Is 6 Shots Enough?

[barnbwt]

Do you guys think sea urchins have this discussion about spine sharpness?

I see it as a game of diminishing odds. You may be accosted by cowboys with flamethrowers astride velociraptors, but you may also randomly teleport away from the fight through a wormhole, just in time.


Seriously,
I think the continual urge to "better protect" against some unknown ill is either due to a paranoid lack of confidence to win any fight, or being in a completely indefensible situation. If I feel as vulnerable with a .22 single shot as a 10mm Glock, maybe my skills are what need to be upgraded . And if the neighborhood I'm in has me feeling undergunned with a 10mm, that's probably an indication I should be leaving quickly . There's no profit in defending the indefensible, that's what retreats are for .

Personally, I am comfortable being reasonably prepared for a reasonable altercation. But there's so many vagueties in that statement it's gibberish. Only practice will tell you what you need. It told me that 8 rounds at the ready in my revolver is jussssst right

TCB

mostly unrelated:

Guys when you say you live in a nice neighboorhood, that's where bad guys go to rob, they aren't going to get anything where they live. Also in this economy there is no neighboorhood that is above being robbed. I had my worse problems in good neighboorhoods.

I firmly believe 90% of home break-ins occur because someone you showed your possessions to blabbed to a low-life friend/relative. It's completely independent of where you live, and more dependent on your friend's brother's oxy/meth/bath-salts problem. If your "nice neighborhoods" are crime-ridden, they're not "nice neighborhoods." That's what makes ghettos "bad areas", not the absence of picket fences. I learned real early in Cincinnati that a "prosperous community" in close proximity to a hell-hole is just as dangerous. A relative of mine owned a McMansion outside Memphis; he and his neighbors had several violent break-ins, and a 45+ minute police response time at each incident. Sounds like a ghetto to me, but for the property values...

 

[NG VI]

It told me that 8 rounds at the ready in my revolver is jussssst right

For me capacity is more about having an efficient number of rounds on board for the size and weight of the gun in question.

I can't think of an 8 round revolver that offers anything over an 11-shot Glock 26 as a carry gun. The ability to load up hunting level loads is kind of a bonus, but not so much when you think about the inherent disadvantages involved, when you're measuring them as a daily carry gun.

 

[Warp]

No one cares how you walk your dog or that you live in a nice neighborhood.

Then don't present the question. You quoted me and asked "Would you...?", so I answered.

 

[scaatylobo]

Eight is enough -- until

Until its not.

No one knows how many rounds they will need when they leave the house .

That being a FACT,its up to the individual [ free country so far ] to choose and LIVE or die with their choice.

I hope and pray that I dont get to find out how many rounds I NEED.

It was fun to play at that game when I was young and about to 'live forever'.

But I do not want to find out that I would have lived had I made a better choice.

So do as y'all choose,and live with it -- I hope.

 

[hogdoc357]

For personal defense scenarios, Yes, I do believe 6 shots is enough with proper shot placement.

 

[barnbwt]

For me capacity is more about having an efficient number of rounds on board for the size and weight of the gun in question.

I also have a Five-seveN for that reason. I really only care for larger handguns, because they are more comfortable for me and point better, so size is more or less fixed for me. My revolver is a Scandium TRR8, so it's actually quite efficient as far as #.357 rounds/ounce. I would rather carry the. 357 because I believe the round is more versatile, and 8+8(moonclip/loader) is plenty for any trouble I'd have a chance of surviving. Remember that extra rounds carried for a revolver aren't there to "clear malfunctions"; I have 16 shots, while a full 1911 with two mags will have nearly the same after 1 early misfeed/mag-switch.

TCB

Amen, Scaatylobo

 

[gym]

Not true in FL , BarnBwt, the state is set up with good neighboorhoods surrounded by less than good neighboorhoods. For instance 4 days ago Comcast came out with another of their lists. The most dangerous citys, 4 or 5 were in FL, 2 where whare my 2 best friends live and where I lived, Now I am up the coast in Vero, there are more Fortune 500 Ex CEO's. who have homes in Vero than anyware else in the country, But last week the crime stats, hit alltime highs. The 4 citys mentioned were Palm Beach, Deerfield, Boynton, and Miami. So that is from the tip right through Ftlauderdale, "which was also mentioned, into and through Palm Beach, The entire coast. Someone is Killed in Boynton with a firearm at least once a week, we stopped listening to the news.
My gym was in Deerfield and my home, our friends still live there, and it's adjcent to Boca Raton, you drift in and out. I was 500 feet from the Boca border on Powerline and hillsboro, "my gym and house".
So they are telling us that all of South Florida up to Martin County is a dangerous place to be. That's where half the retired people in the country live. And the prices have come back nicelly where I live.

 

[smitty704]

I agree with scaatylobo 100%. That is a great way of looking at it, "Being prepared for your worse case scenario." I feel that once I get my extra mag carrier then I will be ready for my worse case scenario. G19 + extra mag + LCP + flashlight + Spyderco= prepared. I'll pass on the 6 shot revolver thing, it's 2012. Thugs have semi-auto's, so why shouldn't I?

My worse case scenario is being attacked my multiple assailants, which is a 50% chance according to James Yeager.

YMMV

smitty704

 

[Skribs]

Gym, in Lakewood, WA, the "ghetto" is literally a block away from the lakeside homes. So I know exactly what you mean.

 

[charlie fox]

Yes; it's about shot placement first, foremost and always! Multiple loud misses with any weapon has zero effect on your opponent. I have never felt under-gunned carrying a 5-6 shot revolver. If I were in a combat zone or kicking down felony suspect doors where multiple targets were a possibility then a high capacity pistol makes more sense; of course I'd probably be carrying a rifle or a shotgun with a bunch of well armed buddies with me

I also now believe semi-automatics are easier to train new shooters with; the manual of arms may be a bit more complicated, but the recoil and trigger pulls are more conducive to consistent hits. But basics are basics - front sight, squeeze, repeat as necessary

 

[TimboKhan]

OK. I don't want to close this as it doesn't really merit it at this time (though there has been some snarkiness), but I also don't know that further discussion is goign to produce anything of particular value.

Not that I am the end all be all expert on this matter, but it seems to me that a couple of major lessons should be drawn from this:

1. Carry what you personally feel most comfortable with. As has been mentioned, it's your hide, so if your comfortable with 5 or 6, then go forth and feel protected. If you feel like you need more, carry more. It's not a crime to go one way or the other.

2. Shoot what you carry so as to maximize your ability to place shots precisely.

3. Situational awareness is important.

 

[Kleanbore]

The answer to the question is given succinctly in Post #79 by scaatylobo:

Eight is enough -- until

Until its not.

No one knows how many rounds they will need when they leave the house .

That being a FACT,its up to the individual [ free country so far ] to choose and LIVE or die with their choice.

That is a fact. It is indisputable. It should also be obvious.

To be able to choose on an informed basis requires just a little more background on (1) what it takes to engage multiple attackers very quickly; and (2) the effectiveness of handguns in stopping attackers.

For the first, we cannot overemphasize the importance of good, relevant training.

For the second, there is expert opinion available for one's information.

 

[kimura]

OK. I don't want to close this as it doesn't really merit it at this time (though there has been some snarkiness), but I also don't know that further discussion is goign to produce anything of particular value.

Not that I am the end all be all expert on this matter, but it seems to me that a couple of major lessons should be drawn from this:

1. Carry what you personally feel most comfortable with. As has been mentioned, it's your hide, so if your comfortable with 5 or 6, then go forth and feel protected. If you feel like you need more, carry more. It's not a crime to go one way or the other.

2. Shoot what you carry so as to maximize your ability to place shots precisely.

3. Situational awareness is important.

Excellent summation. Everyone has a comfort level. Depends on what yours is. If you're comfortable with six rounds, cool. Also worth adding to the list is what's acceptable in your social setting. Sometimes carrying a Glock 21 is perfectly acceptable; however, sometimes you need to be a little more discreet, so a jframe or a 26 is the choice of the day.

Personally, I think weight is king, so Glock or M&P etc make a whole lot of sense to me. Relatively high capacity in a light weight package. And size choices to fit most occasions. Just my opinion though and you may feel otherwise.

 

[skeeziks]

There are times when I just can't carry what I really would like to.... In the hot FL sun, wearing very little clothing, the most I can conceal is my snub-nose in a pocket holster. If 5 won't be enough, should it go down...then so-be-it!
When it's cooler, and I am wearing a jacket, I am able to arm myself to the teeth if I choose.
Most of the time it's out of our hands....

 

[Warp]

There are times when I just can't carry what I really would like to.... In the hot FL sun, wearing very little clothing, the most I can conceal is my snub-nose in a pocket holster. If 5 won't be enough, should it go down...then so-be-it!
When it's cooler, and I am wearing a jacket, I am able to arm myself to the teeth if I choose.
Most of the time it's out of our hands....

I disagree with this.

It is a choice. We all make our own, and we may all choose differently, but to say it is out of your hands, due to the weather...that is simply not correct. It makes me wonder if you really believe that the snub in your pocket is a good decision. It sounds to me like you are trying to justify your choice by saying you don't really have a choice. But you do.

As always you are free to choose as you see fit.

 

[skeeziks]

Warp...you are not listening. If I have no place to Conceal my weapon then what am I supposed to do? Wear it in a Hollywood rig like Marshall Dillon and get arrested for open carry?
And obviously you didn't read the first line of my post too well. I said "There are times when I just can't carry what I would like to."

I'll say this just 1 more time.... If I'm wearing shorts and a tank top with flip flops, the best I can do is a snub in my pocket holster.

It's outta my hands.

 

[Warp]

Warp...you are not listening. If I have no place to Conceal my weapon then what am I supposed to do? Wear it in a Hollywood rig like Marshall Dillon and get arrested for open carry?
And obviously you didn't read the first line of my post too well. I said "There are times when I just can't carry what I would like to."

I'll say this just 1 more time.... If I'm wearing shorts and a tank top with flip flops, the best I can do is a snub in my pocket holster.

It's outta my hands.

But you CAN carry what you would like to. You choose not to. You judge the discomfort is not worth it. That's fine. It's your choice, I won't tell you it is a bad one. But it IS a choice.

It is not out of your hands.

 

[FoMoGo]

I have worked Az, NM, Fla, Ms, Tx, during the summer.
Pants, T shirt, over shirt.
Carrying 1911s and N frames.
It is a choice to not wear clothes that conceal well.


Jim

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by kimura: Everyone has a comfort level. Depends on what yours is. If you're comfortable with six rounds, cool.

I'm sure no one disagrees with the statements in Post #79. Thus, regardless of whether one may be "comfortable" with six rounds, no one can know whether six is enough.

One would hope that if one is comfortable with six, that that feeling is based upon an informed decision.

Posted by skeeziks: If I'm wearing shorts and a tank top with flip flops, the best I can do is a snub in my pocket holster.

With shorts and an un-tucked shirt, I can carry a compact double column semi-auto or a J Frame, IWB.

If I were limited to a pocket holster, and if I had concluded that it would be prudent to carry more than five, i just might consider carrying two revolvers.

Right now, I am carrying one revolver with five rounds. I am more comfortable than I would be if I were not armed. As scaatylobo put it, I hope and pray that I don't get to find out how many rounds I need.

 

[skeeziks]

Quote= "But you CAN carry what you would like to. You choose not to. You judge the discomfort is not worth it. That's fine. It's your choice, I won't tell you it is a bad one. But it IS a choice."

You're correct....I DO choose not to. But it has nothing to do with discomfort being not worth it. It has to do with not wanting to get arrested for open carry of a firearm.

Please enlighten me as to where on my body I'm supposed to carry a full-size handgun while wearing shorts and a tank and not have the gun show or print?

 

[FoMoGo]

Please enlighten me as to where on my body I'm supposed to carry a full-size handgun while wearing shorts and a tank and not have the gun show or print?

Smart carry, or just dress around the gun.


Jim

 

[Warp]

You're correct....I DO choose not to.

That's all I'm saying.

It is a choice. It is your choice.

If you wanted to you could wear a different shirt and carry a larger gun. Concealed.



Personally I concealed a Glock 21SF under an untucked T-shirt yesterday. If I was more interested in comfort I would have made it a Glock 19, or maybe a Glock 26. No need to jump straight from a snub nose to a full size duty pistol.

 

[skeeziks]

Funny Guy...Warp.

 

[fastbolt]

You know, upon occasion when some shooter has asked me whether they "needed" more ammunition capacity ... which is a moot point if you're using an issued pistol ... I've asked them how well they can effectively use the existing ammunition load in their issued & personally-owned weapons.

Sometimes this has been after they've just completed a qual course-of-fire, and the person asking this question seems to suddenly gain some better insight into how they could stand to improve their skills.

Giving someone more ammunition to miss with is probably going to create more potential hazards down-range ...

I know some guys who have been in some shooting incidents on & off duty. I can think of 3 of them who still include a 6-shot K-frame revolver (and one a 5-shot J-frame) among their off-duty & retirement weapons.

I see no reason to gainsay their choices.

Making an informed decision about such equipment choices is the responsibility of each responsible private firearms owner who chooses to lawfully carry a handgun for defensive purpose.

Not everyone agrees on the criteria used for making an informed choice, or even what may constitute an "informed" choice. Acquiring additional training, knowledge & experience can help, but not everyone shares the same training, knowledge & experience, either.

Individual freedom of choice (as long as it remains lawful within the existing laws, of course), and making such decisions, may ultimately result in the individual making the decision having to face the consequences of their decision.

It's still just a handgun, though.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by fastbolt: Not everyone agrees on the criteria used for making an informed choice, or even what may constitute an "informed" choice. Acquiring additional training, knowledge & experience can help, but not everyone shares the same training, knowledge & experience, either.

True.

These points might serve as a general framework for how to establish the bases for an informed decision:

• Learning how many rounds it can take one to score a specified number of hits on one or more fast moving violent criminal attackers; relevant training, including FoF training, can go a long way toward that end; range practice will be of little help.
• Gaining some appreciation for what it can take to quickly stop a determined assailant with a handgun; research can help with that. One well known instructor suggests keeping a copy of Gray's Anatomy on the bookshelf. Hint: it doesn't happen the way it does in screen fiction.
• Accepting the fact that there is a significant likelihood that more than one attacker may be involved.
• Understanding that the fact that the liklihood of needing to draw and fire in the first place is less than remote does not enter into the calculation; the analyis starts when the game is on.

Given the constructs of an informed decision, the next step is to exercise judgment. The question is, how much risk is one willing to accept, and that must be answered in light of an assessment of what it would take to mitigate each element of risk.

That's entirely an individual decision.

For me, the answer is not always the same. Often, I carry a J Frame. I never choose to go anywhere "dangerous" if I can avoid it, but when I know in advance that I am going to what predators may consider a "target rich environment" (what Tom Givens has referred to as an analogy to a "water hole on the Serengeti")*, I will carry more.

My head will be on a swivel, and I will be willing to drive around once and drive away if things do not seem right.
________

*Examples include ATMs, and parking lots near major arteries or certain kinds of stores. I live close to two of the major drug arteries in the nation; in a county that leads the state in meth lab busts; within a few miles of a city with a very high rate for violent crime, and many places I go are very accessible to the bad guys on wheels. Most violent crime reports except for bank robberies involve two or more suspects.​