If those things were clear to you, why did your argument seem to hinge on the attackers' " keeping up the attack" and "determination to win"?
How Much Capacity Is Needed?
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herrwalther
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4? It carries 5. Do you carry with the hammer on an empty chamber for safety?
Styx
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If it ended in a solution, the same people would not be regurgitating the same information in these debates ad nauseam. The info and points on both sides have been made over and over again in several threads prior to this one. Everyone simply disregards and dismisses any stats or evidence that goes against what they already feel.
We let these threads run because there are always new people reading them. There are a lot of people who read the threads but never post. Often the threads are started by someone new to THR, new to ST&T or new to shooting. They join THR and read this sub forum to learn.
We would be better at our mission if people would refrain from the off topic comments and wise cracks about the forum.
No one forces anyone to post here. If you have personal problem with someone’s comment or the moderation of the sub forum there are ways for you to express that without cluttering up the thread. We’ve been pretty lenient by just deleting the posts but it’s time to change that policy.
ST&T is meant to be an educational forum and if a member continues to be disruptive because of a personal grievance with the staff, how the forum is moderated or another member and expresses that grievance by disruptive posts in a discussion the member can get some time off THR.
We don’t suspend or ban many members in this sub forum and it makes me sad to have to issue this public warning.
People do crave actual data. That's understandable.
But we won't get much data regarding civilian defensive shootings, for several reasons:
Edited to add: there are police videos that show us how many shots have been fired in some encounters. They cannot tell us how many rounds "are enough".
But we won't get much data regarding civilian defensive shootings, for several reasons:
- Very few civilian defensive shooting incidents occur.
- Data from police investigative reports are not collected for analysis.
- Participants in such incidents are responsibly advised by counsel to remain mum--forever, when fatalities occur.
- Participants in incidents that involve civil litigation, which is almost settled out of court, are bound by the strict terms of the settlements to maintain strict confidentiality forever.
- Few civilians wear body cams, and if they do the recordings will not prudently be made public
Edited to add: there are police videos that show us how many shots have been fired in some encounters. They cannot tell us how many rounds "are enough".
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I think it clear that Jeff's first paragraph addressed the sentiment that leaving the thread open is not fruitful. It may not be for some, but as Jeff says, we are here for others.
We need not publicly discuss the reasons for his subsequent paragraphs.
Styx
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He quoted me publicly when he made that statement, so that is why publicly responded just in case I was misunderstood. It's a done deal.
The first paragraph of the response applied directly to your post, as well as to those of several others.
Styx
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Let it go man. I know that he explained why THR allowed such topics to continuously be brought up. My response was to the other paragraphs pretaining to attacking mods and how they run the forum.
I deleted my comment and squashed it already. FWIW, after rereading my prior post, the smilie face at the end wasn't meant to be condescending just in case it was received that way. I don't know.
jmorris
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They get even worse if you run out of ammunition, when your life depends upon it the most.
mcb
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I would argue that when this thread comes to a close nearly all of the people that have read and/or participated in the discussion will have come to a solid number for the minimum capacity with which they are comfortable carrying. That number will no doubt vary from a fair bit from person to person do to each person's assessment of the data and it's impact on their lifestyle and risk tolerance. That's just fine in my book.
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"How Much Capacity Is Needed?" is the wrong question. The right question is "What are the logistics needed to support my EDC mission?"
gyp_c2
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There may come a day when some of us hear the right story, at the right time, that encourages us to try something that we've never tried before and results in one of the great outcomes that positively affects our lives.
That alone is a reason to continue these.
If you don't get that, there's plenty of other threads available.
That alone is a reason to continue these.
If you don't get that, there's plenty of other threads available.
Bad guys run in threes to fives, often enough, around here, to make “continuity of fire” a desirable option. Serious, heavy-hitter bad guys, and, perhaps even more dangerous, young, the want-to-be-serious bad guys. “Here” is a very large metro area in the SE quadrant of Texas. Houston is the best-known city, but much of the violence actually occurs in unincorporated areas patrolled by sheriff’s and constable’s duties, and in the municipalities other than Houston. We live in one of the smaller cities, which is statistically rather safe, but a loop of the Interstate Highway system passes right through here, north to south, and two major east-west boulevards extend west into some of Houston’s notorious neighborhoods, including an area that became known as New Orlean’s “new Ninth Ward,” after so many Katrina refugees settled there. I worked for Houston PD for 33+ years, retiring in 2018, so worked quite a few shooting scenes, and heard reliable anecdotes about many more.
Based upon this totality of circumstances, I am never going to assume that we have three-shot-average gunfights, in these parts.
Having said that, I am personally relatively comfortable carrying what many consider to be relatively low-capacity firearms. That does not mean, however, that I consider a Glock G17, and two or three spare magazines, to be “excessive,” even though that load-out is 50+ total cartridges. The risk of having to engage a car-load of thugs may be low, but, as the saying goes, “it is not zero.”
The handgun nearest me, as I type this, in the wee hours of the morning, when I am not dressed, so am not actually wearing a gun, is a Glock Gen4 G17, which I bought in 2015, to be my new duty pistol, when my then-chief OK’ed 9mm to be an alternative duty cartridge. (.40 S&W, fired through my higher-bore-axis P229R, had really been vexing my arthritic right thumb/hand/wrist. The Glock G17, the orthopedic, ambidextrous, plastic gun.) There are two magazines for the G17, also nearby. (If someone were to try to breach the door, I would probably opt for one of the shotguns, but that is getting off-topic.)
When actually out and about, during daylight, later, I will probably tote a .357 revolver. My trigger time suffered, during the panic-demic, due to having to stay away from shooting ranges, and long-stroke DA is my most ingrained trigger skill. I am more accurate, over distance, with a DA revolver. My long-stroke DA trigger skill is less-perishable than my Glock trigger skill, by a considerable margin. Long-stroke DA is my most-ambidextrous trigger skill. I love 1911 pistols, but my two thoroughly-vetted 1911 pistols lack ambidextrous safety* levers, and my right hand is not aging well. So, yes, I am, at least for now, mostly carrying revolvers, and not feeling any ammo-capacity inferiority complex.
Edited to add: A reason for the G17 being the “house gun,” at the moment, in spite of less recent trigger time, is because it has night sights, and a rail for my X300. The range, inside the house, is short enough for me to not worry about the Glock’s lesser accuracy potential, over distance, compared to a DA revolver.
*Actually, I have yet to meet an ambidextrous safety, on a 1911, that I favor.
Based upon this totality of circumstances, I am never going to assume that we have three-shot-average gunfights, in these parts.
Having said that, I am personally relatively comfortable carrying what many consider to be relatively low-capacity firearms. That does not mean, however, that I consider a Glock G17, and two or three spare magazines, to be “excessive,” even though that load-out is 50+ total cartridges. The risk of having to engage a car-load of thugs may be low, but, as the saying goes, “it is not zero.”
The handgun nearest me, as I type this, in the wee hours of the morning, when I am not dressed, so am not actually wearing a gun, is a Glock Gen4 G17, which I bought in 2015, to be my new duty pistol, when my then-chief OK’ed 9mm to be an alternative duty cartridge. (.40 S&W, fired through my higher-bore-axis P229R, had really been vexing my arthritic right thumb/hand/wrist. The Glock G17, the orthopedic, ambidextrous, plastic gun.) There are two magazines for the G17, also nearby. (If someone were to try to breach the door, I would probably opt for one of the shotguns, but that is getting off-topic.)
When actually out and about, during daylight, later, I will probably tote a .357 revolver. My trigger time suffered, during the panic-demic, due to having to stay away from shooting ranges, and long-stroke DA is my most ingrained trigger skill. I am more accurate, over distance, with a DA revolver. My long-stroke DA trigger skill is less-perishable than my Glock trigger skill, by a considerable margin. Long-stroke DA is my most-ambidextrous trigger skill. I love 1911 pistols, but my two thoroughly-vetted 1911 pistols lack ambidextrous safety* levers, and my right hand is not aging well. So, yes, I am, at least for now, mostly carrying revolvers, and not feeling any ammo-capacity inferiority complex.
Edited to add: A reason for the G17 being the “house gun,” at the moment, in spite of less recent trigger time, is because it has night sights, and a rail for my X300. The range, inside the house, is short enough for me to not worry about the Glock’s lesser accuracy potential, over distance, compared to a DA revolver.
*Actually, I have yet to meet an ambidextrous safety, on a 1911, that I favor.
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I am also a high capacity guy and I agree with your train of thought on this, if you have hand problems, capacity takes a distant back seat. We need to carry what we shoot best. My wife has hand issues so she carries a steel 357 magnum with light loads and a big Houge grip. I would rather she carry a 10+ round semi auto but she can't rack the slide and doesn't like the trigger on most. She also learned to shoot with the long DA trigger and is really good with here gun so high capacity will never be an option for here.
So you chose to ignore or discount the data that is available because it doesn't support your conclusions?
I have not mentioned any conclusions. I know of no valid actual data that are available that are sufficient to support any conclusions..
DeepSouth
Random Guy
I just have to point out data can lie, I’ve never really I stood this obsession with stats and data and study’s and the like.
For instance:
I’ve been carrying a CCW for for about 20 years.
I have a brother that’s been carrying for 15(ish) years
I have a very good friend I went to high school with that’s been carrying for 20+ years.
That’s approximately 20,000 days of concealed carry.
Their have been a total of zero shots fired in self defense (against humans)
So far theirs nothing but facts and data points, over 20,000 data points, in a study conducted over 2 decades.
Nevertheless we all know all that couldn’t be less relevant.
The point is not that data is irrelevant
The point is self defense related study’s and data are very fluid and affected by more circumstances than we can imagine and predict nothing.
IMO all that data should be taken with a few grains of salt.
At the end of the day carry what you want, and accept that other people will disagree and they can carry what they want, and everyone goes home happy.
For instance:
I’ve been carrying a CCW for for about 20 years.
I have a brother that’s been carrying for 15(ish) years
I have a very good friend I went to high school with that’s been carrying for 20+ years.
That’s approximately 20,000 days of concealed carry.
Their have been a total of zero shots fired in self defense (against humans)
So far theirs nothing but facts and data points, over 20,000 data points, in a study conducted over 2 decades.
Nevertheless we all know all that couldn’t be less relevant.
The point is not that data is irrelevant
The point is self defense related study’s and data are very fluid and affected by more circumstances than we can imagine and predict nothing.
IMO all that data should be taken with a few grains of salt.
At the end of the day carry what you want, and accept that other people will disagree and they can carry what they want, and everyone goes home happy.
My experience mirrors that. But it tells us absolutely nothing about what may unfold should it become necessary to shoot.
You came to the conclusion to carry a gun right?
I do for now. The safety notch was making me nervious and to get myself to actually carry it, I just went with 4.
If you don't care, why post. (rhetorical)
If you don't like a topic it should be banned. LOL.
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