How Much Capacity Is Needed?

[Hangingrock]

You as an individual are not in the military and or law enforcement. So as a citizen your state of residence sets and establishes the standards required for a citizen to obtain a concealed carry weapons permit. Past that no additional training is required. If by chance your are a NRA member you receive a publication each month that contains the ?Armed Citizen Column? that takes excerpts from printed news sources. Some people note that the NRA "Cherry Picks" news excerpts from successful outcomes. The average person as no incentive to obtain additional training. Then we have the Training Cartel that in printed material and the forums on the internet admonishes the average citizen to obtain training.

You have trainers that are self promoters such as Col Cooper the earliest one I can recollect when Guns&Ammo magazine sold for 35 or 50 cent a copy. Today there are multitudes of Trainers.

 

[Lo-Profile]

My EDC is a officer framed 4.25" 1911 with 2 spare magazines. 1+21 .... I have thought about the "lack of" ammo.
I do have a 18" sling pack that holds a 7.5" AR with a Law Tactical folder, 20 round mag inserted with 3x30 extra. Trijicon MRO optics mounted on a 1/4" riser. Works and shoots well.

 

[azrn]

my ideal carry is a glock 30 with 10 rd mag and 1 spare mag; with a 5 shot snubby with 1 speed strip.

 

[fastbolt]

To quote the John Wicks of this thread do you have a source with the stats on this dismaying number?

Nah, just experiential knowledge watching the world go by as unfortunate events come calling for many folks.

Funny how some folks like to think that facts live and die with statistics, though, when in reality folks can become part of statistics when they live or die based upon their actions, and what they think they know.

 

[fastbolt]

A random thought just occurred to me ...

Life can be a cautionary tale. Do your part.

 

[mavracer]

Nah, just experiential knowledge watching the world go by as unfortunate events come calling for many folks.

Funny how some folks like to think that facts live and die with statistics, though, when in reality folks can become part of statistics when they live or die based upon their actions, and what they think they know.

Likewise I think it's funny how folks want to separate the facts from statistics and then alternate between them to justify the magic of their chosen compromise that it's the best, when best compromise is an oxymoron.

 

[Kleanbore]

Likewise I think it's funny how folks want to separate the facts from statistics and then alternate between them to justify the magic of their chosen compromise that it's the best, when best compromise is an oxymoron.

Fastbolt was discussing training, saying "better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it." Just what, in that part of the discussion, has he put forth as his "chosen compromise"?

 

[mavracer]

Fastbolt was discussing training, saying "better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it." Just what, in that part of the discussion, has he put forth as his "chosen compromise"?

Did I say he was was necessarily one of the folks?
Is this a thread about capacity?
Is capacity of a CCW not a compromise?
Is the amount of time a person trains not a compromise?
Sure more is better, but how much more and how much better is it and who gets to decide?

 

[Balrog]

I would generally always favor higher capacity and faster reloads over lower capacity and slower reloads, especially these days when you may up unintentionally at a peaceful riot just driving through a city.

That said, compromises generally have to be made for concealed carry. Right now I favor a Glock 43 or 48, with an extra 10 round mag in pocket.

 

[GEM]

Among the trainer set, the slim 9 Glocks are very popular. As far as training, serious FOF beyond the one mugger who flees will give you a handle on capacity and ease of reloads. If you don’t want to train, that’s your problem if you screw up and fail.

 

[TomJ]

I'm wondering how much of these capacity debates are based on perceptions based on our situations. I currently own houses in the Chicago area, where I was born and raised and as of the beginning of the summer in rural Wisconsin, where I've been since the beginning of June. The area Chicago my house is located in has a low crime rate but is not crime free, with many crimes being committed by multiple attackers. The norm among myself and my friends who carry is 13 to 15 rounds, with one to two additional magazines. Given the real possibility of facing 4 or more attackers, this is not unreasonable. My house in Wisconsin is in an area where the gang issue we see in Chicago is not a problem and the crime rate is so low my neighbors have told me they often times don't lock their doors (I won't do that). I can see how someone who was born and raised in this environment can view 5 rounds as being sufficient as they've never dealt with the issues we see in Chicago. I can also see how trying to convince someone who's experienced the bad in Chicago that 5 rounds is sufficient or someone from this rural area of Wisconsin that they need 15 rounds plus a back up magazine or two would be difficult.

 

[CDW4ME]

I'm wondering how much of these capacity debates are based on perceptions based on our situations.
The norm among myself and my friends who carry is 13 to 15 rounds, with one to two additional magazines. Given the real possibility of facing 4 or more attackers, this is not unreasonable.

What I futilely (but not naively) encourage is carry a pistol that would be preferred in hand anywhere, everywhere.
Often people carry something minimal (pocket 32/380) in a perceived "good area" but carry more where they perceive greater threat. Not me.
I live in a ̶g̶o̶o̶d̶ excellent area, gone for a week with truck unlocked in driveway and twenty something dollars cash in unlocked console, still there.
What would be preferred to defend myself? A pocket 32/380? No, definitely not preferred. A Glock 19/23/32 - Yes. Its that simple.
Your 13-15 rounds with a spare mag is not unreasonable in your situation, or mine.

 

[JR24]

I can also see how trying to convince someone who's experienced the bad in Chicago that 5 rounds is sufficient or someone from this rural area of Wisconsin that they need 15 rounds plus a back up magazine or two would be difficult.

Hey, I'm in rural WI and you don't need to convince me. Methheads run in packs too.

But it is true when I see guys at the range pull out their carry gun it's usually a .380 or single stack micro 9.

 

[herrwalther]

This just happened in an area very close to me.
https://www.al.com/news/2021/07/man...s-in-fultondale-home-invasion-identified.html

3 masked individuals kill one in home invasion. This happened in what is considered a "good" area. Even says in the article there hasn't been a murder in town since 2016. Saying you are in a good area is a panacea we feed ourselves to feel better. Any place you can encounter other people has the possibility for crime.

In a 3 on 1 situation, how many people here would be confident with their 5 shot revolver? Capacity matters.

 

[TomJ]

What I futilely (but not naively) encourage is carry a pistol that would be preferred in hand anywhere, everywhere.

Hey, I'm in rural WI and you don't need to convince me. Methheads run in packs too.

I agree that making decisions based on what you think will happen isn't a good idea and I don't change what I carry based on where I am. I've experienced the unexpected too many times to do that. I carry my Shield Plus with 2 extra magazines here in WI or when I'm back in Ilinois.

 

[mcb]

Why wouldn't you carry different weapons depending on location and conditions? When I am around town I need it to be concealed so I carry a smaller gun that is easier to conceal. When I head out to the hunting property I no longer feel the need or advantage to concealment so I step up to a much larger more shootable handgun and often have a rifle handy too. I can comfortably conceal a larger more capable gun under my winter wardrobe than I can my summer wear. Why would you not step up when you can and step down when needed?

 

[Kleanbore]

Mcb has a valid point.

In some situations, one's dress may necessarily limit one's carry pice to something more concealable than what one might otherwise want to carry. In others, particularly on one's private rural property, concealment may not be a consideration at all.

That is based on constraints, and it does not mean that choosing a firearm on the basis of how likely the need might materialize would represent sound risk management. If we expect trouble, we should stay away.

Of course if bears have been rooting through cabins and garages, the LCP II we might carry to a formal dinner might not be a prudent choice for carrying at the lake.

 

[TomJ]

Why wouldn't you carry different weapons depending on location and conditions? When I am around town I need it to be concealed so I carry a smaller gun that is easier to conceal. When I head out to the hunting property I no longer feel the need or advantage to concealment so I step up to a much larger more shootable handgun and often have a rifle handy too. I can comfortably conceal a larger more capable gun under my winter wardrobe than I can my summer wear. Why would you not step up when you can and step down when needed?

It may be a fine distinction, but to me there's a difference between carrying a different gun because of a change in circumstances versus doing so because I'm trying to predict the probability and nature of an attack. I've had too many experiences with serious things happening which were statistically improbable to guess what may happen.

 

[mavracer]

Among the trainer set, the slim 9 Glocks are very popular. As far as training, serious FOF beyond the one mugger who flees will give you a handle on capacity and ease of reloads. If you don’t want to train, that’s your problem if you screw up and fail.

This is exactly the kind of post I find amusing.
Even super duper serious FOF training only addresses psychological stops and doesn't address physiological stops if they don't make this really clear it's not good training IMHO. Sure it can simulate how difficult it is to get hits and reload in a dynamic situation but what does it tell you about the number of hits it will take to cause a physical stop?
If you're really concerned about this multiple determined attackers enough to spend time and money on training then a single stack 9mm seams halfway there.
I can at least see CDW4ME's point to carry the gun you want in a bad situation.

 

[GEM]

Well, we usually find your posts amusing for being irrelevant. In the professional world, there is concern that 10 round mag limits might become nation wide, so training with the 10 round slim lines is being current. You may not be aware of such developments.

 

[Kleanbore]

It may be a fine distinction, but to me there's a difference between carrying a different gun because of a change in circumstances versus doing so because I'm trying to predict the probability and nature of an attack. I've had too many experiences with serious things happening which were statistically improbable to guess what may happen.

I don't see it as a fine distinction a all. There is a very fundamental difference between the two concepts.

 

[mcb]

Well, we usually find your posts amusing for being irrelevant. In the professional world, there is concern that 10 round mag limits might become nation wide, so training with the 10 round slim lines is being current. You may not be aware of such developments.

Training with 10rd magazine because you think they might pass a law seem a rather pessimistic way to go about life. And this is from the guy carrying a J-frame more often than not. I am not going to change anything I am doing now because of laws not yet on the books, no way no how.

 

[mcb]

I don't see it as a fine distinction a all. There is a very fundamental difference between the two concepts.

How so, if you're going to go in bear country are you going to carry the same gun that you carry on you in the inner city? I suspect not, and why not, because you anticipate different threats.

 

[GEM]

To each his or her own, some folks live in ban states and find guns like the G48 or similar a good choice. Professional trainers, esp. some who travel want to be up on the guns. Also, they are testing out various RDS combos on the slimmer guns. An 11 round initial load is better than 5. If one can carry a 15+ gun, that all the better.

 

[Kleanbore]

How so, if you're going to go in bear country are you going to carry the same gun that you carry on you in the inner city? I suspect not, an why not, because you anticipate different threats.

Of course not, and I said so before.

I do not :"anticipate" threats, but I mitigate different risks.

Bears vs thugs? That's really more of difference in circumstance--bear county vs not bear country, and we can usually carry things we cannot carry in the inner city--than a game of trying to play with probabilities on a continuum.