Iver Johnson, Doesn’t Quite Fit

[jcw556]

Sorting thru some firearms for the widow of a friend and just can’t nail this one down.
Looks like an IJ right? But what model/year? And no IJ marks on gun (other than grips)?
Help would be appreciated.



No markings on top strap.


A 4 digit SN preceded by an A.

 

[KarateHottie93]

That's a Smith.

Actually, I'm probably wrong. Just wanted to reply first. Sorry.

H&R maybe?

 

[KarateHottie93]

Is it be this yo?!

https://www.gunauction.com/buy/5933081

 

[jcw556]

Nope. Not me.

 

[jcw556]

Looks close. Not enough detail in pics.

 

[jcw556]

Is it be this yo?!

https://www.gunauction.com/buy/5933081

Not my auction. Looks close.

 

[KarateHottie93]

Looks close. Not enough detail in pics.

With the barrel markings as they are, it's most likely a Smith or an IJ as you said. It has IJ grips so I'm gonna go with Safety Automatic. Dating it back to the right period is gonna be the hard part.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

A stylized IJ and owl's head on the grip?
I am tempted to say Iver Johnson, too.

 

[jcw556]

I guess you can see why it’s got me a little puzzled.

 

[Monac]

That's an Iver Johnson Safety Revolver Third Model 32 S&W. I would guess it has been to the United Kingdom or some British Commonwealth country that proofed tested it and put those markings on it. I am bit surprised that black powder is specified, because I thought the Third Models were made for smokeless. Wikipedia agrees with me, and states that Third Model production started in 1909. I'd want to confirm that by checking Bill Goforth's Iver Johnson book, though.

Quite a few revolvers like this went to the UK in 1940, after Dunkirk, when the British published ads in US papers calling for donations of arms of all kinds. Could have been a commercial export well before that time, of course.

Note that it's a called a Safety Model because it's got Iver Johnson's transfer bar firing mechanism, and not because it is hammerless (which it isn't). That used to confuse me.

 

[jcw556]

Thanks for the information.
It also seemed to me to be a later model, but the BP designation and 4 digit SN threw me off. Also haven’t seen any identified as IJ’s without marks on top strap, but don’t really have much experience here.
Appreciate the help.

 

[jcw556]

Don’t know if this might be an import mark or if it’s typical for IJ’s.

 

[Monac]

That might be something to do with the proofing, or with whatever organization had possession of the gun at one time. I suppose it could be a retailer's mark too, but it reminds me more of a proof mark of some kind, or of a UK War Department mark. Like I said, it could be from any Commonwealth nation.

I think IJ restarted their serial numbers every 10,000 or so with a new letter prefix. Once again, I'd have to check Goforth's book.

PS - If you scroll down this far enough: https://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/266541-help-identifying-an-old-bsa-shotgun/

You will come to a list of Birmingham proof house codes of which "H B" is one. It is for 1957, however, which seems like an odd date for this gun.

 

[jcw556]

The proof mark listing is very interesting. I tried to research it and had gotten no where.
Cool stuff.

 

[jcw556]

1957 does seem an odd date.
The proof marks are right on though. Maybe HB was used around the turn of the century as well.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I agree, that is an Iver Johnson.

Most definitively not a Smith and Wesson.

Also, that is not a Black Powder model.

Around 1900 IJ completely redesigned their line of revolvers. The little owl facing backwards, plus the coil mainspring indicates that is a Smokeless powder model. Also note the shape of the notches on the cylinder that lock the cylinder in place. Note they have a hard edge both top and bottom. Contrast that to the shape of the notches on the one in the auction. Note that one does not have hard edges top and bottom on the notches. The older Black Powder Iver Johnsons used the hand to keep the cylinder from rotating backwards. The newer ones, like the one posted, used better steel and were safe to shoot with Smokeless powder.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

The only Iver Johnson’s revolvers I’ve ever heard of not being marked on the top strap are the shorter barrel factory “Bicycle guns”. Those are quite rare to find from what I understand. I would say it’s either one of those, or about as likely it was a standard model customized into a similar pattern to the bicycle guns a long time ago. Either way, very cool and interesting to think where it’s been.

 

[jcw556]

Hey, you guys are good at this. Lots of insightful info.
Morac’s lead on English proof marks led down an interesting rabbit hole.
As best I can tell, the BP proof marks on each cylinder chamber, frame and barrel are from Birmingham Proof House and possibly used from 1904 to 1925. The crossed pennants mark is a British military proof. The HB Proof Mark seems to also be from Birmingham, but either from 1957 or date unknown.
I agree it has the parts of a third model, and perhaps was originally mis-marked as BP in Birmingham.
If the mark with HB in it is from 1957, then I’m wondering if barrel was replaced, thus no IJ marks on top strap, and the proof mark was due to reproofing.
Fun mystery to try and solve.
Thanks for the knowledgeable help.
Got anything to add, please fire away.

 

[jcw556]

Crossed Pennant proof mark of British military and BP stamp.

 

[jcw556]

I was conflicted about the 4 digit serial number, but further research shows other third model IJ’s with same. So possibly an early third model considering the “A” prefix.

 

[BobWright]

Despite the grips, the gun appears to be one of those made by Marlin for the hardware trade. All other manufacturers clearly marked their guns with their names. And the "caliber, loading data" is definitely aftermarket. And either English or Belgian proof marks.

Marlin made many top break .32 and .38 caliber revolvers which as I recall were sold uder the "Bluegrass" and "Belknap" brands or similar hardware distributors of the day.

Bob Wright

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

Something else to think about: I’ve read about guns exactly like this being issued to SOE and OSS radio operators in occupied Europe during WWII. The U.S. even made some FMJ .32S&W to use with guns of this type so as not to run afoul of The Hague convention. The small civilian self defense type guns wouldn’t instantly raise suspicions the same way a Webley or 1911 might not to mention they were smaller and easier to hide. I think the point was to have something on hand for a quick suicide option if capture was imminent more than any sort of actual combat weapon.

*An Edit*

A brief search gave no results as to specifically Iver Johnson .32 revolvers having been used by he OSS although it seems H&R did make nearly the same basic gun, and 1500 of those did get purchased by then OSS specifically. I’ll have to see if there is any info on the SOE possibly utilizing the Iver Johnson revolvers.

As a side note, in the same brief search I found that my source for my belief of the OSS using I.J. revolvers was the late, and certainly great Old Fuff himself.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/ivory-johnson-32-revolver.351864/

I very much wish I could ask him where he might have heard it, and it would be a great chance to thank him for a lot of great advice as well.

 

[Slamfire]

This is in the 1908 Sear Catalog:



and so is this.



There has to be a number of manufacturer's who made top break revolvers similar in appearance to Iver Johnson, but who disappeared in time and are remembered no more.

How many people remember the Randall 1911? How many will remember them 100 years from now?

 

[jcw556]

Thanks Bob. Another direction to explore. Didn’t know Marlin was in on this as well, although I did read about hardware store IJ models. Any take on whether you think the BP marks are incorrect and it’s smokeless?

 

[jcw556]

Great info. Thanks.
Love a good mystery.
Going to do more digging.