"If I'm going into a bad area..."

[woodnbow]

Prospect Lake Is one big homeless camp now

I could see that. Back then, (71. Looong time ago!) it was pretty bad.

 

[armoredman]

Going into a bad area by myself or with others. Tactics and mindset are different.

Thank to uncontrolled criminal immigration just south of me, AND uncontrolled immigration from California, ALL of my area is now a bad area.

 

[dobedo]

It is a heck of a lot easier not to go to or in places that are known to be bad than it is to prepare to enter dirt bag areas. However, any place at any time can be suddenly a bad area. Being aware of what is going around you and having a backup is always the best thing you can do.

 

[WestKentucky]

The sad reality is that the “bad” areas really aren’t that much worse than the “good” areas. Remember, criminals have cars too, and they drive those cars to the areas where their deeds might land them a better yield. Maybe a reconfiguration of the thought process needs to happen. Think like the criminal. If you’re a person with aspiration to rob somebody and get cash, you go to the place most likely for a person to have cash. You rob a couple people and get out of the area and away from being caught. Same if you want to rob somebody of a nice car, illegal drugs, guns, or whatever other loot you desire. So as a self defense thought process, our thought should be “how do I avoid these things?” Not which piece of artillery fits the situation best. The answer to most of these things to avoid is to not be flashy. Driving a 6 figure car draws attention. Jewelry draws attention. “Vehicle protected by Smith & Wesson” draws attention. Half dressed women draw attention. All of these attention grabbing thing draw attention because they are intended to do so. They might draw the attention of that pretty little lady you would like to get to know, but at the same time the thief is reading the cards just like she is. How do you avoid getting into a bad spot? Mind your own business, don’t be flashy, and don’t waste time putting yourself at risk.

It shouldn’t matter where you are going as to what your arm yourself with. The most important tool you have is your brain, but only if you use it right. The next is your eyes, then ears, but never ever dismiss the tingle when your hair stands up. Your eyes are seeing and your ears are hearing but your brain just hasn’t figured out what’s up yet, but instinct drives the brain and it’s interested and investigating when the little hair all stands up.

 

[wayneinFL]

I've had to work in the bad areas over the years. And there are bad areas that are a lot worse than the good areas. I've seen one robbery in my hometown in over 40 years. I saw two in less than 8 months working in New Orleans.

I act differently in the bad areas. I keep my eyes open in the good areas, and I carry. But I watch people like a hawk on the other side of the tracks. If possible I avoid people. I watch the corners of buildings, openings in fences, vegetation, anyplace someone could hide. My phone stays in my pocket most of the time. And if I don't have to have my shirt tucked in, I have a full size pistol.

 

[.455_Hunter]

It must be great to control your own schedule.

When you are still working an 8-5 professional career and raising a family, you don't always get the luxury of picking when you need to go to Walmart or make a run to the grocery store for your elderly Mom.

This thread is a great example of telling me you are retired without directly telling me you are retired.

 

[Anchorite]

I recently ran across this phrase elsewhere in the forum and thought it was worth discussing here.

It's safe to say that the vast majority of us here are firearms enthusiasts of some sort. Duh, this is a firearms forum. Also safe to say that a significant percentage of us carry as well. And whatever our persuasion, there are opinions all over the place on a variety of subjects.

Well, here's my opinion on "If I'm going into a bad area..."

WHY ARE YOU GOING INTO A BAD AREA IN THE FIRST PLACE?


That isn't in caps because I necessarily think it's a "stupid thing to do". It's in caps because this is EXACTLY the question you should be asking yourself BEFORE going into a "bad area".

Are you going into a "bad area" because:

- It's convenient to you and you think the gun on your hip will provide for your safety?

- You live there and carrying in your response to the known/perceived dangers?

- You frequently drive through that area going to and from work and home?

- You're meeting someone whose vehicle has broken down there?


I bring this up because self-defense is MORE than just carrying a firearm. It's a holistic concept that starts with oneself and includes situational awareness, forethought, training, ability, dedication, and means. (And any number of other things one can think of.) It's NEVER "just" the means.

If you believe you have to adjust your defense posture because you intend to go into a known bad area, then a bit of additional forethought is warranted in order to assess and mitigate the risks BEFOREHAND. Such as:

- Do I REALLY need to go to that bad area?

- Would it be better if I just drove past here to the next available gas station in a better, more well lit and populated area?

- Should I maybe go to this other grocery store at this time of night?

- Can it wait until a better time?

- Can I call someone to meet me elsewhere?

- Should I have friends with me before I go?

Of course, these are not all inclusive considerations.


My point in all this is that there appears to be a not-insignificant-number of people who assess acceptable risks based on how well they're armed rather than in terms of a comprehensive risk management approach.

One's EDC is just that...one's every day carry. Your EDC isn't supposed to be a key to entry into dangerous places, a key which can be changed out to allow entry into more or less dangerous places. It's supposed to be ONE tool among many available to you with which you can defend yourself if needed. And while there are better (and worse) tools to be had, I submit if you find yourself assessing which tool to change out to based on places you perceive to be more (or less) dangerous, then maybe you're not effectively utilizing the most important tool you ALWAYS have with you: your brain.

If you GOTTA go there, you gotta go. But don't confuse "gotta go" with "like to go", "want to go", or "convenient to go".


I once related a story a brother of mine told me about having stopped at some convience store/gas station for something late one night. Part of the story was how dangerous it was and what he was carrying.

I don't remember who it was here, just that it was another THR brother whose postings tend to make people think. Paraphrasing, he asked "Why did your brother CHOOSE to stop there in the first place, knowing it to be a dangerous place?"

THAT, my friends, is thought provoking. Is that soda REALLY worth stopping in a place you perceive to be dangerous, just because you're armed? Do you REALLY need to stop there to get gas at that time of night, or can you just go on home and get some gas tomorrow?


Your firearm does NOT provide you with "safety". It provides you with a means of projecting deadly force in self-defense in the event that your safety has already gone out the window.

Well thought out and succinctly stated. I read many, many posts on THR (and for years as a lurker before joining) and often think how folks are constantly lured by a false sense of confidence just because they are armed.

Thank you for posting.

 

[Anchorite]

It must be great to control your own schedule.

When you are still working an 8-5 professional career and raising a family, you don't always get the luxury of picking when you need to go to Walmart or make a run to the grocery store for your elderly Mom.

This thread is a great example of telling me you are retired without directly telling me you are retired.

You make a valid point. I’ll offer this….I am still not retired and I’ve been there…raising 3 kids and having the elderly MIL down for an extended stay, so you think about a lot of “what ifs.” I mean, what is a lot of this site all about, exactly?

A little planning and forethought goes a long way.

And while you don’t get to pick your confrontation/gunfight, you can use the 6 inches between your ears as your most effective weapon because failing to plan is planning to fail. Your carry weapon(s) of choice are but a piece of the daily puzzle that we know as life’s compromises.

 

[Anchorite]

There is a lot to address in this topic.

My Philosophy has always been a carry the largest gun I can reasonably conceal and at least one reload.

In Colorado I'm limited to 15 rounds no matter what so I carry a Glock 19.

I've said this before a bunch of times, "If I feel the need to upgrade my Armament to go anywhere then I probably don't need to go there at all."

After working Security in Colorado Springs for 15 years I am of the opinion that all of Colorado Springs is a bad neighborhood.

If I could talk my wife in to leaving this town I would. Since I can't, I deal with the situation as it is.

I've quoted Tom Givens before. 66 of his students have been involved in a shooting incident.

Of the 66, three were caught unarmed and murdered. Givens says that they forfeited their gunfights by not being armed.

The lesson that I take from that is unless I'm going someplace where it is illegal for me to even have a gun in my car, I do not walk out my front door unarmed.

Of the 66, 85% of Givens' students who have been involved in a shooting incident had it occur in a transitional space (most frequently a parking lot) between the hours of 6:00 p.m. and 6:00 a.m.

I stay out of parking lots after "dark". I don't do late night trips to Walmart.

I pay attention to my surroundings but I'm a little more on edge in transitional spaces (parking lots among others).

I'm not trying to be a badass when I say this but I think it's a little bit helpful to me that I can drive around this town and almost everywhere I go I pass through some place where I had to run in with a crackhead or someone tried to attack me at work, or some type of poop hit the fan. I think it keeps me focused.

The rest of Givens' students who were involved in shootings it was either in or around their home. We practice Home Security. If I can't positively identify you I don't open the door.

There are some parts of Colorado Springs that are noticeably worse than the rest of the town. I don't go there.

I practice avoidance wherever possible.

I like what you said and wholeheartedly agree (except I’ve never set foot in CO, but I’ll take your word for it).

Growing up I had a curfew. My parents believed nothing good happened after about 10pm. Now that I am much older, I see the were right.

 

[The Night Rider]

Growing up I had a curfew. My parents believed nothing good happened after about 10pm. Now that I am much older, I see the were right.

I used to work nights down at the city parking garage on Kiowa Street. It was right next to the Metro bus station.

There's an old cop that used to drive through that area every night and he would cruise through the parking garage looking for out-of-date tags. And I remember him saying that at around 10:00 the sewers opened up and the rats crawled out.

I don't know if I agree with that 100%, but I do know that around 10:00 the productive citizens all go home and you're kind of surrounded by crackheads by default.

 

[The Night Rider]

When you are still working an 8-5 professional career and raising a family, you don't always get the luxury of picking when you need to go to Walmart or make a run to the grocery store for your elderly Mom.

Prior Planning Prevents P*** Poor Performance.

All it takes is a little bit of commitment to paying attention.

I can't think of a single thing that I need to get from Walmart (specifically) that's so critical that I can't wait for tomorrow to get it.

What are you running off to Walmart to get at 10:00 at night that's so critical that you can't wait for tomorrow to get it?

Add to that the fact that Walmart delivers

 

[Anchorite]

Prior Planning Prevents P*** Poor Performance.

All it takes is a little bit of commitment to paying attention.

I can't think of a single thing that I need to get from Walmart (specifically) that's so critical that I can't wait for tomorrow to get it.

What are you running off to Walmart to get at 10:00 at night that's so critical that you can't wait for tomorrow to get it?

Add to that the fact that Walmart delivers

My thoughts exactly.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Prior Planning Prevents P*** Poor Performance.

All it takes is a little bit of commitment to paying attention.

I can't think of a single thing that I need to get from Walmart (specifically) that's so critical that I can't wait for tomorrow to get it.

What are you running off to Walmart to get at 10:00 at night that's so critical that you can't wait for tomorrow to get it?

Add to that the fact that Walmart delivers

Never has a post proven EXACTLY what I was stating. QED.

 

[film495]

I've tried to have this conversation with people who've told me they drove through the local area cities and drove through Israel/Palestine protests. I'm like - you on purpose drove through?, and you could have easily just turned around, but you chose to drive through this? on purpose?

 

[The Night Rider]

Never has a post proven EXACTLY what I was stating. QED.

Again, what are you getting from Walmart that's so critical that you have to run off at 10:00 at night to get it?

And yes I will directly tell you that I'm retired but I didn't do that when I wasn't retired.

To be fair though, most of my work life I worked third shift and if we needed something from Walmart I would get it in the morning on my way home.

Having said that I'm going to reiterate that all it takes is a little bit of organization.

 

[epags]

I am in total agreement with the OP. If you don't have to , Don't.
Happily, my family and I have been blessed to be able to live in 'non-bad-areas'. However, at one point of our lives, my spouse had a remodeling project in a part of New Haven, CT where folks, for fun and giggles, would shoot out the windows of her project after dark. One day she called to say she had to stay late to finish a phase of the project.....that was the one time I puposely drove into the area, armed, to escort her out.
After that, any time I had to drive anywhere in New Haven, I was alway carrying. Yes, the city was 98% safe but.....

 

[.455_Hunter]

Again, what are you getting from Walmart that's so critical that you have to run off at 10:00 at night to get it?

And yes I will directly tell you that I'm retired but I didn't do that when I wasn't retired.

To be fair though, most of my work life I worked third shift and if we needed something from Walmart I would get it in the morning on my way home.

Having said that I'm going to reiterate that all it takes is a little bit of organization.

Right, so your perspective on the CURRENT life requirements of somebody working 8-5 with the responsibilities of a spouse, kids and caring for elderly parents is very limited.

The "know-it-all" peanut gallery on this forum can get tiresome at times. It's seems to be very prevalent with Legal, S&T and personal defensive firearm choice discussions.

 

[The Night Rider]

Right, so your perspective on the CURRENT life requirements of somebody working 8-5 with the responsibilities of a spouse, kids and caring for elderly parents is very limited.

The "know-it-all" peanut gallery on this forum can get tiresome at times. It's seems to be very prevalent with Legal, S&T and personal defensive firearm choice discussions.

I asked you a pretty specific question and you keep ducking it.

Again, what are you getting from Walmart that's so critical that you have to run off at 10:00 at night to get it?

To put it another way Again, what are you getting from Walmart that's so critical that you're willing to accept an increased risk of a criminal encounter to get it?

 

[.455_Hunter]

I asked you a pretty specific question and you keep ducking it.

Again, what are you getting from Walmart that's so critical that you have to run off at 10:00 at night to get it?

To put it another way Again, what are you getting from Walmart that's so critical that you're willing to accept an increased risk of a criminal encounter to get it?

Items that I feel are necessary, which is all that needs to be justified.

I think some people should never leave their house if they that fearful. I refuse to let the boogyman dictate how I schedule my life, and the arrival of darkness need not automatically be some sort of witching hour for a prepared citizen who is lawfully patronizing businesses.

 

[crstrode]

I asked you a pretty specific question and you keep ducking it.

Again, what are you getting from Walmart that's so critical that you have to run off at 10:00 at night to get it?

To put it another way Again, what are you getting from Walmart that's so critical that you're willing to accept an increased risk of a criminal encounter to get it?

Night Rider, you have the correct perspective, however, there are many that do not, cannot, or will not, consider the value in a perspective different from their own. That sort of logical thinking does, indeed, require a bit of sober organization . . .

 

[Kleanbore]

WHY ARE YOU GOING INTO A BAD AREA IN THE FIRST PLACE?...That isn't in caps because I necessarily think it's a "stupid thing to do". It's in caps because this is EXACTLY the question you should be asking yourself BEFORE going into a "bad area".

The answer may be very obvious. You may work there. You may have family who work there.

Let's discuss what a "bad area" may be.

To some, it may be an area with a lot of abandoned buildings with homeless people, or maybe a high unemployment rate. To others, it is defined by crime rate

Some decades ago, the French government issued an advisory for French citizens traveling to the St. Louis, Missouri area. They advised staying out of an area that included the northern half of the City of St. Louis, and extended northward and westward in a wide arc that went out to St. Louis International Airport--"Lambert Field". That was a pretty good call.

I worked on the edge of the airport. The question of why I was going there every day was a no brainer. I had to. Many others were, and are now, in the same situation.

Within the French government's "do not go there" map lies the city of Ferguson, MO. This was before the shooting of young Michael Brown and "protests" that followed, and thngs are npw a lot worse. We know someone who sold his house in that area at grat financial loss. Before he sold it, but after he had moved out, he went back to cut the grass. He saw that his air conditioner had been taken. When he entered his garage to get the mower, he was ambushed by a man inside and injured by an attack with a shovel. His car was taken.

Bad areas are not defined by crime rate. We have family who reside in the City of St. Louis, in one of the few remaining areas that are considered safe. But the entire jurisdiction is plagued by the effects of an understaffed police force, extremely slow response to 911 calls, a policy of not responding to any calls that do not involve immediate threat of serious violence, and a judicial enforcement polcy that, though improving,, seems not to deter crime at all. Stolen cars travel at over 100 and run stop signs. A gun is no defense. To me, the whole city is a "bad area".

I know long-time baseball fans who no longer attend Cardinal games. I am retired, and I can stay out of the city. But my neighbor works at the AB-Inbev brewery. He has to go there Another neighbor works at the Government GeoSpacial center, wwich is about to move from one dangerous location to another in the city. He has to go there.
huge complex. The doctors, technicians, nurses, and other staff have to go there, day and night.

We can say "don't go there", and for those who need not go there, that's good advice. But as .455_Hunter has pointed out, that advice is useless for those who cannot follow it.

 

[The Night Rider]

Items that I feel are necessary, which is all that needs to be justified.

I think some people should never leave their house if they that fearful. I refuse to let the boogyman dictate how I schedule my life, and the arrival of darkness need not automatically be some sort of witching hour for a prepared citizen who is lawfully patronizing businesses.

1. The reality is that all of us are at pretty low risk.

2. Having said that, don't sit there

When you are still working an 8-5 professional career and raising a family, you don't always get the luxury of picking when you need* to go to Walmart or make a run to the grocery store for your elderly Mom.

*Require (something) because it is essential or very important.

And try to tell me that it's required or essential for you to make a late night trip to Walmart when you're just doing it for convenience or to make a statement that "You ain't afraid of no ghosts."

I'm sorry (not really) that you're offended that my life circumstances don't "require" me to be out after "dark".

I kind of don't care if this bothers you or not but I'm usually done with everything I have to do outside of my house by 2:00 in the afternoon. I try to set it up that way. It's a great feeling. Even retired it's a wonderful feeling to know that I'm done with everything I have to get done today.

Even if you remove the self-defense component from this entirely, I go out of my way to structure my life in such a way that I don't get caught short. I don't run out of things unexpectedly. My life doesn't require Late Night Trips (really anywhere) to Walmart. I'm pretty sure my life would run that way if I lived in Dubois Wyoming (population 971).

But I work nights for a long time and I've seen what kind of people hang out at Walmart after Dark. I'm pretty sure I've had more run-ins with them than you have. If I was "afraid of the boogeyman" I wouldn't be have been working as a security guard after dark for 15 years.

There's quite a difference between not being afraid and not being stupid*.

* having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Every area is a bad area when there is a bad guy present.

I don't have any problem with "bad areas," only bad situations.

Of course, I have lived in several areas that were considered bad areas by the hoity toity. Can't say I had any more problems there than in better areas.

I will close with the cry of the ill prepared (many of whom are gun owners), "But we live/work/were in good area..."

 

[crstrode]

Every area is a bad area when there is a bad guy present.

I don't have any problem with "bad areas," only bad situations.

Of course, I have lived in several areas that were considered bad areas by the hoity toity. Can't say I had any more problems there than in better areas.

I will close with the cry of the ill prepared (many of whom are gun owners), "But we live/work/were in good area..."

When I was in college and very very poor, I lived only in "bad areas". To me they were good - good and cheap.

In those places and days, the only items we ran out of, and needed right away, were alcoholic beverages. The bars closed at 1:00 AM but Circle K was open 24-7.

Aside from being poor, were were all stupid, fearless, and oblivious.

 

[wayneinFL]

Prior Planning Prevents P*** Poor Performance.

All it takes is a little bit of commitment to paying attention.

I can't think of a single thing that I need to get from Walmart (specifically) that's so critical that I can't wait for tomorrow to get it.

What are you running off to Walmart to get at 10:00 at night that's so critical that you can't wait for tomorrow to get it?

Add to that the fact that Walmart delivers

I plan pretty well. Other people in my circle are more human. I've surrounded myself with enough humans that stuff happens beyond my control. Wife's been up day and night with a newborn and now the 5 year old has a 103 degree fever and she can't find the children's ibuprofen. Or the old man calls at 1AM needing help. Plenty of reasons to leave the house at night.

Not every midnight trip is a craving for ice cream.