Please stop hunting with 220gr 300 BLK subsonic

[d2wing]

Fackler is often cited by people that do not understand his limitations. His observations were on FMJ wounds he saw in combat related conditions. He is completely uninformed about the science of it. He could not explain much of what he saw nor did he understand how it works. Since FMJ bullets do not mushroom they are much less lethal and the their wound cavities are less. The only way they can dissipate high energy is if they break down rather than mushroom. Fragmentation is normally not what you want in a bullet for humans and large game. His conclusions are misleading because he doesn't understand how bullets work and has no standard to go by. Just like a bunch more half baked ideas like TKO.
Citing Fackler for hunting or civilian arms is misleading and uninformed. And contrary to what some of you say. Real scientists and main stream bullet companies have know this for a hundred years or more and are improving hunting bullets every year since. The goal is controlled expansion maintaining bullet mass. Not fragmentation.

 

[CraigC]

Just like a bunch more half baked ideas like TKO.

Yeah, you kill enough elephants to refute it?

The goal is controlled expansion maintaining bullet mass. Not fragmentation.

Not necessarily. I've seen these in action and they work beautifully.

http://www.cuttingedgebullets.com

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Really? Take three identical .44Mag loads, identical bullet weights at identical speeds. One being a 240gr JHP, one a 240gr FMJ, the other a 240gr SWC. All three produce the same level of kinetic energy. All three will exit a deer on a broadside shot. Which will produce the most tissue damage? The one that expands to .75"? Based on what, energy?

You still seem to be missing the entire point of the thread.

What if you chose any one of those three bullets and propelled one of them at 1050 fps and a second at 2500 fps?

Which one has more lethality?

Change the FMJ to 300gr at the same velocity. Energy goes up exponentially, does effectiveness? No.

Actually, it may.

Again, you seem to be missing the basic mechanics of how it works. If the bullet is below the velocity threshold at which you get hydrostatic shock, increasing it's mass won't matter. If the bullet is above the velocity needed, increasing it's mass will increase it's lethality

Drive it 200fps faster, energy is increased dramatically. Is it more effective? No.

If that 200 fps moves it above or further above the level required to generate shock, the correct answer is yes.

Flip it around. We can drive the SWC 200fps less and it will basically produce the same result.

That is correct, if the bullet was already at or below the floor required to generate shock, slowing it down more will not make it generate less than no shock.

This is really silly that you still refuse to acknowledge this. Here, do a test at home. Fill a large bowl of water, or your tub. Take your hand as a knife blade and slide it slowly into the water. Very little resistance and disruption right? Now slap the water with an open palm as fast as you can. Great big resistance and disruption right? Now, see if you can slide your open palm into the water with very little resistance and disruption. It easy to do as long as you go slow. You have just seen small and slow bullets, large and fast bullets and large and slow bullets. Now for the kicker, try small and fast. Is there a point where you can get the small profile moving fast enough to generate large disruption and resistance from the water? Yes, of course there is.

And you think water behaves differently when you put it in thin meat sacks why?

 

[CraigC]

You still seem to be missing the entire point of the thread.

No, the bottom line is that your mind was made up before you posted this thread and no facts will ever change it.

What if you chose any one of those three bullets and propelled one of them at 1050 fps and a second at 2500 fps?

Which one has more lethality?

Depends entirely on the bullet and how it behaves at 1050fps or 2500fps.

Actually, it may.

How is that possible? If a 240gr FMJ at a given velocity is going to exit, how can a 300gr of the same design at the same velocity do anything different? The answer is that it won't and if you believe it does, then you have more misconceptions that I first thought. Being elbows deep in 50 animals does not preclude one from reaching incorrect conclusions.

If the bullet is below the velocity threshold at which you get hydrostatic shock, increasing it's mass won't matter. If the bullet is above the velocity needed, increasing it's mass will increase it's lethality

Wrong. If the bullet is below the threshold then it won't make any difference by increasing or decreasing velocity by 200fps. If it is above, it 'may' make a difference but it 'may' also be immeasurable. Increasing mass won't help the FMJ unless penetration is insufficient. In my example, all three 240's exit. In the .44Mag example, we're nowhere near the threshold anyway.

If that 200 fps moves it above or further above the level required to generate shock, the correct answer is yes.

Not at handgun speeds, or even rifle velocities in the .44Mag.

This is really silly...

Yes, it is, you are arguing against statements I never made. :banghead:

 

[d2wing]

That is exactly why black power bullets had to be big. It was the only way to increase energy with limited velocity. Also effects like cavitation and shock are not as big a factor below 2500 fps. While there is some effect that does increase with speed at lower velocities slow bullets have to be of larger caliber and have more mass. But even at low speeds energy matters. There is substantial difference between a .44 mag and a .45 ACP. Or standard 45 LC.
But within limits of minimum energy, mass and velocity, shot placement is paramount.

 

[CraigC]

Still waiting to hear on the number of elephants you killed to be able to refute TKO and on what basis????

It was the only way to increase energy with limited velocity.

No, bigger bullets make bigger holes. Heavier bullets make deeper holes. Energy has nothing to do with it.

There is substantial difference between a .44 mag and a .45 ACP. Or standard 45 LC.

And that would be?

 

[MCgunner]

No, bigger bullets make bigger holes. Heavier bullets make deeper holes. Energy has nothing to do with it.

You should take this up with Doctor Michael Courtney..... http://ballisticstestinggroup.org/lotor.pdf

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

No, the bottom line is that your mind was made up before you posted this thread and no facts will ever change it.

How is it that you are still missing that I hunt with one of your large moderate speed rounds myself and find absolutely nothing wrong with it?

Seriously?

It's amazing, this image you have formed in your own mind and set yourself with determination to tear it down.

Depends entirely on the bullet and how it behaves at 1050fps or 2500fps.

Okay, since you are going to be willfully obtuse and can't admit to the obvious, forget it's a bullet. It's a baseball. I throw a baseball at you at a respectable 80 mph and it hits you. That hurts, but it's okay. Now I use a machine to throw the baseball at you at 500 mph. Tell me about that. How does that make you feel? The baseball is the same. It's mass is the same. It's composition is the same, yet somehow you are dead now.

Please explain.

This is the thread in it's entirety. I didn't say, "don't hunt with .308 bullets". I didn't even say "don't hunt with small diameter bullets". Heck, I didn't even say, "don't hunt with 300 Blackout".

You can put up all the strawmen you want, tilt at your own windmills or go on for days and days about the super wonder magic power of BS 45 Colt stories.

All I said was don't use this one specific load because it's 500 mph baseball has been taken away.

The fact that you refuse to acknowledge the 500 mph baseball is going to kill you, because it's doing 500 mph, is simply amazing.

If a 240gr FMJ at a given velocity is going to exit, how can a 300gr of the same design at the same velocity do anything different?

Because physics. More mass and the same velocity means more energy. Also, gross misunderstanding of physics on your part. Just because object A and object B both enter and leave an object does not mean that object A and object B deposited the same amount of energy on their way through the object.

If the bullet is below the threshold then it won't make any difference by increasing or decreasing velocity by 200fps. If it is above, it 'may' make a difference but it 'may' also be immeasurable.

So, in one sentence you say that it won't, but in the next sentence you say it will... but then hand wave it away as being to small to measure?

So, you admit that it does happen, and the more velocity increases the more it happens.. You do realize you've capitulated and admitted I'm right? Right?

Heavier bullets make deeper holes. Energy has nothing to do with it.

If energy is not in the equation... how did the heavier bullet get deeper in the hole?

 

[Jason_W]

If the .243, the .44 mag., the .308, and the .45-70 can all kill game very dead, very quickly when used within their range limitations and with proper shot placement, what exactly is all the argument about? If your weapon of choice kills quickly, who cares about the mechanics?

Again, the gripe the OP had was with with one particular load for the .300 blk, the ballistics of which run counter to the thinking of both the big slow and heavy guys and the high velocity guys.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Isn't this more a matter of people hunting with a marginal deer cartridge outside that cartridge's effective range?

The OP mentions people hunting with .45 ACP 1911s, which certainly can be done, but you'll notice nobody who does so is taking 125-yard shots with it, unlike the folks with the .300 Blackout subsonics. I wonder if this issue would still be present if the .300 BLK shooters were only taking pistol-range shots.

 

[Robert]

After four pages and more than a little bickering let's call this one done.