigger. Just eliminate the unneeded extra switch.

This stuff really needs to be heavily circulated to get political attention.

You are really obsessed with spreading stuff you have no idea if it is true....

 

[JSH1]

No, he didn't (at least nopt that I can find). Blame the author of the referenced article for that bit of hyperbole.

I do blame the author of the original article and the website that published it. Considering it has been almost a week since that article was posted and the site has not issued a correction or retraction I have to assume that this was not a mistake but an intentional effort to misinform and stir the pot. Which means freebeacon.com is not a news source but a source for propaganda. They are not the only source that has recently been spreading this lie, foxnews did as well as have many right wing talk radio stations. My boss came into work last week parroting what he heard on the radio about how Obama wants to make all gun owners wear tracking bracelets.

I also blame you since you are the one that forwarded that article to this board without doing any fact-checking.

 

[barnbwt]

Well, he is basically describing how a car is hot-wired; it is true that you can bypass any electronic lock this way. The only reason it's harder now for cars is because integrated electronics operate engine timing, none of which is present or really possible for gun designs (unless you want a servo motor dropping your tilt-barrel 1911)

As with all other electronic security devices, the only real way to prevent their bypass is to restrict access (safes, cars, doors) which doesn't really follow for something like a gun that users will want to be capable of servicing. A smart drop-in trigger module like a Timney that is not user-serviceable might be a possibility, though.

TCB

 

[JRH6856]

I also blame you since you are the one that forwarded that article to this board without doing any fact-checking.

Fair enough. I got the link from the NRA which shared in on FaceBook. At the time, I couldn't find much else (but I figured when I posted it here, there would be more than just me looking.) Since that time, the NRA has shared three more stories on the subject:

Eric “Fast and Furious” Holder Pushes to Track American Gun Owners (Townhall Finance, April 08, 2014)

Smart Guns are Dumb (National Review, April 9, 2014)

Holder Floats Taxpayer-Funded "Smart" Gun Research (NRA-ILA, April 11, 2014)

As noted in the last, “Some commentators concluded that Holder endorsed "gun tracking" technology. Whether or not he specifically had that in mind, it does serve to raise questions about where such technology could lead or, more to the point, where gun control supporters would want it to lead.” Everyone is, of course, free to make up their own minds. Make of it what you will.

 

[Guy B. Meredith]

Pizzapinochle,

Well, prove it is not correct. Provide one design that cannot be defeated. Should be easy, right?? Uh, right?

I have an obsession about people accepting that tech is infallible and the tendency to play the game, play within the box instead of going outside the box.