I thought IDPA was about..

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How? It would be a judgment call made by the SO on the spot, of course, but I'd be quite likely to back them up if they did so.

And therein lies the rub. Long story short, I ran a State level IDPA match. A shooter did something, it was brought to my attention, I could find no rule prohibiting his action, so I assessed no penalty. A shooter later related the incident to Ken Hackathorn. Instead of citing a rule, guideline or principal, Hackathorn's first and only question was, "what class was he?"

Why would it matter? If the action was wrong, then it's wrong regardless of the shooters ranking.

On another note, it seems that those that say "its not about winning" are the same ones that complain the most about not winning.
 
Shooting a nonthreat to gain a time advantage would likely be pretty easy to spot in the event that you could design a stage in such a way to make it possible. It would be FTDR worthy regardless of class.
 
And therein lies the rub. Long story short, I ran a State level IDPA match. A shooter did something, it was brought to my attention, I could find no rule prohibiting his action, so I assessed no penalty. A shooter later related the incident to Ken Hackathorn. Instead of citing a rule, guideline or principal, Hackathorn's first and only question was, "what class was he?"

Why would it matter? If the action was wrong, then it's wrong regardless of the shooters ranking.
Yes, and we've discussed that before. I don't agree with such a simplistic statement by KH, though I think I understand what he was getting at. An FTDR is (at least in part) a mindset problem. The action itself is not a major fault (though a minor one), but doing it purposefully is. Therefore it is quite difficult to fairly assess such a penalty. It is absolutely NOT class-specific, but the experience and practices of the individual shooter certainly can provide a strong clue as to their mindset toward the spirit of the sport and the willfulness of that action. Anyone who says, "I'll take the penalty because I come out ahead..." under any circumstances is, by definition, earning the FTDR.

However, IDPA also instructs MDs to be mindful of these issues and to do all they can to create no situations which will put the shooters in temptation of committing such violations. (And of putting the SOs in a position to have to assess those penalties.)

If the COF was set up so poorly that head-shooting a hostage really DID earn a fast shooter fewer points down than shooting the stage correctly, that's the fault of the MD, and the stage should be tossed.

...


As a practical example of how this could be called? Say the scenario is set up so that the threat target is behind a non-threat close to and visible to the shooter at the start of the stage, but the activator for that threat to pop out won't be hit until late in the stage, forcing the shooter to reposition to re-engage that threat when otherwise he'd be able to finish more quickly without having to come back and hit that threat. He could plug the good and bad guy at the beginning, and never have to return to engage the bad guy as intended. In certain stages, I guess, this maybe could save the 5 seconds. But it would also be PERFECTLY clear that the shooter did that completely intentionally.

I'd give an FTDR for that, absolutely. And the SO would be able to verify when and how that shot was taken.

But the same stage, shot correctly but the shooter returns to that target and accidentally clips the non-threat on his last shot? No, that's clearly accidental.

Again, though...bad stage design.
 
I never agreed with penetrable targets for the reasons cited (and others)

In your scenario, yes, it'd be very clear.
 
There is no requirement that an IDPA rule infraction has to confer a "competitive advantage" to be penalized.

An intentional shoot-through of a non-threat target might well be considered a "travesty of the sport" by a tough SO or MD. But it is also hard to call, unless the shooter is dumb enough to brag about his plans.
 
There is no requirement that an IDPA rule infraction has to confer a "competitive advantage" to be penalized.

Nope, but it does tend to make it a little easier to spot! :)
 
I've been a few times and focused on competing with MYSELF and working on my own skills. Great for doing that under pressure/time.

However, I do have to say that I think some of these rigs these folks use is plain stupid - gaming the system rather than working on practical skills. If they're there to simply "win" and beat folks using real ammo and actual carry guns, then so be it. They can pat themselvs on the back. But with rigs that hold their guns out from their hips like Robocop, home loaded ammo that offers nearly no recoil, and huge red dot holograph sites... I mean come on... Is that your nightstand gun? Your carry gun?
 
However, I do have to say that I think some of these rigs these folks use is plain stupid - gaming the system rather than working on practical skills. If they're there to simply "win" and beat folks using real ammo and actual carry guns, then so be it. They can pat themselvs on the back. But with rigs that hold their guns out from their hips like Robocop, home loaded ammo that offers nearly no recoil, and huge red dot holograph sites... I mean come on... Is that your nightstand gun? Your carry gun?

Are you sure you were attending an IDPA event? Not one of those things you mentioned is legal in IDPA competition.

1) Holster has to sit close to the body and be appropriate for concealed carry. Anything more than 3/4" of gap is not acceptable. No drops or offsets allowed (except for the ladies whos' hips and waists are shaped differently).
2) Loads used must make minimum power floors that equate standard duty ammo.
3) No optical sights or lasers, period.

So what game were you shooting? :scrutiny:
 
I've been a few times and focused on competing with MYSELF and working on my own skills. Great for doing that under pressure/time.

However, I do have to say that I think some of these rigs these folks use is plain stupid - gaming the system rather than working on practical skills. If they're there to simply "win" and beat folks using real ammo and actual carry guns, then so be it. They can pat themselvs on the back. But with rigs that hold their guns out from their hips like Robocop, home loaded ammo that offers nearly no recoil, and huge red dot holograph sites... I mean come on... Is that your nightstand gun? Your carry gun?
I know! This one time, I went to a Formula 1 race, and those cars are a joke! Those drivers were just gaming the system, looking for competitve advantage instead of working on their practical skills. Yeah, they go fast, but with giant spoilers on the front and back, huge exposed tires, and lousy gas mileage...come on! Are those their daily commuters?
 
As far as the "shoot through NT being and advantage" stage assuming their was actually an advantage and all, it shows a very poor stage design by someone with little experience.

Instead of citing a rule, guideline or principal, Hackathorn's first and only question was, "what class was he?"
This is a common tactic among shooters who are slow. It is much less work to slow fast shooters down than it is to become a fast shooter yourself.
 
However, I do have to say that I think some of these rigs these folks use is plain stupid - gaming the system rather than working on practical skills. If they're there to simply "win" and beat folks using real ammo and actual carry guns, then so be it. They can pat themselvs on the back. But with rigs that hold their guns out from their hips like Robocop, home loaded ammo that offers nearly no recoil, and huge red dot holograph sites... I mean come on... Is that your nightstand gun? Your carry gun?

You are talking about USPSA and clearly do not fully understand it.

There are SIX divisions, "Open" division, to which you refer, is but one of them. You are not competing against them, you are competing against folks that are using the same type of gun and gear as you.

Open division is intentionally left to be, well, open, where nearly anything goes. This is how we discover new things, like red dot sights and compensators/porting, etc. they are only competing against other Open shooters, no one else.

Is Open division practical? I understand that some entry teams use an Open style handgun for the first guy thru the door, but mostly, it's FUN! Why does every shot fired have to relate to building defense skills? Why can't it simply be fun? Some people want to know what is possible with an Open gun, then see how close they can come to it with their regular gun.

USPSA, like IDPA, is a smorgasbord. Take what you like, leave what you don't. But if someone takes something from the table you personally don't care for, it's pointless to whine about it.
 
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It is much less work to slow fast shooters down than it is to become a fast shooter yourself.
It may seem that way, but it doesn't work very good it's really hard to slow the really good ones down. I still remember a early humbling USPSA experiance with a master class shooter and a single shot race gun.
 
It was USPSA, I stand corrected. My sincere appologies for the wrong accronym for an event I participated in a few times. Did not mean to elicit such scorn.

I'm not "whining" about anything. I clearly stated that I was competing with MYSELF but commenting on the absurd rigs that others used as not being practical.
 
Ok, sorry to jump on you, but the OP's frustration was with IDPA, specifically because of its stated purpose and goal, being focued on traditional concepts of "real world" self-defense shooting scenarios and concealed carry gear.

That's a goal USPSA/IPSC doesn't have. Complaining about the use of impractical competition only gear at a USPSA match is like complaining about non-street-legal vehicles in auto racing. That's not the point of the exercise.
 
I'm not "whining" about anything. I clearly stated that I was competing with MYSELF but commenting on the absurd rigs that others used as not being practical.

Is golf practical? What golfer carries a 9-iron for defense? ((Bob Hope excluded). Yet, many people play and enjoy golf, impractical tho it is.

By the way, in USPSA, the ammo needs to make Power Factor, at least "minor" and preferably "major." Trust me, the Open shooters are using ammo that makes "major," which has more oomph than any factory 9mm load.
 
Both IDPA and IPSC are what you make of it. I've shot many matches with the same gun over the past 15 years. A box stock Springer with GI sights. The only thing that differs from my carry set up is the use of 10 round mags. I don't compete against anyone but myself, but it always makes me smile a little when I score higher than someone in open with equipment that it the newest greatest thing since sliced bread. Yes it can be competitive, but really unless you out there as a sponsored shooter, it should be used to increase your own skill and have fun. Just my worthless opinion.
 
Why would you want to?
I don't and didn't mean to imply I did, mearly attempting to point out the better shooters are better shooters mostly because they are better shooters not because of equipment.
I doubt that any consistant master class IDPA shooter would drop to expert because you made them use a IWB holster or +p ammo.
 
I don't know of any commonly available 9mm FMJ ammo that won't hit the 130s for power factor.

No excuses for shooting sub-power for your caliber.

Bovice - you might want to reconsider that. PMC Brass didn't even make 121 PF out of a 4-1/2" barrel - and unfortunately I found out at a major match at the chrono.

Just because it's factory ammo doesn't mean it will make power factor in IDPA or USPSA.
 
Bovice - you might want to reconsider that. PMC Brass didn't even make 121 PF out of a 4-1/2" barrel - and unfortunately I found out at a major match at the chrono.
Hate for you to find out after you were DQed from a sanctioned match but your ammunition doesn't have to make power factor out of a 4.5" barrel. It just has to make it from a barrel max legal length for division.
 
I doubt that any consistant master class IDPA shooter would drop to expert because you made them use a IWB holster or +p ammo.
Thats kind of a trick statement. In CDP you have to shoot 165pf ammo yet to make master you have to shoot the classifier 7 seconds faster than if you shoot 125pf in SSP.
 
Thats kind of a trick statement. In CDP you have to shoot 165pf ammo yet to make master you have to shoot the classifier 7 seconds faster than if you shoot 125pf in SSP.

It wasn't my statement, but I don't see it as a tricky way to say something. He didn't say anything about changing divisions, only changing to a IWB holster, or to a harder kicking +P load. (where the PF might be 200 instead of 165)

The reason the SSP time is longer for the Classifier is because of the DA trigger pull in many guns found in the division.
 
It wasn't my statement, but I don't see it as a tricky way to say something. He didn't say anything about changing divisions, only changing to a IWB holster, or to a harder kicking +P load. (where the PF might be 200 instead of 165)
David you can probably shed a lot of light on my premise, How much does it slow you down to go from 125pf to 165pf? I'm betting it ain't much.
What would using a IWB holster instead of a IDPA legal OWB add to your draw time?
 
David you can probably shed a lot of light on my premise, How much does it slow you down to go from 125pf to 165pf? I'm betting it ain't much.
What would using a IWB holster instead of a IDPA legal OWB add to your draw time?

If you know and apply proper technique, there is precious little difference between a 9mm and a .45 split times (time between shots). I recently did this very thing, firing 6 shots on a 7 yd target within an 8" circle/group. There was an average of .017 (17/1000's) difference as I recall. (You can search it and see the exact number I posted, I can't find it searching with the iPhone)

As for the IWB draw, presuming good gear, practice, etc, at most it adds 1/4 second to the draw, but usually less, if any at all.
 
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