CountGlockula
Member
Having deep convictions or strong religious belief allows you to not fear ANYTHING, but your maker.
I am armed because of the sport and to challenge anyone who threatens my family or my lilfe.
Just my opinion.
Pagan gun owners
- Thread starter Whitewolf 508
- Start date
- Status
Having deep convictions or strong religious belief allows you to not fear ANYTHING, but your maker.
I am armed because of the sport and to challenge anyone who threatens my family or my lilfe.
Just my opinion.
Beatnik
Member
Well, I'm coming from the other side, and this is going to sound like it's veering OT for a minute, bear with me.
Nothing in a debate involving religion gets my ire more than this claim:
"Well, I'm X, but I'm totally cool with you being Y."
Well, I'm not. I believe in truth, and above that, I believe in absolute truth. I believe that the absolute truth exists quite outside my opinions or how I feel about it - and that it exists quite outside your opinions or how you feel about it. I believe that catering to what you should consider to be absolutely false is an indication that you don't believe what you say you believe.
I also believe that this truth transcends how any of us feel about being armed.
I also realize that people who believe these things, or at least pay lip service to them, are in the majority in this country.
One further thing I believe - the linchpin here - is that absolutely no good can be done by trying to coerce people to believe these things. You can't force someone to believe something - you can only enslave their bodies, not their hearts and minds.
Christianity teaches that it is in the nature of man to try to dominate his neighbor. It also teaches that it's wrong - yet we still do it. I know this, and I know the best way around it.
It is vitally important that not just Pagans, but all non-Christians arm themselves.
Choice - Liberty - is what makes it possible to even seek truth to begin with.
Without liberty, truth is merely what you have been told. Without arms, there is no liberty.
Nothing in a debate involving religion gets my ire more than this claim:
"Well, I'm X, but I'm totally cool with you being Y."
Well, I'm not. I believe in truth, and above that, I believe in absolute truth. I believe that the absolute truth exists quite outside my opinions or how I feel about it - and that it exists quite outside your opinions or how you feel about it. I believe that catering to what you should consider to be absolutely false is an indication that you don't believe what you say you believe.
I also believe that this truth transcends how any of us feel about being armed.
I also realize that people who believe these things, or at least pay lip service to them, are in the majority in this country.
One further thing I believe - the linchpin here - is that absolutely no good can be done by trying to coerce people to believe these things. You can't force someone to believe something - you can only enslave their bodies, not their hearts and minds.
Christianity teaches that it is in the nature of man to try to dominate his neighbor. It also teaches that it's wrong - yet we still do it. I know this, and I know the best way around it.
It is vitally important that not just Pagans, but all non-Christians arm themselves.
Choice - Liberty - is what makes it possible to even seek truth to begin with.
Without liberty, truth is merely what you have been told. Without arms, there is no liberty.
No_Brakes23
Member
Thank You, Pax
When I was a young extreme fundamentalist Christian, I felt the need to to arm myself against an imagined unsaved horde of teeth gnashing servants of the beast, (That is a reflection on my upbringing, not Christianity in general.)
When I considered myself a pagan, I was so brazen and outspoken that I couldn't concieve of someone denying my rights by force. (Playing Braveheart with pikes every weekend at the Ren Faire can sometimes have you believing you are bigger and badder than you really are.)
By the time I realized a resurgent popularity of neo goth culture and all things Celtic in the 90's did not equate to widespread acceptance of pagan beliefs, I had already drifted away from them into a more agnostic, (Or apathetic aetheist, if you will,) state of mind. One priviledge of agnosticism/atheism is that one is not required to proselitize or be outspoken about one's beliefs, (Though many atheists choose to waive that right.) So, other than a lack of attendance at church, I have litte to no outward indication of non-compliance with local custom.
I presently feel no need to exercise my RtK&BA to defend my religious views.
One could argue that the radical proponents of Sharia law, (And it's counterparts in other belief systems,) are a threat to our freedom. But that remains a primarily idealogical threat on our soil at this point, and is not really served by carriage of arms.
Furthermore, thought control and narrow-minded groups seeking to enforce their views on the rest of us are not exclusive to religious groups. While we might not have to bring arms to bear against those folks, we must remain vigilant to their encroaching ways.
When I was a young extreme fundamentalist Christian, I felt the need to to arm myself against an imagined unsaved horde of teeth gnashing servants of the beast, (That is a reflection on my upbringing, not Christianity in general.)
When I considered myself a pagan, I was so brazen and outspoken that I couldn't concieve of someone denying my rights by force. (Playing Braveheart with pikes every weekend at the Ren Faire can sometimes have you believing you are bigger and badder than you really are.)
By the time I realized a resurgent popularity of neo goth culture and all things Celtic in the 90's did not equate to widespread acceptance of pagan beliefs, I had already drifted away from them into a more agnostic, (Or apathetic aetheist, if you will,) state of mind. One priviledge of agnosticism/atheism is that one is not required to proselitize or be outspoken about one's beliefs, (Though many atheists choose to waive that right.) So, other than a lack of attendance at church, I have litte to no outward indication of non-compliance with local custom.
I presently feel no need to exercise my RtK&BA to defend my religious views.
One could argue that the radical proponents of Sharia law, (And it's counterparts in other belief systems,) are a threat to our freedom. But that remains a primarily idealogical threat on our soil at this point, and is not really served by carriage of arms.
Furthermore, thought control and narrow-minded groups seeking to enforce their views on the rest of us are not exclusive to religious groups. While we might not have to bring arms to bear against those folks, we must remain vigilant to their encroaching ways.
LubeckTech
Member
Ironically groups like the NAACP and many gay organizations are anti-gun which does not make sense as they have suffered persecution and are a target for such.
SolaScriptura139
Member
I do not carry as a result of my faith, nor do I find any conflict between the two. I feel that as a husband and a father, God has charged me with the protection of my family. Carrying a gun has actually helped improve my state of mind outside the home. I constantly have to worry about how I portray myself (which I probably should have the same motivation as a Christian).
I don't feel fear in the sense of myself being harmed for my faith. If someone wants to kill me because I'm a Christian, so be it, God will be glorified by my endurance and faithfulness. History is wrought with Christians being persecuted, even to death (and many times by her own church), and I accepted that that could happen to me when I became a Christian three years ago (the Middle East and North Africa being good modern examples of such persecution).
I've read many times that "turning the other cheek" was meant as a form of civil disobedience. In the ancient world, if you slapped a person with the back of your hand, it was meant as an insult, saying that the person was sub-human. If you turned your cheek, the person would have to slap you with the inside of the hand, which signified, "you may strike me, but only as an equal."
I don't feel fear in the sense of myself being harmed for my faith. If someone wants to kill me because I'm a Christian, so be it, God will be glorified by my endurance and faithfulness. History is wrought with Christians being persecuted, even to death (and many times by her own church), and I accepted that that could happen to me when I became a Christian three years ago (the Middle East and North Africa being good modern examples of such persecution).
I've read many times that "turning the other cheek" was meant as a form of civil disobedience. In the ancient world, if you slapped a person with the back of your hand, it was meant as an insult, saying that the person was sub-human. If you turned your cheek, the person would have to slap you with the inside of the hand, which signified, "you may strike me, but only as an equal."
I'm an agnostic and most of my friends tend to share my beliefs or have a vague belief in some sort of God. I honestly can't think of one close friend of mine who is a follower of any particular school of religion. Now that I think about it, it is a bit odd. Perhaps I hang out with too much of a "secular progressive" crowd.
Anyways, my beliefs made no contribution to my decision to own firearms. But after seeing poll after poll showing how much animosity Americans feel towards atheists/agnostics (we have the honor of being the most distrusted and hated "religious" belief), perhaps it should in the future.
Anyways, my beliefs made no contribution to my decision to own firearms. But after seeing poll after poll showing how much animosity Americans feel towards atheists/agnostics (we have the honor of being the most distrusted and hated "religious" belief), perhaps it should in the future.
Sindawe
Member
For me as well.
I guess I've been fortunate in never encountering open hostility as a result of my faith, not that I take pains to hide it from others. I don't flaunt it either, unless one considers the open display of Mjölnir to be flaunting it. For me, its on the same level as Christians wearing a gold cross.
ugaarguy
Member
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2006
- Messages
- 13,828
I'm not armed because of fear of persecution, though I have certainly been harassed, not for my beliefs as a Christian, but for practicing them.
I am armed because I am a free man. A free man should exercise his right to be armed to resist those who wish to do him or others harm; and in the extreme case to resist tyranny from the government.
Sadly human nature is to belong to a group and groups wish to exert superiority over other groups. Unfortunately we also use religion as a way to define "us" and "them" rather than being respectful of each other's choice. Religious persecution is one of many pretenses for violence that a free man should be armed to resist.
plexreticle
Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2006
- Messages
- 1,240
My religious beliefs are no more anyones business than the guns I own.
axeman_g
Member
please see my sig.
I am RevDeadCorpse seem to see eye to eye on this issue.
In my beliefs it is a person responsibility to defend their family and themseleves. Stone, Spear, Axe or 1911... tool does not matter it is decided upon by the times.
I am RevDeadCorpse seem to see eye to eye on this issue.
In my beliefs it is a person responsibility to defend their family and themseleves. Stone, Spear, Axe or 1911... tool does not matter it is decided upon by the times.
hrgrisso
Member
Religion and Guns
I am not a pagan (although some might consider me otherwise
)
I am not a fundamentalist christian (some might consider me otherwise)
I belong to the LDS church, i.e. the Mormons (eeek
)
The one religous group (to my knowledge) to have state sanctioned violence ordered against them from an political executive.
So naturally, my forebears armed themselves to resist and protect their family.
Then my grandfathers headed south from Utah to Az and ended up being attacked by Geronimo. And they used their arms to protect their families.
A generation later my next great grandfather tried to stay out of the Sheep/Cattle wars of Az/NM (i.e. Billy the Kids birthplace).
My Great Grandfather was given his first handgun/rifle at 8years old to defend himself herding sheep.
My Father carried his 1911 from WW2 after the war to protect himself and his family during a few rough times.
All this roundabout talk returns to this. The constitution protects a persons beliefs be it in Creationism, Darwinism, Cristianity, The Man on the moon (sorry if there is a religion that preaches that, I was unaware), the prince of darkness, or Allah. Just don't hurt/harm anyone else.
I truly believe that.
I carry/use arms to protect myself and my family. I don't out of fear (thread topic)
If it comes right down to it, I don't care if a person is doing it because I'm Mormon (or scandanavia, or independent voter). I'll do my best to be standing when the smoke clears, and to ensure my family is standing as well.
And as long as your not harming someone to instigate something;
You and yours should be standing too!
Do whatever is necessary to ensure that.
We all should and I think that's why we are here...
(BY THE WAY, SORRY THIS POST TURNED INTO SUCH A LONG BORING THING)
I am not a pagan (although some might consider me otherwise
) I am not a fundamentalist christian (some might consider me otherwise
)I belong to the LDS church, i.e. the Mormons (eeek
)The one religous group (to my knowledge) to have state sanctioned violence ordered against them from an political executive.
So naturally, my forebears armed themselves to resist and protect their family.
Then my grandfathers headed south from Utah to Az and ended up being attacked by Geronimo. And they used their arms to protect their families.
A generation later my next great grandfather tried to stay out of the Sheep/Cattle wars of Az/NM (i.e. Billy the Kids birthplace).
My Great Grandfather was given his first handgun/rifle at 8years old to defend himself herding sheep.
My Father carried his 1911 from WW2 after the war to protect himself and his family during a few rough times.
All this roundabout talk returns to this. The constitution protects a persons beliefs be it in Creationism, Darwinism, Cristianity, The Man on the moon (sorry if there is a religion that preaches that, I was unaware), the prince of darkness, or Allah. Just don't hurt/harm anyone else.
I truly believe that.
I carry/use arms to protect myself and my family. I don't out of fear (thread topic)
If it comes right down to it, I don't care if a person is doing it because I'm Mormon (or scandanavia, or independent voter). I'll do my best to be standing when the smoke clears, and to ensure my family is standing as well.
And as long as your not harming someone to instigate something;
You and yours should be standing too!
Do whatever is necessary to ensure that.
We all should and I think that's why we are here...
(BY THE WAY, SORRY THIS POST TURNED INTO SUCH A LONG BORING THING)
Whitewolf 508
Member
Unfortunately, there are many people who look for a reason to hate and do violence to others. Some do it out of greed such as the robber, some do it out of just plain meaness, and some for thrills.
As a husband and a father, I am obligated to protect my family. As the main provider, I know what my family would go through economically if I am not there. So I am also obligated to protect my self.
"Harm None" is a rather fluffy bunny way of looking at things and my personal belief is that it does not work. I would not seek nor do I believe that the majority on this forum would seek willingly to harm another person. Someone that attacks me brings down on themself whatever happens to them.
I heard a story of a group of fools that got rumor of a pagan gathering down in Texas 5 years ago and decided they were going to kick some Wiccan butt and enjoy the "skyclad" women's favors-willingly or non willingly. The problem was that it was not a bunch of wiccans. It was a group ou Asatruers that had some very sharp ritual swords and spears. Guess who got the worst of it.
As a husband and a father, I am obligated to protect my family. As the main provider, I know what my family would go through economically if I am not there. So I am also obligated to protect my self.
"Harm None" is a rather fluffy bunny way of looking at things and my personal belief is that it does not work. I would not seek nor do I believe that the majority on this forum would seek willingly to harm another person. Someone that attacks me brings down on themself whatever happens to them.
I heard a story of a group of fools that got rumor of a pagan gathering down in Texas 5 years ago and decided they were going to kick some Wiccan butt and enjoy the "skyclad" women's favors-willingly or non willingly. The problem was that it was not a bunch of wiccans. It was a group ou Asatruers that had some very sharp ritual swords and spears. Guess who got the worst of it.
sm
member
Belief
Allow me to use the word Belief in the context of one belonging to a particular Religious sect, Not belonging to one, or those that have no leanings to anything.
To me, what one "truly" believes comes from within. Call it "inner self" or anything else one chooses, still my point is , one can be a member of a Organized Belief System, Not a member of a Belief system or have no leanings toward any of this and - each individual within themselves will "disagree" with some "doctrines" associated with the accepted "thinking" of these Beliefs.
Religion "X" and folks are not going to agree with all the doctrines. One reason many other Sects started from other Sects [broke off, split, etc] was simply the interpretations differed on doctrines.
Atheist and Agnostics are "Belief systems" if you will. These systems also have members that interpret for themselves different from other of same Belief.
Belief Systems should not enter into some activities of daily living. Period.
To me, the reality is, one is often more "attracted" to something, including a Belief system by members of that Belief system in how they actually live and carry out activities of daily living [ADLs] more than what is "preached", "said" , or "sung".
I do not care one whit what one's Belief system is, is not, or they have no learnings. I respect them.
Just as I do with Race, Creed, or Culture. Freedom, Human Rights and all "we" are supposed to be about, should not let any of these get in the way of Preserving Freedom.
Respect, Common Courtesy, Common Sense should dictate how one carries themselves in ADLs and and treats others in ADLs.
If someone's belief system has a doctrine they leave early on Friday to observe the Sabbath, respect it.
If someone's belief system has a doctrine that if in the OR they are not to have the Cell Saver used - respect it.
Common Sense just needs to be applied to Life and ADLs.
Forefathers came to America to flee Tyranny . Forefathers fought and won Freedom. On parchment they wrote and outlined a Republic. Freedom.
Includes Belief systems, race, creed and culture.
The USA started out as "melting pot" if you will and has continued to be. The US still welcomes those of different Beliefs, races, creeds and cultures.
We speak of gun owners dividing themselves, doing more harm than Gun Grabbers.
In the same context when we bash, trash, talk down and everything else another's belief system, race, creed and culture - no matter the reason, or the topic - WE The People divide ourselves and give Tyranny more tools to divide WE The People more.
Glock vs 1911, 9mm vs 45ACP, Hunters, 3 Gunners, Belief "X", vs Non-Belief vs No Belief Leanings.
United vs Divided - this should the gut wrenching question we ask ourselves and answer with brutal honesty.
Allow me to use the word Belief in the context of one belonging to a particular Religious sect, Not belonging to one, or those that have no leanings to anything.
To me, what one "truly" believes comes from within. Call it "inner self" or anything else one chooses, still my point is , one can be a member of a Organized Belief System, Not a member of a Belief system or have no leanings toward any of this and - each individual within themselves will "disagree" with some "doctrines" associated with the accepted "thinking" of these Beliefs.
Religion "X" and folks are not going to agree with all the doctrines. One reason many other Sects started from other Sects [broke off, split, etc] was simply the interpretations differed on doctrines.
Atheist and Agnostics are "Belief systems" if you will. These systems also have members that interpret for themselves different from other of same Belief.
Belief Systems should not enter into some activities of daily living. Period.
To me, the reality is, one is often more "attracted" to something, including a Belief system by members of that Belief system in how they actually live and carry out activities of daily living [ADLs] more than what is "preached", "said" , or "sung".
I do not care one whit what one's Belief system is, is not, or they have no learnings. I respect them.
Just as I do with Race, Creed, or Culture. Freedom, Human Rights and all "we" are supposed to be about, should not let any of these get in the way of Preserving Freedom.
Respect, Common Courtesy, Common Sense should dictate how one carries themselves in ADLs and and treats others in ADLs.
If someone's belief system has a doctrine they leave early on Friday to observe the Sabbath, respect it.
If someone's belief system has a doctrine that if in the OR they are not to have the Cell Saver used - respect it.
Common Sense just needs to be applied to Life and ADLs.
Forefathers came to America to flee Tyranny . Forefathers fought and won Freedom. On parchment they wrote and outlined a Republic. Freedom.
Includes Belief systems, race, creed and culture.
The USA started out as "melting pot" if you will and has continued to be. The US still welcomes those of different Beliefs, races, creeds and cultures.
We speak of gun owners dividing themselves, doing more harm than Gun Grabbers.
In the same context when we bash, trash, talk down and everything else another's belief system, race, creed and culture - no matter the reason, or the topic - WE The People divide ourselves and give Tyranny more tools to divide WE The People more.
Glock vs 1911, 9mm vs 45ACP, Hunters, 3 Gunners, Belief "X", vs Non-Belief vs No Belief Leanings.
United vs Divided - this should the gut wrenching question we ask ourselves and answer with brutal honesty.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
Gee, this is such a rich thread.... thanks for those great rules, Pax!
Can't blame you for being prickly about it, considering the Burning Times, etc, etc, etc ad infinitum, even unto this very day and hour.
I know of at least one Pentagram-Carrying Pagan who is armed all the time with hir Paganism being about a 20% factor in the decision to CCW. In addition, s/he tells me, the SHTF scenario may not involve merely hurricanes or collapse of dot-gov services, but pitchforks and torches.
Blessed be, and may the Circle be open.
('Scuse me, I gotta go and pray to St. Anthony, Patron Saint of Lost Articles, 'cause I can't find my Athame.)
Can't blame you for being prickly about it, considering the Burning Times, etc, etc, etc ad infinitum, even unto this very day and hour.
I know of at least one Pentagram-Carrying Pagan who is armed all the time with hir Paganism being about a 20% factor in the decision to CCW. In addition, s/he tells me, the SHTF scenario may not involve merely hurricanes or collapse of dot-gov services, but pitchforks and torches.
Blessed be, and may the Circle be open.
('Scuse me, I gotta go and pray to St. Anthony, Patron Saint of Lost Articles, 'cause I can't find my Athame.)
MrPeter
Member
It seems like you are suggesting to people that they should not be 'totally cool' with someone else having different beliefs than you. What do you suggest they do? Should I verbally assault everyone I see with some kind of religous identifier with piles of reasons why their religon is incorrect? Should we take a step further and demand that they renounce their religon immediately on pain of death? Or maybe we should just disassociate with anyone who is not praying (or not praying) at the same altar you are? I have read your post a couple of times, but I still don't get your point.Beatnik said:
Wow, really? I didn't know that. I have never felt that way, or recieved any flak for my religon (or lack thereof) on any level, save one occasion.Nil said:
To contribute to the OP's pool of answers, I don't carry to protect myself from religous persecution. I have never felt myself in danger of physical harm because of my beliefs.
Obviously, if somebody is attacked and murdered for any reason, their corpse is just as dead any other. The religion of it's former inhabitant is a moot point.
Weapons for self defense sure are handy tools to help you keep your soul/intellect inside your cozy, warm body, no matter what you believe.
Weapons for self defense sure are handy tools to help you keep your soul/intellect inside your cozy, warm body, no matter what you believe.
SaintofKillers
Member
I dont believe that my religious beliefs have any effects on my reasons for carrying or owning firearms. That being said I will say that I have never felt persecuted for my beliefs. I do not flaunt it, but I am not going to hide it either.
Dagda is my protector, weilding quite a club. One side that can take life away and the other restore it. Pagan teachings have taught me that one should have a black handled athame (Blade) for ritual use and a white handled athame for self defense.
Hows a 1911 with ivory grips??
People have asked about the pentacle I wear. Some are ignorant and think its a sign of satanism. After a detailed explanation, if they are willing to listen, I think most folk come away with at least a better understanding.
Dagda is my protector, weilding quite a club. One side that can take life away and the other restore it. Pagan teachings have taught me that one should have a black handled athame (Blade) for ritual use and a white handled athame for self defense.
Hows a 1911 with ivory grips??
People have asked about the pentacle I wear. Some are ignorant and think its a sign of satanism. After a detailed explanation, if they are willing to listen, I think most folk come away with at least a better understanding.
This had me laughing put loud - thanks.
Whitewolf 508
Member
Discrimination by the Govenment
I am not sure which group gets more hatred..I don't really think we need a competition for that. I do know that the various pagan groups are hated by certain prominent members of governement.
Pagan groups, even those with certification programs for clergy, are denied tax exemptions for clergy and for their places of worship. The Veterans Administration allows crosses, stars of David and Muslim crescents on gravestones in a VA cemetary but refuses to allow Wiccan pentagrams.
One poster mentioned the Burning Times. I doubt that many of you know about that period in history but I would suggest that you do a web search about it and learn how many people died in the name of religous purity(and also greed since the denouncer and the state got to split the victim's property). It was a precurser to the Holocaust - a warm up so to speak..
The path that I am on teaches personal responsibility..the devil does not make me do it...I believe that the majority of people here are also advocates of that philosophy or they would simply allow the police to "protect"them. America was founded by individualists that risked everything to come here in the first place and forged a nation out of the forest. It is a pity that we are losing our birthright to the sheep that do not want to take responsibilty for their own lives(or for us to do so on our own.)
Blessed be, brothers and sisters.
I am not sure which group gets more hatred..I don't really think we need a competition for that. I do know that the various pagan groups are hated by certain prominent members of governement.
Pagan groups, even those with certification programs for clergy, are denied tax exemptions for clergy and for their places of worship. The Veterans Administration allows crosses, stars of David and Muslim crescents on gravestones in a VA cemetary but refuses to allow Wiccan pentagrams.
One poster mentioned the Burning Times. I doubt that many of you know about that period in history but I would suggest that you do a web search about it and learn how many people died in the name of religous purity(and also greed since the denouncer and the state got to split the victim's property). It was a precurser to the Holocaust - a warm up so to speak..
The path that I am on teaches personal responsibility..the devil does not make me do it...I believe that the majority of people here are also advocates of that philosophy or they would simply allow the police to "protect"them. America was founded by individualists that risked everything to come here in the first place and forged a nation out of the forest. It is a pity that we are losing our birthright to the sheep that do not want to take responsibilty for their own lives(or for us to do so on our own.)
Blessed be, brothers and sisters.
statelineblues
Member
While I may be more concerned about the man with a weapon in his hand than one with a bible or political manifesto in his hand, I will do whatever I must to protect my family from danger - of any kind.
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
"Church"
I have, in my time, been a "member" of probably ten different "churches" or sects or religions.
Some were basically variations on a theme.
Some were . . . different.
Of those, several were simply a function of whatever my parents were doing, which was often a function of where we lived.
Three, however, were of my own choosing as I made my way through life's experiences in search of something that a) was consistent in belief and practice, b) could be applied to everyday life in a practical sense.
They have all had a fairly prominent non-violent thread somewhere in their dogma/doctrine.
I won't go into the brand names of these [strike]cults[/strike] [strike]sects[/strike] [strike]churches[/strike] [strike]religions[/strike] bodies of spiritual knowledge and wisdom. There is a fair amount of commonality, but enough differences that there was/is plenty of opportunity for "no true Scotsman" assertions.
What I found pretty broadly was that the flavor of the "congregation" tended, on the whole, to be a function of local culture although, as I said, there has always been a bias towards non-violence and (to a degree) pacifism.
Only one group actually encouraged learning how to cope with real life, learning skill at arms, and taught that "you ain't much good to anybody, dead." And even among the greater number of these adherents, there's a tendency to assert that all (or nearly all) conflicts can be resolved without resorting to violence.
There is, in many of these faiths, a sort of aloofness and a sense that, if you get your hands dirty by using violence to survive, you become tainted and can never truly be clean again.
There seem to be two approaches to getting past this: 1) I don't care what they teach, I'm gonna protect what's mine and woe be unto him who would trespass me and mine, or 2) it is clear that the preservation of myself, my family, my community, and my nation are the greater good, and there is no honor in abdicating that responsibility under the pretext of avoiding whatever violence may obtain in their defense.
I'm more in line with (2) above.
We can discuss my purity of heart after the threat has been removed.
If none of us is left because we elected to "stand peacefully by" while evil worked its wrath, there won't be any discussion now, will there?
Any "church" can extol the virtues of peace.
Peace is only a virtue if you live to enjoy it.
In my own hierarchy, honor, the greater good (family, etc.), and survival trump peace.
I have, in my time, been a "member" of probably ten different "churches" or sects or religions.
Some were basically variations on a theme.
Some were . . . different.
Of those, several were simply a function of whatever my parents were doing, which was often a function of where we lived.
Three, however, were of my own choosing as I made my way through life's experiences in search of something that a) was consistent in belief and practice, b) could be applied to everyday life in a practical sense.
They have all had a fairly prominent non-violent thread somewhere in their dogma/doctrine.
I won't go into the brand names of these [strike]cults[/strike] [strike]sects[/strike] [strike]churches[/strike] [strike]religions[/strike] bodies of spiritual knowledge and wisdom. There is a fair amount of commonality, but enough differences that there was/is plenty of opportunity for "no true Scotsman" assertions.
What I found pretty broadly was that the flavor of the "congregation" tended, on the whole, to be a function of local culture although, as I said, there has always been a bias towards non-violence and (to a degree) pacifism.
Only one group actually encouraged learning how to cope with real life, learning skill at arms, and taught that "you ain't much good to anybody, dead." And even among the greater number of these adherents, there's a tendency to assert that all (or nearly all) conflicts can be resolved without resorting to violence.
There is, in many of these faiths, a sort of aloofness and a sense that, if you get your hands dirty by using violence to survive, you become tainted and can never truly be clean again.
There seem to be two approaches to getting past this: 1) I don't care what they teach, I'm gonna protect what's mine and woe be unto him who would trespass me and mine, or 2) it is clear that the preservation of myself, my family, my community, and my nation are the greater good, and there is no honor in abdicating that responsibility under the pretext of avoiding whatever violence may obtain in their defense.
I'm more in line with (2) above.
We can discuss my purity of heart after the threat has been removed.
If none of us is left because we elected to "stand peacefully by" while evil worked its wrath, there won't be any discussion now, will there?
Any "church" can extol the virtues of peace.
Peace is only a virtue if you live to enjoy it.
In my own hierarchy, honor, the greater good (family, etc.), and survival trump peace.
The belief that the devil tries to influence people in a negative way does not mean that the person also believes in the state being responsible for their protection or that they are sheep or that they do not believe in personal responsibility. If you would like people to respect your beliefs, I would limit your assumptions of other religions.
Strings
Member
*sigh*
Ok... forst off, the version of the rede I've always been aware of "An' it harm none, do as ye will. Should harm be necessary, do as ye must". Fairly self-explanatory...
The "rednecks meet Asatrau" has several variants. Version I'm familiar with is a KKK group going out to find them "freaks out in the forrest". Which they do, only to be informed "You raise that cross, I nail you to it. And I've got my hammer right here"...
Does my decision to own firearms/lobby for CCW have anything to do with my religion? Not really: I was this way before discovering paganism. It's certainly helped out a few times though!
Last bit: "the Burning Times". Yes, there were "witch hunts" in mainland Europe. Yes, folks died. However, none of those folks were Wiccan. And the body counts that you see listed are usually VERY exagerated...
Ok... forst off, the version of the rede I've always been aware of "An' it harm none, do as ye will. Should harm be necessary, do as ye must". Fairly self-explanatory...
The "rednecks meet Asatrau" has several variants. Version I'm familiar with is a KKK group going out to find them "freaks out in the forrest". Which they do, only to be informed "You raise that cross, I nail you to it. And I've got my hammer right here"...
Does my decision to own firearms/lobby for CCW have anything to do with my religion? Not really: I was this way before discovering paganism. It's certainly helped out a few times though!
Last bit: "the Burning Times". Yes, there were "witch hunts" in mainland Europe. Yes, folks died. However, none of those folks were Wiccan. And the body counts that you see listed are usually VERY exagerated...
I have explored various beliefs and belief systems. I've never factored my personal religious beliefs into whether to carry or not. I have seen plenty of reasons for people in any minority to have a great need to have the means to protect themselves from Haters hiding amongst the general population. I don't care if you're Wiccan, Catholic, Jewish or Northern, Southern, Eastern or just plain folks that look/act a little different, never forget there are hungry monsters pretending to be human that are hiding amonst the general population just looking for victims. They look for victims that no one else will aid so they pick those that are "other" so they can hunt freely. We should all be prepared to protect ourselves and families from them and be prepared to stand with our friends against them, regardless of their "faith".
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
The ramifications of "And these eight words of the Rede ye fulfill; an ye harm none, do as ye will,*" are far greater than mere fluffy-bunniness --like "don't cheat the 'phone company out of its dime," and so on.
Remember that that the "none" in the injunction "harm none" includes yourself, and the Rede thereby allows for self-defense.
Most Dedicants and Novitiates don't realize this until they get further into it, whence the apparent fluffy-bunniness.
Sort of like Asimov's First Law of Robotics, which uses the words, "or through inaction, allow a human to come to harm."
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*Courtesy Doreen Valiente
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