"If I'm going into a bad area..."

[RetiredUSNChief]

I recently ran across this phrase elsewhere in the forum and thought it was worth discussing here.

It's safe to say that the vast majority of us here are firearms enthusiasts of some sort. Duh, this is a firearms forum. Also safe to say that a significant percentage of us carry as well. And whatever our persuasion, there are opinions all over the place on a variety of subjects.

Well, here's my opinion on "If I'm going into a bad area..."

WHY ARE YOU GOING INTO A BAD AREA IN THE FIRST PLACE?


That isn't in caps because I necessarily think it's a "stupid thing to do". It's in caps because this is EXACTLY the question you should be asking yourself BEFORE going into a "bad area".

Are you going into a "bad area" because:

- It's convenient to you and you think the gun on your hip will provide for your safety?

- You live there and carrying in your response to the known/perceived dangers?

- You frequently drive through that area going to and from work and home?

- You're meeting someone whose vehicle has broken down there?


I bring this up because self-defense is MORE than just carrying a firearm. It's a holistic concept that starts with oneself and includes situational awareness, forethought, training, ability, dedication, and means. (And any number of other things one can think of.) It's NEVER "just" the means.

If you believe you have to adjust your defense posture because you intend to go into a known bad area, then a bit of additional forethought is warranted in order to assess and mitigate the risks BEFOREHAND. Such as:

- Do I REALLY need to go to that bad area?

- Would it be better if I just drove past here to the next available gas station in a better, more well lit and populated area?

- Should I maybe go to this other grocery store at this time of night?

- Can it wait until a better time?

- Can I call someone to meet me elsewhere?

- Should I have friends with me before I go?

Of course, these are not all inclusive considerations.


My point in all this is that there appears to be a not-insignificant-number of people who assess acceptable risks based on how well they're armed rather than in terms of a comprehensive risk management approach.

One's EDC is just that...one's every day carry. Your EDC isn't supposed to be a key to entry into dangerous places, a key which can be changed out to allow entry into more or less dangerous places. It's supposed to be ONE tool among many available to you with which you can defend yourself if needed. And while there are better (and worse) tools to be had, I submit if you find yourself assessing which tool to change out to based on places you perceive to be more (or less) dangerous, then maybe you're not effectively utilizing the most important tool you ALWAYS have with you: your brain.

If you GOTTA go there, you gotta go. But don't confuse "gotta go" with "like to go", "want to go", or "convenient to go".


I once related a story a brother of mine told me about having stopped at some convience store/gas station for something late one night. Part of the story was how dangerous it was and what he was carrying.

I don't remember who it was here, just that it was another THR brother whose postings tend to make people think. Paraphrasing, he asked "Why did your brother CHOOSE to stop there in the first place, knowing it to be a dangerous place?"

THAT, my friends, is thought provoking. Is that soda REALLY worth stopping in a place you perceive to be dangerous, just because you're armed? Do you REALLY need to stop there to get gas at that time of night, or can you just go on home and get some gas tomorrow?


Your firearm does NOT provide you with "safety". It provides you with a means of projecting deadly force in self-defense in the event that your safety has already gone out the window.

 

[rhino465]

@RetiredUSNChief - well said!

 

[chiefs-special-guy]

Good advice. Nothing good happens late at night in a sketchy neighborhood. The gun is just a piece of your efforts to avoid being a victim, and for most people, not the most important piece.

 

[The Night Rider]

There is a lot to address in this topic.

My Philosophy has always been a carry the largest gun I can reasonably conceal and at least one reload.

In Colorado I'm limited to 15 rounds no matter what so I carry a Glock 19.

I've said this before a bunch of times, "If I feel the need to upgrade my Armament to go anywhere then I probably don't need to go there at all."

After working Security in Colorado Springs for 15 years I am of the opinion that all of Colorado Springs is a bad neighborhood.

If I could talk my wife in to leaving this town I would. Since I can't, I deal with the situation as it is.

I've quoted Tom Givens before. 66 of his students have been involved in a shooting incident.

Of the 66, three were caught unarmed and murdered. Givens says that they forfeited their gunfights by not being armed.

The lesson that I take from that is unless I'm going someplace where it is illegal for me to even have a gun in my car, I do not walk out my front door unarmed.

Of the 66, 85% of Givens' students who have been involved in a shooting incident had it occur in a transitional space (most frequently a parking lot) between the hours of 6:00 p.m. and 6:00 a.m.

I stay out of parking lots after "dark". I don't do late night trips to Walmart.

I pay attention to my surroundings but I'm a little more on edge in transitional spaces (parking lots among others).

I'm not trying to be a badass when I say this but I think it's a little bit helpful to me that I can drive around this town and almost everywhere I go I pass through some place where I had to run in with a crackhead or someone tried to attack me at work, or some type of poop hit the fan. I think it keeps me focused.

The rest of Givens' students who were involved in shootings it was either in or around their home. We practice Home Security. If I can't positively identify you I don't open the door.

There are some parts of Colorado Springs that are noticeably worse than the rest of the town. I don't go there.

I practice avoidance wherever possible.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Well it’s all about perspective.

I tend to think my perspective of a bad area is wildly different than the average bear.

For instance, to me, there are no bad areas in the city in which I live. I’m the only person I know who thinks this though. I have been a PI and process server in the past and I know all the areas and have worked in all of them. I have lived in Philadelphia and Chicago also so I have that to compare to as well.

I may be in a bad area 100% of the time I suppose to someone else.

 

[ms6852]

Well said.

 

[AlexanderA]

I agree with the OP about not going into a "bad area."

However, if you must go there, your best defense (even better than a gun) is to look like you belong there.

In the fall of 1956, my father taught for a semester at the University of Chicago. Even back then, the area had a rough reputation. My father witnessed several muggings. But they never touched him. He actually overheard one of the muggers, as he walked by, telling the victim (pointing to my father) "he's one of ours."

There's a YouTube blogger, who goes by the name of "Spanian," who's posted a series of videos walking through some of the roughest neighborhoods in Europe (and elsewhere in the world). Unbelievable open drug use, graffiti, cheap brothels, and lots of crime. Yet the criminals never bother him. The reason is that Spanian served ten years in an Australian prison, and looks the part of a criminal (neck and scalp tatoos, mannerisms, etc.). He looks frightening. (He's obviously been reformed, judging from his commentary.)

So, if you can adopt a convincing "biker" persona, you're unlikely to get mugged. The idea is to have the criminals fear you more than you fear them.

 

[CDW4ME]

I avoid "bad areas".
If one changes carry based on perceived threat, the "bad area" gun is the one that you should try to carry everywhere.
Attackers are not easier to incapacitate because you are standing in a nice spot.
The handgun(s) I carry in my "good area" don't need improvement if I go elsewhere; I'm carrying handgun(s) I'd prefer to defend myself wherever.

ETA: "good areas" are that until "bad" people take a uninvited unexpected field trip to them.

 

[theotherwaldo]

The world is a bad area.
No one gets out of it alive.
Always be prepared to defend yourself and those important to you when in a bad area.

The only safe area is the grave... .

 

[Remington1911]

I agree with the OP about not going into a "bad area."

However, if you must go there, your best defense (even better than a gun) is to look like you belong there.

In the fall of 1956, my father taught for a semester at the University of Chicago. Even back then, the area had a rough reputation. My father witnessed several muggings. But they never touched him. He actually overheard one of the muggers, as he walked by, telling the victim (pointing to my father) "he's one of ours."

There's a YouTube blogger, who goes by the name of "Spanian," who's posted a series of videos walking through some of the roughest neighborhoods in Europe (and elsewhere in the world). Unbelievable open drug use, graffiti, cheap brothels, and lots of crime. Yet the criminals never bother him. The reason is that Spanian served ten years in an Australian prison, and looks the part of a criminal (neck and scalp tatoos, mannerisms, etc.). He looks frightening. (He's obviously been reformed, judging from his commentary.)

So, if you can adopt a convincing "biker" persona, you're unlikely to get mugged. The idea is to have the criminals fear you more than you fear them.

Also look like you know what is going on around you. That does not mean a stare down, it means "noticing" what is going on around you.

On a slightly side note,

One thing that confuses me are the people that don't carry unless they go to someplace they don't feel is "safe".

You know that "bad area" may come and find you, no matter where you are.

 

[American_Fusilier]

The world is a bad area.

Very true. In reality, bad things happen even in "good" areas.

The best defense is your situational awareness. "Be aware of your surroundings" my dad would always say to me. That, and, "always leave yourself an out".

Good advice. No less applicable if you carry a gun. Keep your head on a swivel and stay vigilant.

 

[Tilos]

So, if you can adopt a convincing "biker" persona, you're unlikely to get mugged. The idea is to have the criminals fear you more than you fear them.

Biker posers are easy to spot, their clothes are clean/new, their "old ladies" are usually smoking hot, and they both have $70-$100 haircuts.

"At night" seems to be a common phrase in this thread.
People always rationalize parking lot muggings with "why was he/she shopping at night??
I'll tell you why.
Not everyone (me) works during the daytime, and I travel to and from work in the dark, when daytime good places turn into bad areas after dark!
Stopping at Walmart along the way is not unheard of, its why Walley World is open at night!
jmo,
.

 

[Old Dog]

I grew up in Detroit. My family was the last remaining white family in our neighborhood in the early '70s. Through junior high, my siblings and I were used to being a minority. My mom taught in the local public schools. My next younger brother and I were in fights in and around our school, and between our house and our schools, down at the neighborhood basketball courts where we played pickup hoops endlessly. We were in fights -- fistfights --seemingly every week. We were victims of assaults more than once by local bullies, on occasion, by multiple attackers. As my sister used to say, she wouldn't have recognized my brother or I without at least one black eye. Around the time we were transitioning to high school, the drug epidemic took off. Before it was mostly weed, there was always heroin, but coke hit the streets and things got mean. In spite of all of this, we got along, had friends (it helped that we were all good athletes and were competitive with our peers). We saw our first murder victim on our street, a teenage boy who'd been shot over five or ten bucks.

I didn't realize that I'd been living in a "bad area" until I went to live with my dad in a smaller community that was mostly white.

Everything is relative. My jobs have taken me into some bad places and even kept me working in bad places. The key (unless you have a platoon with you and CAS on call) is to fit in and know how to interact with the local inhabitants. Actually, the few times I've ever been truly worried (outside of say, Anbar province) were when, as a stupid young drunken sailor I wandered alone around places like Naples, Italy or Tijuana in the middle of the night.

My point in all this is that there appears to be a not-insignificant-number of people who assess acceptable risks based on how well they're armed rather than in terms of a comprehensive risk management approach.

I'm not entirely sure that I see a lot of that here, at least in this forum. Perhaps there have been some recent threads I've overlooked?

Is that soda REALLY worth stopping in a place you perceive to be dangerous, just because you're armed? Do you REALLY need to stop there to get gas at that time of night, or can you just go on home and get some gas tomorrow?

Yeah -- sometimes it is, and sometimes, you do. Even if you're not armed. A while back, I made a decision not to let fear of anything guide my life and my actions. Not to say I like to go to clubs in sketchy parts of town and hang out in the parking lot at 2:30 a.m. after last call, or spend time at the local watering hole of my local outlaw MC; certainly the rule of not going to stupid places in stupid areas at stupid times around stupid people doing stupid things or however the saying goes is something I try to strictly adhere to. I can't remember the last time I was out anywhere after midnight if I wasn't working. But there are some places the wife and I do go to buy things we can't get elsewhere (not drugs or hookers, guys) --some of the best ethnic markets are in some truly sketchy areas, anyone ever noticed that? And auto body shops, for some reason...

Life is not without risks.

But being armed has never been part of the equation for me with regard to where I go. I've always simply tried to be prepared for the worst (that could happen to me without me feeling the need for some heavily armed friends, a crew-served weapon or artillery support). I don't really change how I'm armed based on where I'm headed. Pretty much like @CDW4ME said in post #8.

I don't really know what I'm trying to say here. It all just seems like common sense to me. One's whole city can be a poop-hole and a "bad area." Literally (I've lived in San Francisco and Oakland). And for some reason, we just can't get the bad people to stay in the bad areas anymore, things ain't like they used to be.

 

[theotherwaldo]

Why in the world would the bad people stay in the bad places?
That's not where the money is... .

 

[crstrode]

Not everyone (me) works during the daytime, and travel to and from work in the dark.
Stopping at Walmart along the way is not unheard of, its why Walley World is open at night!
jmo,

I have worked at day-jobs most of my life. However, unbeknownst to the vast majority of folks in the US, daytime for those living in the North ends before 4:00PM and doesn't return until 8AM this time of year.

Going to work and returning home in pitch-darkness was the norm for months each year.

It was worth every minute, because working long and hard for decades built the nest egg now sustaining me and my wife.

 

[Kleanbore]

Excellent post, Chief.

 

[Tilos]

It was worth every minute, because working long and hard for decades built the nest egg now sustaining me and my wife.

Yep, I took an early retirement at 55 and could possibly spend more years in retirement than I did working...if I live long enough.


.

 

[25-5]

Prescience is a virtue.

 

[CapnMac]

And of course the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" (which is pretty common across the human spctrum, for better or for worse).

I was in a "bad area" today. Not many of my neighbors might have seen it that way, but it actually is--the Magnolia Medical District area south of downtown Fort Worth is a hotbed of police & EMS calls. All manner of expensive cars left parked for hours at a time. The sorts of eating & drinking establishments that cater to high-income medical types--and their customers/clients. Huge volumes of people only there for an hour or so, so a very anonymous sort of traffic flow to merge into. And, it all butts up against the south FW freight rail yards--so, not the most picturesque area in town, either.

I know my awareness was kicked up a notch--what often seems to surprise me is that others don't. And, yes, I'm allowing (or trying to) for the distraction of having medical issues, or the stress of getting to appointments on time.

 

[tazbigdog]

Going into a bad area by myself or with others. Tactics and mindset are different.

 

[rhino465]

Another related issue to keep in mind is that violent crime in most areas is evolving since the unpleasantness of the last few years. It's increasingly more likely to be accosted or assaulted by multiple individuals, younger (and more unpredictable) predators, and gratuitous violence or unnecessary escalation of violence are are more likely (i.e., the criminal hurting/killing for reason other than accomplishing the goal of robbery or rape or etc).

Because of that, coping strategies that many have used with good success in the past may become less effective in some situations.

 

[woodnbow]

There is a lot to address in this topic.

My Philosophy has always been a carry the largest gun I can reasonably conceal and at least one reload.

In Colorado I'm limited to 15 rounds no matter what so I carry a Glock 19.

I've said this before a bunch of times, "If I feel the need to upgrade my Armament to go anywhere then I probably don't need to go there at all."

After working Security in Colorado Springs for 15 years I am of the opinion that all of Colorado Springs is a bad neighborhood.

If I could talk my wife in to leaving this town I would. Since I can't, I deal with the situation as it is.

I've quoted Tom Givens before. 66 of his students have been involved in a shooting incident.

Of the 66, three were caught unarmed and murdered. Givens says that they forfeited their gunfights by not being armed.

The lesson that I take from that is unless I'm going someplace where it is illegal for me to even have a gun in my car, I do not walk out my front door unarmed.

Of the 66, 85% of Givens' students who have been involved in a shooting incident had it occur in a transitional space (most frequently a parking lot) between the hours of 6:00 p.m. and 6:00 a.m.

I stay out of parking lots after "dark". I don't do late night trips to Walmart.

I pay attention to my surroundings but I'm a little more on edge in transitional spaces (parking lots among others).

I'm not trying to be a badass when I say this but I think it's a little bit helpful to me that I can drive around this town and almost everywhere I go I pass through some place where I had to run in with a crackhead or someone tried to attack me at work, or some type of poop hit the fan. I think it keeps me focused.

The rest of Givens' students who were involved in shootings it was either in or around their home. We practice Home Security. If I can't positively identify you I don't open the door.

There are some parts of Colorado Springs that are noticeably worse than the rest of the town. I don't go there.

I practice avoidance wherever possible.

I passed through the Springs many years ago. Stayed off base with a friend in the neighborhood around Prospect Park. I went running in the mornings like always and everything was fine except the freaking DOGS. Packs of the bastards. My light carry back then was a P7 and I was pretty sure I was going to have to shoot a dog before I got out of town. Glad I don’t live somewhere like that And carrying while running is a pain in the ass.

 

[The Night Rider]

I passed through the Springs many years ago. Stayed off base with a friend in the neighborhood around Prospect Park. I went running in the mornings like always and everything was fine except the freaking DOGS. Packs of the bastards. My light carry back then was a P7 and I was pretty sure I was going to have to shoot a dog before I got out of town. Glad I don’t live somewhere like that And carrying while running is a pain in the ass.

Prospect Lake Is one big homeless camp now

 

[Sarge7402]

I recently ran across this phrase elsewhere in the forum and thought it was worth discussing here.

It's safe to say that the vast majority of us here are firearms enthusiasts of some sort. Duh, this is a firearms forum. Also safe to say that a significant percentage of us carry as well. And whatever our persuasion, there are opinions all over the place on a variety of subjects.

Well, here's my opinion on "If I'm going into a bad area..."

WHY ARE YOU GOING INTO A BAD AREA IN THE FIRST PLACE?


That isn't in caps because I necessarily think it's a "stupid thing to do". It's in caps because this is EXACTLY the question you should be asking yourself BEFORE going into a "bad area".

Are you going into a "bad area" because:

- It's convenient to you and you think the gun on your hip will provide for your safety?

- You live there and carrying in your response to the known/perceived dangers?

- You frequently drive through that area going to and from work and home?

- You're meeting someone whose vehicle has broken down there?


I bring this up because self-defense is MORE than just carrying a firearm. It's a holistic concept that starts with oneself and includes situational awareness, forethought, training, ability, dedication, and means. (And any number of other things one can think of.) It's NEVER "just" the means.

If you believe you have to adjust your defense posture because you intend to go into a known bad area, then a bit of additional forethought is warranted in order to assess and mitigate the risks BEFOREHAND. Such as:

- Do I REALLY need to go to that bad area?

- Would it be better if I just drove past here to the next available gas station in a better, more well lit and populated area?

- Should I maybe go to this other grocery store at this time of night?

- Can it wait until a better time?

- Can I call someone to meet me elsewhere?

- Should I have friends with me before I go?

Of course, these are not all inclusive considerations.


My point in all this is that there appears to be a not-insignificant-number of people who assess acceptable risks based on how well they're armed rather than in terms of a comprehensive risk management approach.

One's EDC is just that...one's every day carry. Your EDC isn't supposed to be a key to entry into dangerous places, a key which can be changed out to allow entry into more or less dangerous places. It's supposed to be ONE tool among many available to you with which you can defend yourself if needed. And while there are better (and worse) tools to be had, I submit if you find yourself assessing which tool to change out to based on places you perceive to be more (or less) dangerous, then maybe you're not effectively utilizing the most important tool you ALWAYS have with you: your brain.

If you GOTTA go there, you gotta go. But don't confuse "gotta go" with "like to go", "want to go", or "convenient to go".


I once related a story a brother of mine told me about having stopped at some convience store/gas station for something late one night. Part of the story was how dangerous it was and what he was carrying.

I don't remember who it was here, just that it was another THR brother whose postings tend to make people think. Paraphrasing, he asked "Why did your brother CHOOSE to stop there in the first place, knowing it to be a dangerous place?"

THAT, my friends, is thought provoking. Is that soda REALLY worth stopping in a place you perceive to be dangerous, just because you're armed? Do you REALLY need to stop there to get gas at that time of night, or can you just go on home and get some gas tomorrow?


Your firearm does NOT provide you with "safety". It provides you with a means of projecting deadly force in self-defense in the event that your safety has already gone out the window.

We do live in the USA right? And we're free to go whenever we want right! Maybe it's the bad elements that should be avoiding us

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Lots of good responses, thank you all. And I saw some words/phrases that I've seen others use as excuses. (Again, these are things that make me think about how other people perceive things.)

There is a difference between "fear" and "prudence". Similarly, there is a difference between "free to go wherever we want" and "prudence".


Anybody here remember the "slut walks"? These were organized by groups of women who were upset when a sheriff (or other LEO, I don't remember the precise details) who basically said that if you dress and act a certain part, then it shouldn't come as a surprise that you're targeted as a victim.

His not-so-politically-correct point being that while it is the fault of an attacker for committing an act of violence, it's the responsibility of the individual to consider their own safety and comport themselves accordingly.

The predictable rebellion, of course, involved scores of women who said "we should be able to dress and act any way we wish and not be attacked", whereupon they commenced with their slut walk protests. (Interestingly, they dressed and protested in relatively safe areas, of course. Go figure.)

The fact that one SHOULD be able to walk on both sides of the proverbial tracks without harm does NOT obviate the FACT that there are very real dangers out there and ignoring reality is what leads to more people being victimized than otherwise would be.

I'm not going to dress to the nines with expensive accessories and $20 bills hanging out of my pockets while taking a 2 am walk on the "wrong side of the tracks". I SHOULD be able to do this without harm...but I'm not STUPID to the facts and realities of life.


One should not be the victim of a violent attack for being stupid. But if you're going to be stupid, you're going to attract more attention from those inclined to violent attacks. And, contrary to the opinions of those who seem to think this is always someone else's fault, this is actually a natural, predator/prey relationship. Just because we're human doesn't mean we aren't still instinctively motivated/driven in the same manners as our animal cousins.

An utterly FANTASTIC example of this was demonstrated a few decades ago when I was visiting Wolf Park in Battleground, Indiana. They maintain and study wolves in as close to a natural environment as they can. In this instance, we could see a handful of wolves in the vicinity on the opposite side of the fence from our group. As our guide was explaining a lot about wolf behavior and the differences between them and dogs, she pointed out that "cute" behavior we admire in dogs is anything BUT cute in wolves and has dire consequences for those who insist on ignoring this fact.

She said (paraphrasing here) "There are a lot of young children in this group, and it's pretty certain that at some point one or more of them will start fussing and crying. When that happens, I want you to pay attention to what these wolves do. Children who behave this way will trigger a "prey" instinct in the wolves and they will start stalking those children exclusively. All eyes in the field will turn to that specific child. They may pace back and forth, never breaking eye contact. Some will approach the fence directly opposite the child, and you might think it's friendly and wants to be petted. All those behaviors are NOT that of the family dog who is concerned with a member of his own family (or pack) and is concerned with the welfare of the child. Those are predator behaviors, they have marked that child as prey, and they are stalking the child as food."

When you KNOW there are wolves around, don't go there. If you have to be there, don't act like prey. If you ignore this, then the likelihood of being a victim of a wolf attack will significantly increase. This is the natural order of things and pretending otherwise will not change this.


"If I'm going into a bad area..." what precautions are you going to take to mitigate the possibility of attack?