WestKentucky
Member
TN has just recently started the Real ID thing... or at least they only recently started talking about it. I need to get mine updated so that I can fly.
Remarks weren’t intended to reflect that, sorry for the confusion.There is no Federal requirement to register gun owners and if you have a red star on a DL. it has nothing to do with firearms.
A utility bill can only be used as proof of residency if the utility company is government-run.
Did you read post #15 where I quoted the ATF directly? Lots of things are regulated by the government. But the ATF specifically requires all proofs of residency to be government issued.Wrong.
No, it is legal. No Federal law says a state must only use a residence address on a drivers license.You’re right, it’s not. The ATF says you can’t use a PO box as your residence. That makes sense because it’s hard to live in a PO box .
I agree 100%. I was unclear in that post: I never meant to imply that you can’t have a PO Box on your license, only that you can’t use that PO Box as your residence on the 4473.No, it is legal. No Federal law says a state must only use a residence address on a drivers license.
In Texas, it is quite common for judges, DA's and other LE to have their drivers license show the courthouse address.
That means........the buyer still has to put his current residence address on the 4473, but must provide additional government issued documentation that shows his name and that current residence address.
Wrong?Wrong. Utilities are government regulated. And utilities send you a bill. It ties back to if you get your mail at an in-state residence, it is a tie to the state. By a residency standpoint. It is why I was able to use my wireless phone bill sent to an in state address to buy firearms. I had other documents but the bill helped.
Did you read post #15 where I quoted the ATF directly? Lots of things are regulated by the government. But the ATF specifically requires all proofs of residency to be government issued.
None of what you linked in your post has anything do with what I’m talking about, and the part you bolded is a different issue dealing with aliens purchasing firearms.I did. There are also regulations past page 2 on the ATF 4473 that give FFL instructions on what qualifies as documentation for an in state sale with an out of state ID.
None of what you linked in your post has anything do with what I’m talking about, and the part you bolded is a different issue dealing with aliens purchasing firearms.
I’ve provided direct instructions from the 4473 saying that if your drivers license doesn’t have your current address on it, you need to provide a government-issued document showing your current address. How is a bill from a private utility company a “government-issued document”?
What exactly are you talking about here? This has nothing to do with people buying guns across state lines. This simply has to do with people who no longer live at the address listed on their photo ID. They could have moved 5 states away or just down the block.So in your mind the residency requirement that allows aliens to buy firearms from a foreign country here doesn't apply to citizens across state lines? Makes no sense at all.
OK, you’re not making any sense to me at all. So then why would the 4473 say that your proof of residence has to be government-issued?A utility bill is not a government issued document. That is the whole point.
What exactly are you talking about here? This has nothing to do with people buying guns across state lines. This simply has to do with people who no longer live at the address listed on their photo ID. They could have moved 5 states away or just down the block.
So then why would the 4473 say that your proof of residence has to be government-issued?
Horsehocky.herrwalther said: ↑
A utility bill is not a government issued document. That is the whole point.
Ever stop to think that dealer violated ATF regs?......'cause he did.......the anecdote story was one I did. ID (non driver) said NY, attending school in VT. School ID, wireless phone bill (showing a VT school address) and a few other documents I cannot remember allowed me to buy firearms in VT as a semi-permanent VT resident. There wasn't a single government issued document I provided to the FFL that had my VT address. Because of resident exemptions.
No, it has to be government-issued. The ATF specifically says on the 4473 that proof of residence documents must be government-issued. What part of “government-issued” do you not understand?This entire thread is about proof of residency. And yes that can be moving into the house next door or across the country. Walk into a gun store with a drivers license, if the address isn't correct they will probably not sell you the firearm. However, exemptions exists. With non government issued documents, ie utilities. Which has been my point from the beginning.
Your dealer broke the rules. He was only supposed to allow government-issued proof of residency documents. Like it says right on the instructions on 4473, which too many dealers don’t read, apparently.Earlier the anecdote story was one I did. ID (non driver) said NY, attending school in VT. School ID, wireless phone bill (showing a VT school address) and a few other documents I cannot remember allowed me to buy firearms in VT as a semi-permanent VT resident. There wasn't a single government issued document I provided to the FFL that had my VT address. Because of resident exemptions.
No, it has to be government-issued. The ATF specifically says on the 4473 that proof of residence documents must be government issued. What part of “government-issued” do you not understand?
Your dealer broke the rules. He was only supposed to allow government-issued proof of residency documents. Like it says right on the 4473.
”Residency exemption”? There’s no such thing. It appears you once had a dealer screw up and break the rules in your favor, and now you’re trying to justify it. None of what you posted has anything to do with what we’re talking about; we’re talking about the requirement to provide an extra government-issued proof of residency in the case where your photo ID has an old address on it. I don’t mean this to sound like an insult, but you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. I’ve worked at three different FFLs, managing two of them. I’ve been through 4 different ATF IOI inspections. And @dogtown tom is an actual FFL holder, and he knows more about this than I do. But you don’t need to have our experience and knowledge, all you need to do is read the instructions on the 4473, instructions you seem determined to completely disregard. I’ll post those instructions from the 4473 again, because you keep pretending they don’t exist:No it doesn't. I have shown multiple letters of residency exemptions from the ATF.
The ATF itself says he’s doing his business wrong, and they say it right on the back of the 4473, a document he handles every single time he transfers a firearm. Maybe he just hasn’t read it in a while.The VT dealer I purchased firearms from has been in business since the Korean war. But I will certainly tell them they do business wrong because someone on the internet said so. This back and forth is concluded.
No, you posted a twenty odd year old temporary letter from ATF that isn't valid.No it doesn't. I have shown multiple letters of residency exemptions from the ATF.
Sooo.......Lets assume he was 21 years old when he started his gun business. Being the Korean War pretty much stalemated in 1953 that means he's been in business for sixty seven years..........which makes him at least age 87? Yeah. But all that means exactly jack squat to compliance with the Gun Control Act of 1968.The VT dealer I purchased firearms from has been in business since the Korean war. But I will certainly tell them they do business wrong because someone on the internet said so. This back and forth is concluded.
You need to read the ATF Ruling above. What you wrote above has no bearing on what is your current residence address and yoour state of residence for the purposes of acquiring firearms under federal law.I have multiple vehicles. one is kept permanently in one state and never leaves. Since i have a cabin there. The vehicle is registered in that state using the address of my cabin in that state. my DL and and my LTC are for my current state of Texas which is my true permanent address. I also have utility bills for the cabin.
I have purchased firearms from that other state as a resident using my passport/passport card as photo identification and the vehicle registration, property deed, and utility bills to show residence.
So what is needed to prove residence varies from state to state. When you own multiple properties in more then one state, it begins to become a gray area.
We all want to say one only has one residence, but in reality you can have more then one residence even though the law may want to force you into only having one.
When was this?I bought many firearms when I was out of my home state attending college. Student ID was one form of in state ID. I also had a cell phone bill that was delivered to the campus. I didn't get a driver's license or car for years after. When I bought my very first firearm, I walked to the gun store from my girlfriend's house. Still have that first handgun. The girl is long gone.
You need to read the ATF Ruling above. What you wrote above has no bearing on what is your current residence address and yoour state of residence for the purposes of acquiring firearms under federal law.
- Federal law requires you to write your current residence address, not your "true permanent address" which is meaningless in regards to acquiring firearms.
- "what is needed to prove residence varies from state to state"......no, it doesn't. Again, read that ATF Ruling and the instructions on the Form 4473.
- "when you own multiple properties in more than....."........again, meaningless. Ownership of property is not a requirement.
ATF's interpretation of "State of Residence" is more liberal than Barack Obama.......you just have to LIVE IN THAT STATE. You provide proof by showing certain government issued documents. What a particular state requires for paying taxes, voting, etc has no bearing on the requirements of federal law.
Well sure they may. States may be more restrictive than Federal law and some states may allow cities and counties to be more restrictive than state law.I was under the impression that some states have additional requirements ver and beyond the federal requirement. Such as Illinois requires people to have a FOID card.
Correct.I am not a resident of Illinois, so I can’t get a Illinois FOID. However, if I bought a cabin there, or maybe even rented a cabin or apartment, then it’s very possible I could obtain an Illinois FOID card because I could claim that’s my residence. I would have utility bills, a deed, property tax forms, maybe even n a vehicle registration. All forms showing an Illinois address. Even when the fact is it would only be a recreation property. No different then the property I own in Utah. I wouldn’t be “living in Illinois” except for the time I would be at the property.
Of course, says so right in the ATF Ruling.It is true you don’t have to own property, or have a vehicle, or even have a drivers license. However, you have to show some proof of legal residence. The documents needed to prove this in some ways indirectly require something such as leasing a residence, or owning one.
True.If your living with someone, no DL, don’t own a car, and don’t have any utilities in your name, providing proof could be more difficult. In Texas with someone like this, Texas would require a notarized signed affidavit from someone living there, with proof that they live there, saying that the other person lives there. All just to get a Texas ID card.
It's required you provide government issued documentation showing your name and current residence address if you Gov issued photo ID does not.So while none of that is required, in a way it is to get the documents you need to show who you are and proof of residence.