My problem (as a person working in the industry) with GunBroker

[daniel craig]

So, as a person whose job it is to buy and sell guns I've noticed a trend in both buyers and sellers (but mostly people selling/trying to get us to buy their gun).

That trend is to look the gun up on GunBroker, take a cursory glance at the prices there and assume that is the worth of their firearm.

What I feel is part of the problem, and please, I'd like to start a civil discussion here, is that many people don't realize that GunBroker is a lot like eBay in that a seller can ask literally any price he/she/they feel like BUT that DOESN'T mean the seller will actually fetch that price. I think a lot of people who use GunBroker to find a value for their gun don't take this into consideration and assume that a seller's asking price must be what the guns are currently going for without digging further to see what the guns actually consistently SELL for.

What that further compounds the issue is people don't realize that in order to re-sell a gun at what it's worth (and at a fair enough price to move the inventory in a reasonable amount of time) the seller is going to, naturally, offer less than a gun might be worth.

I think there's a shift that needs to happen and it starts with the proper use of sites like GunBroker (it's only one aspect of the disconnect between buyers and sellers but I think it plays a large part).

What's your take?

 

[BearBrimstone]

I blame stores like Bass Pro for a big part of this as well. Someone that made the mistake of paying $1100 for a Sig p226 today at Bass Pro is going to think they can get something like that back out of it when they sell not realizing that online retailers recently had the same gun for under $600 new.

 

[solman]

Yes you raised a good point and one that I realized a long time ago. What you see listed on the for sale sites online is what didn't sell. Be it E bay gun broker or the myriad of for sale sites out there. What you need to do is look up recent past sale prices to get an idea of true market value.

 

[Aim1]

A poster on here showed me how to use the "Completed" items search on Gunbrokerm.com and it gives you a more accurate idea of what guns are actually being sold for vs. asking price.

Very nice to have, never knew about it until that THR poster advised me on it.

 

[somethingbenign]

While I'm not an active seller of guns this trend is the primary reason I stopped going to gun shows, just no deals to be had. I think another thing that sellers fail to take into account is the condition and historical significance of some of the guns listed online. Until this changes I intend to keep buying new unless what I'm after is discontinued. Shame really because so many lonely guns up for adoption locally. *Starts playing "In the Arms of an Angel"*

 

[huntsman]

Gun broker is skewing the market but credit cards enable impulse buys and over paying.

I noticed the used gun market started changing in the late nineties, the LGS who in the past was satisfied making a modest profit on a trade in all of sudden thought they were sitting on goldmines.

 

[daniel craig]

I blame stores like Bass Pro for a big part of this as well. Someone that made the mistake of paying $1100 for a Sig p226 today at Bass Pro is going to think they can get something like that back out of it when they sell not realizing that online retailers recently had the same gun for under $600 new.

That and guns depreciate in value the way cars do, perhaps even worse.

 

[AlexanderA]

While I'm not an active seller of guns this trend is the primary reason I stopped going to gun shows, just no deals to be had.

I think that large gun shows can be an excellent indication of what guns are worth, particularly new guns. For used and collectible guns, a little bargaining might be necessary to determine the true value, and some outlier sellers (regular gun show attendees know who they are) can be ignored altogether. Competition at venues like that tends to hold down prices. That said, some people still go to gun shows expecting to find "steals" rather than "deals." Such people are bound to come away disappointed.

 

[daniel craig]

While I'm not an active seller of guns this trend is the primary reason I stopped going to gun shows, just no deals to be had. I think another thing that sellers fail to take into account is the condition and historical significance of some of the guns listed online. Until this changes I intend to keep buying new unless what I'm after is discontinued. Shame really because so many lonely guns up for adoption locally. *Starts playing "In the Arms of an Angel"*

It's hard for a lot of smaller sellers because they HAVE to make a profit. What they don't realize is that deals move inventory and you often make more profit selling at a deal/near loss than you do by not selling at all.

 

[daniel craig]

Gun broker is skewing the market but credit cards enable impulse buys and over paying.

I noticed the used gun market started changing in the late nineties, the LGS who in the past was satisfied making a modest profit on a trade in all of sudden thought they were sitting on goldmines.

And made owners think that too. I'm sorry, but a near budget (at the time) gun made by the millions isn't a deal just because it's 20-50 years old.

 

[buck460XVR]

I think there's a shift that needs to happen and it starts with the proper use of sites like GunBroker (it's only one aspect of the disconnect between buyers and sellers but I think it plays a large part).

What's your take?

My take is this:

While you are correct, that folks should list at the selling price of guns and not the asking price, this is not Gunbrokers fault. While the prices sometimes asked on Gunbroker are high, when the gun doesn't sell, who's left with the gun? Nuttin, really lost but some bandwidth. Sometimes sellers just feel folks out. If it don't sell the first time out, they just keep lowering the price till it sells. Now as for getting an approximate value of what you gun is worth, the internet is a good place to get a feel, as long as folks look in the right spots.

Not everyone is a gun nut and knows what their gun is worth. Old farts like me that bought guns when they were kids sometimes don't know how much they have appreciated. Folks unfamiliar with guns generally don't know the difference between a Taurus revolver and a S&W revolver. To them, it looks the same, so they must be worth the same. Many also don't know how important condition and availability mean. You still hear those stories about someone's buddie's Great aunt trying to sell her late husband's pristine 1957 Python and asking $200. If she was lucky she ran into a honest person first and he set her straight. If she wasn't lucky, she got snookered and odds are the buyer is bragging about it on Facebook. Things is, there is no easy and readily available place for most folks to get a gun appraised as to it's real value. Not a seller's price and not a buyer's price, not replacement value for insurance purposes, but actual value. Over the years, I've seen to many folks lowballed at gun shops. Seen a argument just a few weeks back between a clerk at the LGS and another customer that tried to help someone out that was getting lowballed on a really nice model 19. The clerk offered $250 and the other customer, told the owner, he would give him $500. This is one reason I see such a dislike from gun shops for sites like Gunbroker, that sell used guns, because at one time, those dealers could offer basically whatever they wanted to....take it or leave it. Had more than one gun shop tell me they didn't make any money on new guns....it was used gun that made them money. Now, I'm not saying that all gunshops lowball their customers, cause I know of several that are very honest. They tell the customer up front what price they are going to put on it when it hits the shelf. Then the owner can decide if that price offered to him is fair or not.

 

[1942bull]

It is a problem of human nature and fantasy. By no means does this apply to informed gun buyers and sellers.

A person who wants to buy a gun is often driven by impulse and impatience. Getting the desired gun begins takes prominence over discipline. It is what psychologists call "instant gratification." The desire to possess overtakes the common sense of making a good deal. Tis would likely be most true for first time gun buyers.

A person who wants to sell a gun knows the transactional price is going to be less than the original purchase price of t he gun. So the seller tries to prove the gun is worth the asking price. The seller knows he is going to take a loss, but wants to limit that loss. Consider this aspect of human nature. No one want to take a loss. So it is not uncommon that sellers do anything to try to limit a loss even though they might realize that their method is unrealistic.

Having run a business for decades I know the formula for success: Revenues minus Expenses = Profit. No profit means no business. So I know that if a dealer buys from me he has to make a profit. So he is not going to offer me market value as a payment. He will have to sell the gun at 60 to 80 percent of new market value. He will have the expenses of inventorying and marketing so he has to recover those expanses plus to make a profit. so he is likely to be willing to pay about 40% or less of the guns new market value.

That is why have sold a gun to a dealer. I only sell directly to individuals. I am not impatient to sell but I know many are impatient to buy.

 

[edwardware]

In addition to all of the above: firearm purchases are general much more emotional/ego-driven than almost any other discretionary purchase (other than cars). That greatly distorts the market, especially newbie sellers asking prices.

 

[WestKentucky]

I’m looking for a birdshead heritage 22lr/22 mag. Needless to say I didn’t slip up and buy the one listed for $1699.99. I think they meant 169.99 but whatever. It’s easy to make a typo. Similarly I have watched an arisaka t38 sporter easily worth its $200 asking price sit untouched because it’s in Alaska and they want way too much to shop it to the lower 48. I tend to think people make mistakes on listings. I really don’t like the thought that people may be intentionally putting things out there hoping others make a mistake. An extra 9 in that heritage revolver multiplies the price to a point nobody would consider it and hopefully they will avoid it at all costs. The arisaka though, I almost feel like it may be a game of hoping somebody falls for the buy-it-now price just to get slammed with overpriced shipping fees.

 

[Texas10mm]

I always use the Advanced search Completed function on Gunbroker.

That way you can actually see what stuff is selling for.

I've found some really good deals on GB on new old stock. I paid $575 delivered for my NIB XDM 45 Competition last year.

I know that stores need to make a profit. However I've witnessed way too many stores offering pennies on the dollars for used firearms, then if the seller accepts it the store selling the gun for 2-5X what they paid.

There are some people who grossly overpay for a firearm then are shocked when it loses 50% or more of it's value when it walks out the door.

I rarely buy a firearm from a retail store anymore. GrabAGun is an hour away. If I can save $100 or more driving an hour each way I will. The market has changed. Some retail stores need to realize that.

 

[Wishoot]

I peruse Armslist a couple times a day. It seems to me that there are A LOT of people that expect to get 100% of the full retail price they paid for a non-collectible firearm.

 

[Texas10mm]

I peruse Armslist a couple times a day. It seems to me that there are A LOT of people that expect to get 100% of the full retail price they paid for a non-collectible firearm.

What's the saying...Wish in one hand and s**t in the other and see which one fills up first.

 

[daniel craig]

My take is this:

While you are correct, that folks should list at the selling price of guns and not the asking price, this is not Gunbrokers fault. While the prices sometimes asked on Gunbroker are high, when the gun doesn't sell, who's left with the gun? Nuttin, really lost but some bandwidth. Sometimes sellers just feel folks out. If it don't sell the first time out, they just keep lowering the price till it sells. Now as for getting an approximate value of what you gun is worth, the internet is a good place to get a feel, as long as folks look in the right spots.

Not everyone is a gun nut and knows what their gun is worth. Old farts like me that bought guns when they were kids sometimes don't know how much they have appreciated. Folks unfamiliar with guns generally don't know the difference between a Taurus revolver and a S&W revolver. To them, it looks the same, so they must be worth the same. Many also don't know how important condition and availability mean. You still hear those stories about someone's buddie's Great aunt trying to sell her late husband's pristine 1957 Python and asking $200. If she was lucky she ran into a honest person first and he set her straight. If she wasn't lucky, she got snookered and odds are the buyer is bragging about it on Facebook. Things is, there is no easy and readily available place for most folks to get a gun appraised as to it's real value. Not a seller's price and not a buyer's price, not replacement value for insurance purposes, but actual value. Over the years, I've seen to many folks lowballed at gun shops. Seen a argument just a few weeks back between a clerk at the LGS and another customer that tried to help someone out that was getting lowballed on a really nice model 19. The clerk offered $250 and the other customer, told the owner, he would give him $500. This is one reason I see such a dislike from gun shops for sites like Gunbroker, that sell used guns, because at one time, those dealers could offer basically whatever they wanted to....take it or leave it. Had more than one gun shop tell me they didn't make any money on new guns....it was used gun that made them money. Now, I'm not saying that all gunshops lowball their customers, cause I know of several that are very honest. They tell the customer up front what price they are going to put on it when it hits the shelf. Then the owner can decide if that price offered to him is fair or not.

Well, see while it may be a low ball from the LGS that guy has to try to turn and resell the gun, the other guy doesn't. If the LGS bought at $500 like the other guy he'd have to try and sell for MORE than that and run the risk of not selling at all (and thereby, losing $500). People don't see the difference between involving a middle man and selling directly to the end user and that is why you'll almost always get less when selling to a gun shop.

 

[daniel craig]

It is a problem of human nature and fantasy. By no means does this apply to informed gun buyers and sellers.

A person who wants to buy a gun is often driven by impulse and impatience. Getting the desired gun begins takes prominence over discipline. It is what psychologists call "instant gratification." The desire to possess overtakes the common sense of making a good deal. Tis would likely be most true for first time gun buyers.

A person who wants to sell a gun knows the transactional price is going to be less than the original purchase price of t he gun. So the seller tries to prove the gun is worth the asking price. The seller knows he is going to take a loss, but wants to limit that loss. Consider this aspect of human nature. No one want to take a loss. So it is not uncommon that sellers do anything to try to limit a loss even though they might realize that their method is unrealistic.

Having run a business for decades I know the formula for success: Revenues minus Expenses = Profit. No profit means no business. So I know that if a dealer buys from me he has to make a profit. So he is not going to offer me market value as a payment. He will have to sell the gun at 60 to 80 percent of new market value. He will have the expenses of inventorying and marketing so he has to recover those expanses plus to make a profit. so he is likely to be willing to pay about 40% or less of the guns new market value.

That is why have sold a gun to a dealer. I only sell directly to individuals. I am not impatient to sell but I know many are impatient to buy.

Bingo

 

[daniel craig]

I always use the Advanced search Completed function on Gunbroker.

That way you can actually see what stuff is selling for.

I've found some really good deals on GB on new old stock. I paid $575 delivered for my NIB XDM 45 Competition last year.

I know that stores need to make a profit. However I've witnessed way too many stores offering pennies on the dollars for used firearms, then if the seller accepts it the store selling the gun for 2-5X what they paid.

There are some people who grossly overpay for a firearm then are shocked when it loses 50% or more of it's value when it walks out the door.

I rarely buy a firearm from a retail store anymore. GrabAGun is an hour away. If I can save $100 or more driving an hour each way I will. The market has changed. Some retail stores need to realize that.

the problem I saw is that no one wants to buy a used gun unless they can get it really really cheap or unless it's super super rare so in order for a store to sell it really really cheap that have to buy it really really cheap.

 

[Texas10mm]

the problem I saw is that no one wants to buy a used gun unless they can get it really really cheap or unless it's super super rare so in order for a store to sell it really really cheap that have to buy it really really cheap.

I buy a lot of used guns. I use Gunbroker to research prices. I do realize that if I'm selling a gun to a retailer that I'm going to take a hit. That's why I never sell to a retailer.

 

[daniel craig]

I buy a lot of used guns. I use Gunbroker to research prices. I do realize that if I'm selling a gun to a retailer that I'm going to take a hit. That's why I never sell to a retailer.

Good plan

 

[rodinal220]

Its an age old problem of asking price versus selling price. "you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink" You can first try to very politely explain how things really work and then if that doesn't work very politely tell them if they feel they can get that price sell it on GB.

 

[entropy]

So, as a person whose job it is to buy and sell guns I've noticed a trend in both buyers and sellers (but mostly people selling/trying to get us to buy their gun).

That trend is to look the gun up on GunBroker, take a cursory glance at the prices there and assume that is the worth of their firearm.

What I feel is part of the problem, and please, I'd like to start a civil discussion here, is that many people don't realize that GunBroker is a lot like eBay in that a seller can ask literally any price he/she/they feel like BUT that DOESN'T mean the seller will actually fetch that price. I think a lot of people who use GunBroker to find a value for their gun don't take this into consideration and assume that a seller's asking price must be what the guns are currently going for without digging further to see what the guns actually consistently SELL for.

What that further compounds the issue is people don't realize that in order to re-sell a gun at what it's worth (and at a fair enough price to move the inventory in a reasonable amount of time) the seller is going to, naturally, offer less than a gun might be worth.

I think there's a shift that needs to happen and it starts with the proper use of sites like GunBroker (it's only one aspect of the disconnect between buyers and sellers but I think it plays a large part).

What's your take?

This is why we look up the actual recently finished auctions. With the exception of guns like Pythons and such, they usually actually go for sensible prices.

 

[daniel craig]

Its an age old problem of asking price versus selling price. "you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink" You can first try to very politely explain how things really work and then if that doesn't work very politely tell them if they feel they can get that price sell it on GB.

Honestly, that's what we usually STARTED with, telling them they can get a better price online. Turns out, most people are either desperate enough for the cash that they can't wait, they're technologically illiterate, or they don't want to deal with the hassle of meeting the buyer at a gun store (even though they're here... At the FFL) for an FFL check (it's NY).