Is 6 Shots Enough?

Status
Not open for further replies.
"I see it as a game of diminishing odds. You may be accosted by cowboys with flamethrowers astride velociraptors, but you may also randomly teleport away from the fight through a wormhole, just in time."

Barnbwt... Thank you... Every time i see someone with a similar thought process, it makes me feel a bit better about the world.

Of course... if the velociraptors are ROBOT raptors... you're screwed, Otherwise take the mounts out and rupture the fuel tanks, should give you enough time to get to your 100m tall city-crushing robot.

I split my carry between a M&P .40 and a Blackhawk .45 colt... with a Schofield replica thrown in for variety (with one empty chamber to rest the Full hammer on).

Short of angering a Torch-bearing mob, I feel equally armed with any of these 3 regulars.
 
Some good points Kleanbore (as usual). ;)

While the FoF training is rapidly becoming understood to be an excellent training venue, albeit one that may be hard and/or expensive for prospective students to find and use (especially one supervised by a properly trained instructor), there's still the issue of having acquired and developed the foundation skillset with the weapon in order to really benefit from the specialized FoF training venue, and understand) some of the things to be learned.

Kind of like how students in the martial arts still have to develop and continue to refine their foundation techniques & skillset before best benefiting from more advanced contact training & practice. You can cut some corners and acquire "self-defense" skills of a more limited scope and range (but hopefully varied enough for "most" anticipated needs), but the serious student might better benefit from continued mat time. A combination of training methods evolves at some point.

Yep, if more folks took some time to grasp human anatomy, and understood how the body worked and reacted to injury, they might have a more realistic approach to their expectations when it involves gunshot wounding effects.

The potential for their to be a "significant likelihood" of more than one attacker being involved is hard to predict. Then again, look how many folks looking to learn a "serious" martial art for "defense" become attracted to some form of grappling ... which pretty much limits your ability to defend against more than a single attacker at any one time. :scrutiny: How many chokes and locks would you see if MMA fighters faced more than a single opponent at a time during a round? (But hey, there's money in MMA.)

The whole risk assessment process is where many folks seem to start to veer off in weird, or perhaps just impractical, directions, I think. Learning to ask the right questions may not directly lead to the "right" definitive answers, but it is a good place to start. The whole self-assessment and risk assessment process might vary among folks.

I use a similar process to yours. I often carry a J-frame, although I also have any number of increasingly larger pistols from which I can choose. I train, practice & qual with them often enough for me to remain confident in their use. If I discover, or just start to suspect, that I've lost that level of "unconscious competence" with any of them, I'll emphasize my attention on it while working range sessions.

The other thing I've done over the years is meld my arts training and practice to my firearms, especially the handguns. It worked with blades and bodily weapons. Why not with guns? Of course, I started my arts training back in '71, and it's been a lifelong pursuit & discipline, so I've had some time to refine and learn to apply it to my daily life.

You're absolutely right about remaining aware of our ever changing environment. Not easy, but ignored at our peril (maybe literally). "Situational awareness" and learning to recognize potential danger situations can help, huh? :)

Oh yeah, somewhere far down the list of considerations and concerns is that pesky "ammunition capacity" factor, I suppose, right?

For some of the other folks participating in this thread topic?

You're fortunate if you've never had the tragic experience of knowing someone, like another cop, who died after exhausting a "hi-cap" pistol, without incapacitating their murderer. Or someone who was seriously injured while burning through most of their duty pistol magazine loadout, only being able to incapacitate their attacker after realizing they had to stop "shooting instinctively", and start actually aiming, so they could get solid hits. (And then stopping their attackers after only 1-3 further aimed shots.)

How about the folks who have faced down, and stopped, anywhere from 2 or 3 to 8 attackers using "limited" capacity 1911's and S&W K-frame .38's? You can slip a few users of 5-shot .38's in there, too.

I've listened to a lot of cops who were involved in shootings ... on & off-duty, some seriously injured and some not ... discuss their realization of the importance of being able to accurately & effectively hit their attackers, and a surprising number of them haven't put nearly the emphasis on either caliber or specific magazine capacity as the private citizens who seem to frequent the internet firearms forums.

I suspect that none of us have all, or even most, of the "answers". I sure don't.

I make my choices based upon my own training, knowledge, experience and best judgment. I realize the potential consequences of those choices.

That's why I only make them for myself, and let other folks shoulder the same responsibilities and potential consequences for themselves.

Maybe it would be easier if I was somebody's idea of an "expert", but I'm not.
 
I've never carried a BUG, but I've been thinking about it. I carry a G26 and a spare G17 magazine, put it on in when I get up and take it off when I go to bed. I either carry IWB at 3:30 or in my strong side cargo pocket. I carry in the cargo pocket at home or if I'm going to be driving a lot and getting out and walking very little. Cargo pocket is very comfortable for lounging around and its very accessible while driving. IWB if I'm going to be walking around. I'm thinking a second G26 weak side cargo pocket combined with IWB instead of the spare magazine would be a better choice because two things a second gun gives over a primary and a spare magazine is weakside access and some jams don't clear quickly.
 
I can't imagine a Glock in a pocket being very comfortable.

What kind of holster do you use for cargo pocketing a Glock? Loaded chamber, or empty?
 
I just got my superfly pocket holster for my G26. I've been carrying it this way for a few days. It's really not bad at all. It feels like a really big wallet.
 
Odds would seem to favor you dramatically that 5 would be enough

Factor one

SD scenarios almost never happen, especially if you dont put yourself in dangerous situations. Sort of like getting hit by lightning as odds.

Factor two

I have read that a great many SD scenarios that do happen, end immediately when a weapon is presented and no shots are fired. The BG runs away. I imagine this happens a great deal, and isnt publicized as much as a shooting

Factor three

Some studies point to the vast majority of SD shootings involve 1-3 shots from the person being attacked

Factor four

Carry a reload, this will give you 10 rounds...... Practice , practice, you will be fine

If you puts these factors together and think defensive and not offensive........ The dramatic odds are you wont need the extra rounds

Should you jump in and be a hero for the $28.37 at the cash register being robbed at
the Seven-11?

Let me say, that unless an innocent is directly in a true threat............. I am not playing the hero.

Do I want to start slinging lead at a BG with him shooting at me as well? What if an innocent is
killed BEHIND me, because I started firing when i didnt really need to, and the BG was a bad shot??? (do you think most BGs go to the range to practice accurately?)

I am NOT seeking a gunfight. That mentality may keep someone from getting killed.

My weapon is LAST resort, when all else fails.

Life is almost always not like TV, with protracted gunfights.

Could there be a case where 5 isnt enough? Yes..... But unless you are an LEO, you LIKELY will
never, ever, ever, need it

I believe the mentality of the CCW will also contribute to rounds fired and the outcome of the encou ter
What you said.
 
If I'm wearing shorts and a tank top with flip flops, the best I can do is a snub in my pocket holster.


I never had any problem thoroughly concealing a Glock 27 in a FIST #1AK, while wearing a t-shirt and shorts.

Often they were board shorts, so not even the option of wearing a belt.

If you decide to wear a tank top, or not buy an appropriate concealment holster, you are making a conscious choice that the forty bucks for a better holster or a minor adjustment in your clothing is not worth the gain of having a more capable weapon on you in a more accessible rig.

It's fine, it's not like a J frame or LCP is not a lethal weapon, but let's be real here, they are not as capable a fighting gun as the subcompact service pistol class of guns that has cropped up since the Glock 26/27 hit the scene.

And pocket carry is comfortable with light guns and gives you some slight tactical options a holster doesn't, but it's not as fast or as secure or as repeatable as any half-decent in waistband holster.

It's all a balance. If you're carrying a gun, you're already more prepared for unwanted troubles than most. It just doesn't take that much more effort to carry in a generally better way.
 
For me, the answer is not always the same. Often, I carry a J Frame. I never choose to go anywhere "dangerous" if I can avoid it, but when I know in advance that I am going to what predators may consider a "target rich environment" (what Tom Givens has referred to as an analogy to a "water hole on the Serengeti")*, I will carry more.

I do something similar. If I know I am going into a riskier part of the world, I carry my G26, and a spare mag. Like you, my head is on a swivel in those areas.

For the most part, I feel perfectly comfortable with my 605, and thats largely a factor of caliber and practice. Sometime a few years back, I realized that I was a terrible double action shooter, so I started learning how to shoot DA. I am still not totally awesome, but I can place rounds pretty close to right where I want them, rapidly.

I would love to do some FoF training. I cannot afford it, so I make do by running drills with my buddies, shooting from weird positions, weak hand, etc.. Probably 50% of my .357 shooting at this point is drills, the other 50% is just marksmanship.
 
I like comfort in my carry gun. a higher capacity Glock or similar double stack is uncomfortable for me and my 1911s are heavy. I like a snubnose revolver crossdraw, I use my keltec p11 but not as often. If i'm in a long drawn out gunfight, im screwed but if I walked into it....I probably was to begin with.
 
What kind of holster do you use for cargo pocketing a Glock? Loaded chamber, or empty?
I made one. I did not really like any pocket holster for a cargo pocket since most seem oriented more for front pocket. I've revised it a couple of times over the years. I reinforce over the trigger guard so it can't be fired and carry chambered.
 
6 shots is enough. 5 shots is enough. One or two shots can get the job done if you can place them properly. If you use more than 5 or 6 shots, you've either wandered into something really bad or you went somewhere you shouldn't have in the first place. If you carry a gun with a 15-round magazine and you run out of ammunition, you're probably in a fire fight and you should have been thinking about leaving anyway.
 
It only took Vincent 3 shots plus one to make sure he finished one off to takeout two street punks to get his briefcase back and one of them had a gun in his face :what:
 
One useful tip to keep in mind, no matter what kind of handgun you carry: If you think you might ever have to reload under stress, PRACTICE RELOADING, before you ever get in a stressful situation, until it becomes automatic.
I've seen lots and lots of defensive pistol competitions where people get flustered when shooting under the clock, even with nobody shooting back at them. I see dropped speedloaders, speedloaders dumping ammo on the ground, fumbles in pockets trying to find spare magazines, magazines dropping out because they weren't seated fully, or some combination of the above at practically every match. At the range, it only costs some time on your score, in Real Life, it could cost you more.
 
I carry 5/6 shot .38s. My reasoning is this: it's better than a poke with a sharp stick, innit? There HAVE been cases where one junkie has not been stopped by 6 shots. There have been cases of junkies not being stopped by INSANE numbers of pistol bullets. Crystal meth is weird stuff that way. So is cocaethanol (cocaine hydrochloride and ethal alcohol- crack and malt liquor will do). But the way I figure, if 5 or 6 hollowpoint .38+Ps won't work, the problem won't be that i should've had a glock- it'll be that i needed a 12ga with frangible slugs.
As always, the gun is a tool that increases your odds of survival; there are no guarantees. Stay safe.
 
6 shots is enough. 5 shots is enough. One or two shots can get the job done if you can place them properly. If you use more than 5 or 6 shots, you've either wandered into something really bad or you went somewhere you shouldn't have in the first place. If you carry a gun with a 15-round magazine and you run out of ammunition, you're probably in a fire fight and you should have been thinking about leaving anyway.

One or two shots can fail to stop the attack in a timely fashion, even if you place them properly. We're talking about handguns here.

If you use more than 5 or 6 it might be because you have an average hit rate and it took you 6+ shots to land 1-2 quality hits.

If you use more than 5 or 6 it might be because there were two attackers.

If you use more than 5 or 6 it might be because you were injured before firing those shots and, unlike standing on the range in perfect conditions, hitting a moving target with a handgun when you have broken bones, a MASSIVE adrenaline dump coursing through your veins, and your grip is weak and slipper from the fight (hands on self defense) you just had and the blood that is all over your shooting hand. Or maybe you hurt your shooting hand and are firing off hand, with your off hand.

Read stories and reports about actual defensive uses and real world shooting.

Crap happens.

If you need more than 6, you are having a =very= bad day, and they likely won't do you any good anyway.

If you need ONE you are having a *VERY* bad day!
 
#s

Six?
One is enough. Just depends on which one. Hopefully, it'll be the first.
Multiple attackers...slightly off topic but I always wonder, when I read in threads like this about attack scenarios, where people are going that the threat of attack is so imminent? I realize that bad things happen and could, I suppose, happen to me.....but so far 65 years have passed....the last 30 in NYC....and it just ain't likely. I stay away from bad places and bad times of day.
Not everyone can, I understand that...LEOs are the prime example.
Pete
 
Six?
One is enough. Just depends on which one. Hopefully, it'll be the first.
Multiple attackers...slightly off topic but I always wonder, when I read in threads like this about attack scenarios, where people are going that the threat of attack is so imminent? I realize that bad things happen and could, I suppose, happen to me.....but so far 65 years have passed....the last 30 in NYC....and it just ain't likely. I stay away from bad places and bad times of day.
Not everyone can, I understand that...LEOs are the prime example.
Pete

Do you carry a gun?
 
Pete, sometimes guys have a couple friends and want to pick on someone, or there are places that are great family locations by day but have a reputation for gang hangouts at night. Multiple attackers could be something as crazy as trying to take on the mafia, but in general it means a couple thugs who know each other who are the assailants.

I'm a small guy, and if I were to start a career as a mugger, I'd sure get a couple friends to help out.
 
Guns are a survival tool. Better to have one than not.

As Clint Smith says "Guns are not meant to be comfortable, they are meant to be comforting". Whatever you have, shoot it well. Train with what you carry. I carry a 1911 commander, but alternate now with a PM9 with an extra mag. Both guns have about the same capacity, but I feel I can get off enough shots to keep the attacker at bay or immobilized.

Heck, if you run out of shots with the 1911, you just beat them with it. It is all steel!
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top