iran war

Status
Not open for further replies.
Let's see .....
1. Iran is ruled by a madman
2. Iran is developing WMD's
3. Iran is ignoring UN directives
4. Iran supports terrorism
5. Itan poses a danger.

Where have I heard that before? Washington DC 2003?

Anyway, this time we should stand aside. Let the powerful and morally superior European Union handle Iran. Time for the French Army to get into a fight.
 
The Europeans and our good friend in Russia is handling it. They are selling parts for reactors and centrifuges, and missiles to Iran.

I think we should reciprocate and help the Chechnyians and the Georgians and the Ukrainians by selling them the exact same stuff Vladiie baby is selling Iran.

Im sure Mr. Putin would be real happy if we sold his enemies lots of Missiles capable of shooting down russian aircraft, adn capable of hitting Moscow.
Then we can sell them a nuclear reactor or two also.:evil:
 
After giving the Iranian situation more serious thought, I suggest we just start bombing their nuke facilities and see what happens.

999
 
Master Blaster said:
The Europeans and our good friend in Russia is handling it. They are selling parts for reactors and centrifuges, and missiles to Iran.

I think we should reciprocate and help the Chechnyians and the Georgians and the Ukrainians by selling them the exact same stuff Vladiie baby is selling Iran.

Im sure Mr. Putin would be real happy if we sold Missiles capable of shooting down russian aircraft his enemies lots of, adn capable of hitting Moscow.
Then we can sell them a nuclear reactor or two also.:evil:

To be fair, 'the west' did sort of give a very large chunk of the USSR's nuclear force to the Ukraine. We had to pick a side, and we did so. And they probably still hold a slight grudge against the CIA for giving 'Missiles capable of shooting down russian aircraft' already once before. But such is international politics, anyone who doubts it's a sleazy trecharous business is at odds with reality.

To be even more specific, the centrifuges and much else is probably based on designs provided by Pakistan or others, and the (Associated Press iirc) blew a news story a few years ago that most of the technical documents were available for the right price, on the black market, in convenient digital format.

Then, to be completely honest, if you step back and use game-theory, pretend both Russia and the USA had a pawn in the cold war. Russia had Iran, and USA had Israel. It's more complicated, but this is just a game. USA already armed their pawn with nuclear weapons years ago, they won the game. The first side with nukes can threaten massive retaliation. And they can prevent any other regional power from developing their own.

So the game is over? Maybe. But... What if Iran is claiming to be Developing nukes, which could be true, but simultaneously they also have been Aquiring nukes. Like a magician, everyone watches the hand making obvious gestures.

If Iran's leader is crazy, then that's that. If he's not crazy, then he has a plan. Clearly he could have appeased the world by simply acting humble and meagre, claiming he was a peace-loving man etc etc. But he didn't he has made sure the world knows the opposite.

Everyone here KNOWS that Israel will attack Iran's nuclear facilities if they become operational. This is a problem. If it's true, then Iran has an advantage of knowledge of the enemy's actions. If Iran ever wanted to use a nuclear weapon against Israel the best time for it to be defensible is when they are attacked without provocation by Israel. Then, if they have a secret stockpile of nuclear warhead-laden missiles, they will launch them, and let the rest be in the hands of Allah.
 
Joejojoba111 said:
To be fair, 'the west' did sort of give a very large chunk of the USSR's nuclear force to the Ukraine. We had to pick a side, and we did so. And they probably still hold a slight grudge against the CIA for giving 'Missiles capable of shooting down russian aircraft' already once before. But such is international politics, anyone who doubts it's a sleazy trecharous business is at odds with reality.

To be even more specific, the centrifuges and much else is probably based on designs provided by Pakistan or others, and the (Associated Press iirc) blew a news story a few years ago that most of the technical documents were available for the right price, on the black market, in convenient digital format.

Then, to be completely honest, if you step back and use game-theory, pretend both Russia and the USA had a pawn in the cold war. Russia had Iran, and USA had Israel. It's more complicated, but this is just a game. USA already armed their pawn with nuclear weapons years ago, they won the game. The first side with nukes can threaten massive retaliation. And they can prevent any other regional power from developing their own.

So the game is over? Maybe. But... What if Iran is claiming to be Developing nukes, which could be true, but simultaneously they also have been Aquiring nukes. Like a magician, everyone watches the hand making obvious gestures.

If Iran's leader is crazy, then that's that. If he's not crazy, then he has a plan. Clearly he could have appeased the world by simply acting humble and meagre, claiming he was a peace-loving man etc etc. But he didn't he has made sure the world knows the opposite.

Everyone here KNOWS that Israel will attack Iran's nuclear facilities if they become operational. This is a problem. If it's true, then Iran has an advantage of knowledge of the enemy's actions. If Iran ever wanted to use a nuclear weapon against Israel the best time for it to be defensible is when they are attacked without provocation by Israel. Then, if they have a secret stockpile of nuclear warhead-laden missiles, they will launch them, and let the rest be in the hands of Allah.

Interesting take, Joejo...There's *always* much more than meets the eye in this particular chess match.
Biker
 
Then and only then, any country that poses a security threat to us or our trading partners will be dealt with militarily, after diplomatic efforts have been exhausted. That military consequence will be devastating and delivered solely by air power; no 'occupying' forces. That is the stick.
.

Wow, you are a true military stategist :rolleyes:

No war can be one on simply air power, occupation is necessary to secure and completely demoralize the enemy. The biggest mistake in your plan is that you assume that everyone else in the world thinks like Westerners, the problem is that they don't. People of the Middle East will only understand that they are completely defeated when they are in fact undeniably humilitated by their aggressor.

Example: Our lack of reaction from the U.S.S. Cole and Kenya embassy bombings was perseived as cowardly to Al queda. Using soley air power is considered weak and true victory cannot be achieved, in short your plan won't work in dealing with actually dealing with the Middle East.

No offense but isolationalism is pretty stupid and short sighted. The fact of the matter is that you (a nation) cannot remain powerful OR wealthy when they are uninvolved with international affairs. The proofs in the pudding, look at the way France, Britian, and the rest of Europe dealt with Germany before and during WWII. They didn't do anything until it was already too late and they would have been defeated if the US and Russia waited to get involved.

In fact, the whole reason the US is the superpower today is BECAUSE of WWII! What do you think the world would look like if Germany and Japan were left unimpossed for a few more years? We would be speaking German ;)
 
Waitone said:
While the Russkies develop supercaviating torpedoes we develop supercavitating ground penetrators. If the physics is similar which do you think would be easier to engineer?

The thing is, we haven't any defense against them. Really, if we got into any kind of scuffle with China over Taiwan or the like, it could be the first time since WWII that we lose capital ships in combat, as in "carrier sunk". :eek:

And we can only hope that Iran doesn't have some, or likewise...
 
Domino said:
.

No war can be one on simply air power, occupation is necessary to secure and completely demoralize the enemy.

You'd think they'd learn by now that if you break the infrastructure with air power and don't follow up with occupation AND infrastructure rebuilding, all you've done is open the field for a charismatic despot to get the population behind them in a rise to power.
 
If there is a war with Iran I predict that it will be a Charlie Foxtrot of biblical proportions.

  • Our military is already over-committed
  • Iraq had twelve years of harsh economic sanctions - not much military equipment or infrastructure. Iran has cash and hasn't been afraid to use it.
  • Most Iraqis don't like us but weren't much motivated to resist. Iran is a different kettle of fish.
  • So far the Shi'a in Iraq have been willing to go along. They've gotten what they want. If we go to war with Iran that will change. Lordy will it change. If you thought the insurgency was fun now...
  • "Disarming" Saddam Hussein was easy. He didn't have any WMDs. "Disarming" Iran will be harder.
  • Our low-cost pays-for-itself war in Iraq has been anything but. I can't imagine how much gold we'll spill on this one.
  • Occupy Iran? I don't even want to think of the logistics and problems. The resistance will be bloody and protracted.
 
There may be far more to this particular chess game then meets the eye.
But first, a few facts.

Last year, Asia consumed more oil then North America. Venezuela is America's fourth largest oil supplier. China already imports a third of its oil from other countries, and is still needs far more to expand at the rate it wants too. Iran is China's largest oil supplier. Iran signed in October 2004 a $100 billion, twenty-five-year contract with the China National Petrochemical Corporation (Sinopec) (state owned naturally) for the joint production and export of liquefied natural gas (LNG), much of which will ultimately go to China. Iran is the fourth largest world producer of oil, and sits atop the second largest reserve of natural gas.

India is not our friend. Despite having a democratic election system, the continually elect communist leaders. They are bitter because we supported Pakistan in the 80's, and Pakistan is still to some extent our friend. India just signed a 40 billion dollar long term deal with Iran for oil and natural gas, which to them was necessary considering they themselves produce almost no oil/gas. They also just recieved a 20 percent share in the development of a key Iranian oil field.

As you can see China and India, the world's most populous nations http://www.gesource.ac.uk/worldguide/guide_nations.html both have serious, nation breaking long term investments in Iran.

Which brings to mind a question. What would happen in the case of overt, declared war on Iran by the US? China currently has 20 DF-5 ICBM 5 megaton missiles in its inventory, all capable of reaching the west coast. They have about 80 nuclear weapons total. As of 1998, China was included in SIOP (since renamed OPLAN 8044), our nuclear operational plan.

Overt warfare is not a likely option IMO, due to mutually assured destruction. Unless our government has a true long term strategic plan which does not include the cabal of China, India and Iran in it. Which means first strikes on China at the least. India also posseses nuclear weapons, but how willing they are to use them is in question. But lets say the US has a different plan in mind.

In which case covert warfare will prevail, harkening back to the days of CIA funded and advised coups. The Coalition for Democracy in Iran was formed in 2001 to mobilize the efforts of a variety of groups and individuals across the United States supporting the aspirations of the Iranian people for freedom, democracy and respect for human rights in Iran. The CDI strongly supports President Bush's designation of Iran as part of the deadly "axis of evil." Michael Ledeen [of the American Enterprise Institute], Morris Amitay [a former director of the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee, or AIPAC], and James Woolsley [former CIA director] formed the Coalition for Democracy in Iran, which has strong ties to the exiled Reza Pahlavi, the deceased shah's son.

Senator Sam Brownback (known as Mr. Iran by some) in 20 May 2003 introduced the Iran Democracy Act, asking for $50 million to fund opposition groups dedicated to the overthrow of the Islamic regime. The Iran Democracy Act would provide funds for pro-democracy broadcasting into Iran, would reform radio Farda to make it more effective, and would state that it is the policy of the United States to support transparent, full democracy in Iran; to support an internationally-monitored referendum in Iran by which the Iranian people can peacefully change the system of government in Iran. I don't know if it was passed or not.

On February 12 2004, the Senate passed an important resolution, S. Res. 304, that was submitted that same day by Senator Brownback. Denouncing the elections as harmful for true democratic forces in Iran, the resolution stated that the policy of the United States should be to advocate a democratic government in Iran that will restore freedom to the people of Iran, abandon terrorism, protect human rights, and live in peace and security with the international community.

O May 06 2004 the House passed H.CON.RES.398, which was introduced by HIRC Chairman Henry Hyde (R-IL) on March 25. It expresses “the concern of Congress over Iran’s development of the means to produce nuclear weapons,” and was passed under “suspension of the rules” on 06 May 2004. The final tally was 376 for the resolution, three against, 14 answering “present,” and 40 not voting. Opponents of this concurrent resolution charged that it led the country down the road to war against Iran. This resolution demands that Iran immediately cease all efforts to acquire nuclear enrichment activities and calls for the country to honor its stated commitments to grant IAEA inspectors unrestricted access to nuclear sites. But the resolution also calls upon all state parties to the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty--including the United States--to use ``all appropriate means to deter, dissuade, and prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons.'' It also "calls on the President to use all appropriate means to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons..." Even if this bill doesn't authorize the use of force against Iran, it creates a precedent for future escalation, as did similar legislation endorsing ``regime change'' in Iraq back in 1998. This legislation called for yet more and stricter sanctions on Iran , including a demand that other countries also impose sanctions on Iran. Critics charged that sanctions were unmistakably a move toward war, particularly when, as in this legislation, a demand is made that the other nations of the world similarly isolate and blockade the country.

Bush has refused to rule out the use of force against Iran, Iran's defense minister has said that they will launch preemptive strikes if they feel their nuclear program is at risk. Iran's prime minister said in his election speech that their nuclear program will not be stopped by words. The CIA estimated in mid 2003 that Iran was 2-3 years away from developing a nuclear bomb.

Just ten minutes ago Fox News Channel had a little ticker tape thing that read "can the US leave enough troops in Iraq and still invade Iran?"

Sources: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iran-timeline.htm
http://www.nukestrat.com/china/indexchina.htm
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/icbm/df-5.htm
 
One more thing... I see perhaps a few other options, one being a strike, possibly utilizing tactical nukes, possibly by multiple US allies, against Iran's nuclear program. In which case Iran might get the idea to invade Iraq or Afghanistan, which in turn could possibly lead to us using tactical nukes against troop formations. Or Iran could mobilize their Revolutionary Guard (which initially trained Hezbollah, Al-queda and I believe the Taliban though I'm not positive on that) and trickle them in through the borders, fighting a guerilla style war against our troops. Or they could sit back and take it.

Its really hard to formulate theoretical scenarios when the game involves this many players, so much secrecy and such varied and high stakes. And the fact that fickle minds could decide the fate of nations.
 
Great post, Ghost Squire. I knew that China and Iran were in bed together, but I din't know that they were having a threesome with India.
One glaring problem is, whatever Israel does, we'll likely publicly back them if not actively participate. Either way, there will be hell to pay from the rest of the Islamic world for the USA.
In answer to the Fox poll....No.
Biker
 
Know your enemy.

Iran used children as young as twelve years old, tied together in groups, to lead human wave attacks across minefields in the Iraq/Iran war.

Iran today will be willing to go that far - and further - against US forces.
 
Krikee! I just got around to reading the article posted by Waitone. If this had happened during a different administration, I would have written it off as science fiction. Charlie Foxtrot indeed.
 
Human Waves of Children

When I read about the description of using Children to clear minefields, I just knew it HAD to be a pile of unsubstantiated rumors. Turns out it may not be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War#Human_Wave_Attacks_in_the_Iran-Iraq_War

It is apparently largely invisible. I can only find two references to the origins of this story. First, there is the anonymous eastern european reporter, then there is a reporter with a history of fabrication.

If there is real evidence, I would love to see it. Until then I remain Skeptical:scrutiny:.
 
Looking at this scenario, I see a couple of things....

Israel will not allow Iran to have Nukes.
The American reaction depends totally on what happens with Israel.
The next US administration is an unknown.
The answer to one nuke is two.
Americans are not going to approve of invading another ME country without extreme provocation.
The China/America trading partnership has increased by 1000% in the past 20 years.
The press will be on the side of the Iranians.
The Mullahs control Iran in spite of the fact the majority of their population is young and not actively anti-American.
The Arab street is fickle and mostly bluster.

I see a couple of questions...

Is Iran mature enough to treat with as we did the Soviets?
What government will come to power in Israel now that Sharon is gone?
What do China and India think is better...Iran holding their energy needs at will, or the relatively short interruption a war would bring?

A couple of things aren’t really important….

Europe
The UN

I personally don’t think that there is much middle ground. They’ll deal (for something) or they’ll pull the trigger. Continuing a low-grade confrontation ain’t going to stop the ME from changing around them.

If the former, we’ll see spotty Iranian aggravations for decades, if the latter…Iran will not survive.
 
No war can be one on simply air power, occupation is necessary to secure and completely demoralize the enemy.
The purpose is not to 'win' the 'war'. The purpose is to deprive the aggressor of the means of aggression, by killing his troops and destroying his equipment. That can easily be accomplished with air power; no need for 'occupying troops'.
The biggest mistake in your plan is that you assume that everyone else in the world thinks like Westerners, the problem is that they don't. People of the Middle East will only understand that they are completely defeated when they are in fact undeniably humilitated by their aggressor.
It doesn't matter how they 'think'. After their troops are killed and their war machines destroyed, they no longer have the ability to attack their neighbors. Game over.
No offense but isolationalism is pretty stupid and short sighted. The fact of the matter is that you (a nation) cannot remain powerful OR wealthy when they are uninvolved with international affairs.
Engaging in international trade is hardly isolationism; economic benefits accrue to both buyer and seller. Military involvement OTOH simply weakens all participants and should be used as a last and short term resort.
In fact, the whole reason the US is the superpower today is BECAUSE of WWII! What do you think the world would look like if Germany and Japan were left unimpossed for a few more years? We would be speaking German
And that's exactly the point. If Germany had been attacked and decimated as soon as it invaded Poland for example, WWII would never have happened, would it? ;)
 
I've talked this over with my cousin a bunch of times and he thinks the festivities in Iran will begin in march.


Be prepared gentlemen be very prepared.
 
I wonder how far America will go to win a war against Iran.

My guess would be just a big show of force at the beginning and then a long drawn out trickle of smaller engagements so that we don't:
1. destroy too many resources we will later need
2. kill too many civilians
3. upset the rest of the world

If it was a war for survival I'd propose:
1. flattening the entire country and putting zero men on the ground to take real estate.
 
If we were to get distracted and spread thinner than we are in Iran, and if I was China, I would grab Taiwan.


And we are spread thin. Maybe Draft time?:eek:
 
By the logic of the current war, the U.S. should absolutely invade Iran. That said, we have little to gain in this case. Of course, if Iran is going nuclear, then that means the example we’re making out of Iraq is not having the desired effect.

~G. Fink
 
Domino said:
.
In fact, the whole reason the US is the superpower today is BECAUSE of WWII!

But not for the reasons you stipulate. The US stepped into superpowerhood because the Germans, French, and British destroyed themselves and each other economically and politically in costly world wars.

Economic weakness leads to military weakness, and both lead to collapse. It has been true for virtually all major empires throughout history.

USSR is dead. If we continue projecting global military power, we will just bankrupt ourselves in a few decades. With the current type of people in power, it will take even less.

Finally, there is a wide grey area between total isolationism and total imperialism. Pulling back to our borders is not necessarily isolationist. It simply is not imperialist or fiscally irresponsible.
 
R. H. Lee said, "We have enough oil reserves in the continental U.S. and Alaska to make us independent of reliance on foreign oil."

I just really do not believe that. We're importing over 50% of our national daily/annual usage. That's much more than the one million bpd estimated to be had from ANWR, and the offshore possible oil is another one or few million bpd. "New" oil from Alaska and from offshore fields isn't enough to make up the difference. It would probably help reduce current pricing, yeah. But that's all.

Now, we have alternative transportation fuels, but they're nowhere near being readily available. The big problem with them is that the energy required to provide them is a much larger percentage of the energy within. That is, oil is a 30:1 return on development energy. Alternatives are in the realm of 5:1.

Art
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top