Loaded gun in the gun shop!?

[larry_minn]

Regards putting ammo in gun. I was friends with a FFL who did a lot of gun shows. (he is not retired from that)
He was very safety minded. EVERY gun got checked when he set up his table (with guns that were in his locked van/in his locked garage from last weekend show)
So on setup everything is unloaded/he does not sell ammo/so none for rifles along. He shows the rifle many times and checks it. 2nd day in morning (before show) he checks EVERY gun again. (It is not unknown for nightime security to be checking stuff out)
At end of show he packs stuff up and goes home. Early in week a friend comes by to buy that rifle (that he had looked at before) So they dig it out of (the locked van in locked garage) Well the rifle is LOADED. The only way that could happen is for someone to have PUT a live rd in it. (that they had to bring)

 

[bootless]

I was at a local shop the other day and I asked one of the guys behind the counter if I could look at a Mark III. He pulled it out of the case went to check the chamber before he handed it to me. For some reason the action was stuck so he started yanking on it while he pointed it directly at my chest. I moved as quickly as I could out of the way. He looked at me like I was an idiot. I would of expected more from a worker at a gun shop. There's a lot of unsafe people out there

 

[RoostRider]

The gun shop is open to the public. They need to leave the weapons accessible to the public. You cannot rely on the public to be informed of gun safety. The gun shop cannot guarantee your life that the guns will remain unloaded (Worker may be stupid, or Joe public may load a round "just to see" or for malevolent reasons). You are cognizant of gun safety. Therefore it sort of relies on you to treat every gun as if it were loaded.... which is to say, act like it really is a big deal whenever someone sweeps you with a barrel... in a gun shop or otherwise....

Glad it worked out OK for you..... and I have been the guy getting swept at the gun shop.... and I didn't speak up, just got out of the way looking irritated.... next time I will.... a simple "Hey, rule #1- Treat every gun as if it is loaded", should suffice without seeming too 'paranoid' or judgmental.... I think 'ignorant' folks might take OK to that and maybe even pay attention to the 'new rule' they learned... maybe?

 

[zombienerd]

I know if I owned a gun shop, I'd have a locked inner door with a buzzer. In order to pass the inner door you'd have to read the four laws of my store before I let you in.

Same thing goes for if I owned a shooting range. Every person through the door that wasn't a repeat customer would have to watch a 5 minute safety video before stepping through the door to the line.

 

[bigfatdave]

Too many people are used to being looked after like a helpless flock these days.

It is getting pretty pitiful. Not applying common sense is becoming far too common.

You cannot rely on the public to be informed of gun safety

Bull. Realizing that pointing a firearm at a human being is impolite is simple enough for anyone who understands what a gun is. I am tired of making excuses for the stupid and ignorant, particularly the willfully stupid and ignorant.
One shop I visit fairly frequently seems to have brand-new shooters in there more than others. That's fine, I was a brand-new shooter not that long ago myself. I'm willing to make ONE polite correction, along the lines of "excuse me, do you mind pointing that thing somewhere besides at me?" ... after that I get a lot less polite, I know that the owner/operator gives a "handgun handling for dummies" brief to anyone he doesn't recognize BEFORE he hands over a pistol ... so my polite warning is a second reminder. The last time I was re-swept after a polite reminder, I went with "if you're so sure it is unloaded, how about you point it at yourself while you monkey with the trigger?" The pistol was returned to the case rapidly, and the owner apologized for handing it over while he ran paperwork, which was good, because I was about to leave 150 rounds on his counter and leave after he handed an idiot a handgun and wandered into the back.

 

[1911Tuner]

So telling someone to "watch where they point" that may be even more likely to result in it being fired in a gunshop.

Yup.

Years ago, whilst workin' behind a counter...guy walks in with a Winchester 70. .270 caliber, seems like. Carried the rifle in one hand...horizontally. Swept 3 people before he even got through the door. Me an' the other man on the job caution him to open the breech. He says not to worry. Not loaded, sez Bubba. Points it up at a slight angle and pulls trigger.

BANG!

10 people in the store immediately hit the deck.

The smell of burned nitrocellulose hangs thick in the air. A little smoke.

Stony silence ensued for about 10 seconds with muttered curses followed by louder curses.

Bullet passes within a couple inches of an accountant who worked in the office above the shop, just missing his foot. Killed the light fixture above his head, and went on through the ceiling, and was later determined that it was stopped by the joisting.

 

[jaholder1971]

Needless to say, the manager of the shop was more than slightly concerned. I am assuming that whoever the employee was who brought that gun out for display will be waiting in line at the temp service soon.

If the customer simply picked a rifle off the rack and found it loaded, there's nothing to say some idiot or nutjob didn't load it AFTER the employee put it on the rack.

You wouldn't believe some of the things some gun shop "customers" will do.

 

[subierex]

I don't go to gun shops very often, but see this nearly every time. Let's face it, there's a large segment of the gun-owning population in this country that doesn't take gun safety very seriously. Sad.

 

[lebowski]

It always amazes me how many people seem to think the 4 rules don't apply in gun stores, employees included.

 

[MattTheHat]

Having a weapon pointed at me is inherently dangerous and my instinct is that I would have to take *some* action. As already mentioned, telling the guy off doesn't work. Ducking doesn't work, as it's very likely that my doing so will put someone else in the line of fire (quite possibly a family member or friend).

If the offender is within arms' length I don't think I would be able to overcome the instinct to grab the gun and MAKE it safe. I'm honestly not trying to be a smart acre, but when a gun of any sort is within my range of grasp, I'm very much waiting to grab it if need be. Maybe it comes from teaching my kids to shoot and having to be ready to redirect the gun if they pointed it in an unsafe direction. (Which they always seem to do a few times.)

If I were swept at any greater distance, I think my response would be, (in my best imitation of my father's angry voice) to say something like: "Hey @sshole, don't point that gun at me!" If it said loudly and directly enough, the reaction is likely to be compliance. If the gun isn't moved, or if is pointed back at me, I would be moving as quickly as possible in order to take the weapon before the idiot has a chance to "show me it's not loaded" by pulling the trigger.

Fortunately I've never had this experience. But again, I think my immediate response would be to physically remove the gun from the idiot.

-Matt

 

[fase3]

First the wife and I have no children-I'm a active 68 year old living on a farm in a rural area of south La. When you walk into my house the first thing you see is a sign that reads "Treat all the guns in this house as being loaded-Because they are!" No problems!

 

[CoRoMo]

So how am I supposed to clean my glock?

Follow the rules...

• Before cleaning your gun, make absolutely sure that it is unloaded. The gun's action should be open during the cleaning process. Also, be sure that no ammunition is present in the cleaning area.
• ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
• When it comes time to pull that trigger, point the gun in a direction that would be safe to fire the gun. What you're aiming at should be able to safely take a bullet.

 

[Sam1911]

So how am I supposed to clean my glock?

If it is always loaded then pulling the trigger (required to clean a glock) will discharge a round.

Every time this thread comes up, some smart fellow has to come post this line.

So, when you've cleared your Glock and you're going to clean it, do you go get your wife or kids to stand in front of it while you pull the trigger? Point it at your own head? If so, soon we'll have one less guy around to post that comment!

No, no, of course not. You point it in a SAFE direction. And, it's in your control. You just cleared it (right?), and you're controlling the muzzle direction while you dry fire it (right?) so you're minimizing the risk as well as minimizing the potential damage caused by skipping a step (like ejecting that live round).

So, with the exception of the required pulling of the trigger, you're STILL treating it in a safe manner -- as a loaded gun.

Now, this thread is about guns in OTHER folk's hands, OUT of your control, possibly loaded (as the O.P. shows), and in fact, generally unfamiliar to the person holding it. So what does the fact that you have to depress the trigger of your Glock while you're cleaning it, in your safe area have to do with the proper handling of firearms in a gun store?

-Sam

 

[glockdriver]

targeting

I knew a shop that had a standard bullseye target mounted up in the top corner of the shop . Hand guns were checked by the store clerk before it was handed to you, slide open, mag checked or removed and then you were told to use the mounted target to aim at

 

[rondog]

That was my first thought about the OP, that "somebody" may have loaded a live round into the rifle and put it back on the rack. Nothing like a good old fashioned shooting in a gun shop to get it closed down.

There's a lot of sickos in this world, like those who put poison in Tylenol bottles, or razor blades in Halloween apples, etc. We've all heard the stories. Who's to say an anti-gun group or activist wouldn't stoop to slipping live rounds into guns on accessible racks in gun stores? Of course, they'd have to know enough about guns in the first place to get the right cartridges in the right weapons.

 

[1911Tuner]

Every time this thread comes up, some smart fellow has to come post this line.

I agree, and then they come back and say something like:

Indeed.

But the gun is no longer loaded.

And it's picking nits and arguing technicalities simply for the sake of arguing...and it's a waste of bandwidth. So...I'm deleting the posts. We understand the meaning of the rule. I suspect that he does too.

 

[rhenriksen]

An old indoor range I used to frequent has a deep gouge in the aluminum framing around the acoustic ceiling tiles. Apparently a customer came in off the range with his pistol, and was sweeping the owner (who was behind the counter) while yaking. The owner said, 'Quit pointing that gun at me!!'.

Customer sez, 'Don't worry - it's not loaded!' Points it at the ceiling, and pulls the trigger. BANG! Bullet ricochets off the ceiling tile frame, goes through a wall into the workshop, and bounces off a couple of walls before stopping.

Owner threw the guy out, said to never come back.

Good thing it wasn't loaded!

 

[Landpimp]

I get the chance to go thru 1000's of agency evidence guns a year, these are all guns that come from agencys, have been cleared and sold to my friend, from NIB 1940's S&W's to piles of Ravens/Jennings etc and all kinds of odd crap we have found more than a few with a round in the chamber still!

 

[MikkOwl]

A reasonable rule for handling guns is that in regards to people other than yourself, your gun is always loaded. But if you inspect the barrel and you're satisfied and all that, by all means, sweep yourself

As for gun stores, the following points might alleviate the problem:

1. A few disclaimers/signs.
2. Store clerks always checking the firearm before handing to a customer (maybe they do that already? I've never been to a gun store in USA).
3. The store clerk keeping tabs on where the customer aims the thing, giving instant notice if they even begin to look like they are doing naughty things with the barrel.

The attitude needs to change a bit, be more 'duh!' and reinforced everywhere. Maybe get the message out more so even people who never shoots heard about these rules and how serious they are.

 

[1911Tuner]

Now then. Let's review the 4 rules. Paraphrased.

Yes. It's loaded, and until I see for myself that it's not loaded, it's always loaded.
If you tell me that it's not loaded, I won't believe you. If I tell you that it's not loaded, I don't expect you to believe me.

Don't point the gun at anything that you don't want shot. Especially, don't point it at me. I don't care if the safety is on. If you point it at me, I won't be kind.

The trigger is what makes the gun fire. If you want the gun to fire, pull the trigger. If you don't...Don't. Just that simple. If you pull the trigger without clearing the gun first, you must expect the gun to fire, and you must be prepared to accept the consequences if/when it does.

Don't fire unless you're sure that you want whatever the gun is pointed at to be shot...and that if you miss or shoot through that which you want shot...that you won't hit something else that you don't want shot. If you're firing in self defense, and you notice a child directly behind your attacker...don't shoot. Never shoot at a sound or a form...no matter how scared you are...unless you're 101% sure that the form presents a threat to you by refusing to advance and be recognized.

 

[jad0110]

It is why I cringed when I heard about them making computerized automatic braking using sensors in some vehicles. I couldn't help but think "Well now numerous idiots will simply expect the computer to brake for them most of the time". Of course the consequences of that are clear.

Yep, I was thinking the same thing the other day. These numerous idiots may also hop into another car, forgetting it doesn't have the automatic self-applying brakes for mind-numb moron feature, plowing into the back of the car in front of them.

It's as if a whole segment of the population has decided that thinking is too hard, especially now that the nanny state is "thinking" more for them as each day passes. Sad.

As for getting swept, it happens all too often in my area, but at least most of the employees of gunshops I frequent open the action before handing the gun over. I return the courtesey when handing it back. Interestingly, I've observed better trigger and muzzle discipline among the younger shooters around here. Overall though, gun safety doesn't appear to be too high up on the list of priorities among gun owners in eastern NC. Here are just a few of the classics I've either witnessed or heard about:

1. Saw a lady shoot herself in the foot with a 22 during a CCW course; needless to say she didn't pass the class. Pointing the gun at your foot with your finger on the trigger when the gun slips down onto said trigger finger will do that every time.

2. Friend was at a local range with a fairly big crowd. A woman a few lanes down was shooting a pistol with 2nd srike capability (he didn't know what exactly) when suddenly she took a step or two backwards, complained "durr, it's not working" and proceeded to point the gun at the ceiling while cycling the trigger, with predictable results. The range officer was rushing her when a new whole appeared in the ceiling above. No one hurt, fortunately; she did get kicked out. Understandably, my friend and most of the other shooters had had enough excitment for one day and packed up and left. IIRC, she swept one side of the line before pointing the gun at the ceiling.

3. My CCW instructor related a story that happened back around 2000 when a show off with a shoulder holster did a quick draw during class. He got one warning, but Mr. Doofus went for his gun one more time ... and managed to pull the trigger while unholstering the weapon. The instructor said he heard and felt the bullet whiz a few inches past his ear.

4. Range employee I know told me about a guy who was shooting a autopistol of some sort when he had a FTF. First thing genius does is innocently peer down the barrel. Quick thinking by the guy next to him probably saved his life: he slapped the muzzle away just as the hangfire let loose. Another close one.

5. My coworker's husband was a member of a local hunting club. He was driving his truck down a dirt road when he came upon a good friend heading in the other direction. Both men pull their trucks to the side, leaving about a car width's room between them while they "shot the poop". As they were talking, a fairly young buck came out onto the road about 75 yards down the road. They watched him for a minute or two, just standing there when suddenly they heard a shot; at about that same moment the deer popped up and disappeared into the woods. Scared the mess out of them. Instinctively, they both turned their heads 180 degrees to see a nutjob standing in the middle of the road with his rifle about 75 yards in the other direction. Yep, this wacko fired a shot between the two trucks they were sitting in at a deer 150 yards away. Don't remember the words that were exchanged, but basically nutjob didn't understand what he had done wrong, afterall no one was hurt .

It cannot be said too often: You can't fix stupid.

 

[MikkOwl]

I don't know what the problem is exactly. Something intelligence related. Unable to foresee or account for what could happen (but has not yet happened), acting more on impulse, instinct and habit.

This is a problem for gun ownership, certainly. Perhaps gun ownership should require passing some reasonable class (with AWESOME magnum power, comes great responsibility ) in the same way drivers licensing works (just hopefully of muuuch higher quality),.

 

[LRaccuracy]

I walked into a gun shop (someplace in texas) in 1980 and asked to see a revolver in the display case. As always I checked the weapon to see if it was loaded. This time it paid off.. The revolver was loaded with a single round in the cylinder.

 

[KBintheSLC]

This is a problem for gun ownership, certainly. Perhaps gun ownership should require passing some reasonable class (with AWESOME magnum power, comes great responsibility ) in the same way drivers licensing works (just hopefully of muuuch higher quality),.

I understand your concern, but I disagree. Licensing schemes are not the answer. I don't know what your laws are in Sweden, but here in the USA, gun ownership is considered a fundamental right... it is not some special privilege reserved only for those who can pass some predetermined aptitude test.

Driving a car on the other hand is not a fundamental right in our book. When you say things like this... "just hopefully of muuuch higher quality"... remember that even though Americans have about the same number of guns as we do cars in our country (between 325 and 375 million of each - more guns than cars actually), car accident deaths are about 4 times higher than gun murders and accidental shootings combined. Automobile fatalities are now the #1 cause of death for people under 35 years of age.

In other words, gun licensing and driver licensing are two totally different games. They should not be intermingled. After all, we cannot remove the fibers of stupidity through legislations and bureaucracies. Gun licensing is merely a vessel for government control and potential tyranny. I would rather take my chances with the stupids.

 

[MikkOwl]

I've heard and read a lot about the quality of drivers education and the requirements for drivers licenses, and it is probably the worst I've heard of in the industrialized world. Americans start driving young (when judgment is still not developed) and with insufficient training. An attitude towards it comes as a result of that, and that is not taking it so seriously.. The amount of accidents is probably strongly correlated to this.

As for Sweden, gun culture here and laws, I wrote a post about it just yesterday. Have a look http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5755683&postcount=4084

Indeed, it is a right there. I understand that. I have this wish of having as many trained and qualified people out there with guns, with as few idiots who don't care or take it seriously as possible without. I heard many states require a permit for concealed carry, which means some kind of license to carry. That's not a bad idea in itself. But at the same time it sounds like almost no one has a license in those states, so society doesn't get the benefit widespread carry could bring. There's just too many states and regulations for a poor Swede to keep up with..

EDIT: There are regulations in place. Criminals cannot legally own firearms (in some places at least), restricted areas for carry, etc. So the right is already being infringed, but for good reasons at the same time (in the case of hardcore criminals, oh and mentally ill too?)

EDIT 2: I'd love to look into how well an armed vs not so armed populace can fight an increasingly sneaky malfunctioning government. In many ways I think the US gov is there already. One of the main problems is organizing resistance, and the second one is being inferior in equipment to organizations such as law enforcement and military which do have very heavy weaponry and tactics.