Possible reversal to Virginia CCW reciprocity ban

[basicblur]

From VCDL

February 1 cutoff date for dropping recognition of 25 states has been extended to March 1

THE “DEAL”

As you've undoubtedly heard from the media, there is a package deal in the works between Governor McAuliffe and the Republicans in the General Assembly dealing with 1) concealed handgun permit (CHP) reciprocity, 2) voluntary background checks at gunshows, and 3) those subject to a permanent domestic violence protection order.

To many CHP holders, CHP reciprocity is a HUGE deal, especially if they travel out-of-state regularly and want to be able to carry discretely. For example, there is no solution to carrying in South Carolina if we don’t have an agreement between our two states.

There is a lot of misinformation from the media and elsewhere and a lot of people are coming to the wrong conclusions about what the deal does and doesn’t do. Rumors are flying that gun owners only get back the reciprocity that was taken away by Herring and the State Police - that is FALSE. We have gained important ground!

THE DEAL IS STILL IN THE WORKS. Things could still go south as the key bills that make up the deal work their way through the legislature and onto the Governor’s desk. SO, FOR NOW, NOTHING HAS CHANGED. THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE GUARANTEE THIS WILL BECOME LAW, BUT A REASONABLY GOOD CHANCE IT WILL. If it fails, we may not be able to fix the reciprocity situation for another two-long-years.

VCDL has been privy to the deal for several days, as was a national group. VCDL monitored progress of this potentially groundbreaking advancement of our liberty from its genesis, and provided counsel and discussion points during its evolution.

The final product was given the nod by VCDL, however we will be watching like a hawk for any changes that negatively affect gun owners.


IMPORTANT DETAILS ON THE “DEAL”

There are three components that make up the deal, each component represented by matching bills in the House and in the Senate.

#1 - Reciprocity details - gun owners gain ground!

* Virginia will honor the carry permits from ALL states! This is considerably better than current law and something VCDL has been trying to get for at least seven years now.

* Because Virginia will honor all other states, Virginia CHPs will be recognized by all the states we have lost AND we will gain some new states: New Hampshire, Georgia, and Colorado!

* The State Police and the Attorney General will have NO say in the new law. If another state requires a formal agreement to honor Virginia CHPs, the new law requires the Attorney General to enter into any such agreement. If he fails to do this, item #3, below, does not go into effect.

* One other change on the reciprocity law: If your Virginia CHP is revoked for cause, you won’t be able to carry on a non-resident permit from another state. Not a deal breaker.

NOTE: Just because we are honoring all other states, doesn’t mean we can carry in all those states. Someone from New York will be able to carry here, but we won’t be able to carry in New York unless New York is willing to enter into a reciprocal agreement with Virginia, for example.

As more and more states start honoring out-of-state permits, the prospects of our permit being honored by even more states down the road is bright!

#2 - Voluntary gun show background checks

* Background checks for a private sale are COMPLETELY voluntary.

* The State Police shall be at every gun show in Virginia, by law. (Some gun owners were thinking this was some kind of a trick - that if the State Police don’t show up, the gun show would be cancelled. This should put that worry to rest.)

* The gun show promoter shall notify the State Police of the location and times of the gun show at least 30 days in advance, shall provide a free location for the police to set up, and shall have signs letting attendees know of the voluntary background checks at the State Police booth. (I checked with one of Virginia’s largest gun show promoters on this to see if any of it was objectionable and was told, “no.”)

* The State Police may charge a reasonable fee. (If they charge more than you want to pay, you can just walk away and do the transaction without the background check.)

* NO information on the make, model, or serial number of the gun being sold will be provided to the State Police - i.e. no federal Form 4473! The purchaser will have to fill out the Virginia form, which asks a few questions and has the buyer's name, address, and signature. (If you don’t want to fill out that form, you can just walk away and do the transaction without the background check.)

* There is a carrot: if a background check is run, the seller receives some special legal protections that are currently not available for private sales. If a background check is not run, you don’t have any more or any less legal protections than under current law.

#3 - Persons subject to a PERMANENT domestic violence protection order cannot possess firearms until the order expires

* The ONLY permanent protection order this restriction applies to is one for domestic violence and NOTHING else.

* The subject of the protection order must have had his day in court along with any legal counsel. Temporary protection orders do NOT affect possession of firearms.

* If the judge, after hearing the defense, decides to issue a permanent protection order anyhow, the subject of the protection order will lose his gun rights for the duration of the order (MAXIMUM of two years), and automatically get those gun rights back when the permanent protection order expires. Note: a new permanent protection order could potentially be issued when the perament protection order expires if the judge thinks a danger still exists.

* The subject of the permanent protection order will have 24 hours to turn his guns over to a person of his choice, as long as that person can legally possess firearms.

* The above is basically federal law already, and state law already prohibits a person with such a permanent protection order from purchasing or transporting a firearm.

 

[vamo]

Wow didn't realize reciprocity was actually getting codified in law. If you are a Virginia gun owner and you don't support this deal then I don't know what to say. The legislature actually passing a law and governor agreeing to sign it prevents future Govs/AGs from doing this.

 

[Red Wind]

Thank you, Basicblur, for all that mainly positive information. A lot of background. Your time putting together that fine post is greatly appreciated.

 

[basicblur]

Thank you, Basicblur, for all that mainly positive information. A lot of background. Your time putting together that fine post is greatly appreciated.

Yeah...cut and pasting is so time consuming!

As stated, the info came from VCDL's free e-mail newsletter - check out the VA Alert link at the top of the page.

You folks that are VA residents (but anyone can sign up) should visit VCDL's site and sign up for the free e-mail. They also have a lot of good info / brochures you can download and pass out / forward to your friends (such as the Do You Know The Dangers of Universal Background Checks PDF).

The boyz at VCDL stay on those lawmakers in Richmond like a rash.

If any of you folks are not members of your state gun rights group, now's the time to join!

If you have a democratic governor and / or AG, Bloomberg may well be planning on doing to you what they just tried to pull in VA.

 

[agtman]

Wow, it's always been of interest to me how law-abiding Virginians, in a state so close to the center of federal power in D.C., are so willing to negotiate away pieces of their 2nd Amdt rights.

Maybe Virginia's the state where most of the Torys lived when the Revolution was fought?

Probably won't see any concessions like this happening in Texas, Wyoming, Ohio, Kentucky, or Florida, ... huh?

 

[wideym]

I love the "optional background check" provision. Although, I didn't see mention of any fee involved, one article did mention a $100,000 earmark for the program. I love the idea of being able to run a background check on a buyer who I do not personally know without going to an FFL, logging it in, filling out a 4473, and paying a (totally deserved) fee to the FFL for his time.

 

[vamo]

Wow, it's always been of interest to me how law-abiding Virginians, in a state so close to the center of federal power in D.C., are so willing to negotiate away pieces of their 2nd Amdt rights.

Maybe Virginia's the state where most of the Torys lived when the Revolution was fought?

Probably won't see any concessions like this happening in Texas, Wyoming, Ohio, Kentucky, or Florida, ... huh?

And what right has been negotiated away in this deal? VA law is pretty much being changed to reflect what is already federal law. In return gun owners get reciprocity coded into law. That is HUGE, if its not codified then it only takes anti governors/AG's to screw it up. By passing a law through the legislature it will take another legislative act to undo it.

Oh and fyi gun owners in most states would absolutely love to have Virginia's gun laws. Basically everything that is legal federally is legal and ccw cheap fast and shall issue. Heck, Texas just now got open carry Virginia has always had it to my knowledge.

 

[Red Wind]

You got it right, Vamo. The Old Dominion is holding its own. Florida still trails you in some respects, especially the lack of Open Carry.

Per Dionne Warwick, Say a Little Prayer For Us!

 

[HOOfan_1]

Maybe Virginia's the state where most of the Torys lived when the Revolution was fought?

Probably won't see any concessions like this happening in Texas, Wyoming, Ohio, Kentucky, or Florida, ... huh?

I am hoping this is sarcasm.

George Washington, Daniel Morgan, Patrick Henry, George Mason, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison were all Virginians. Maybe you were not aware that those are the guys who lead the Revolution, wrote the Declaration of Independence, lead the Constitutional Convention and spearheaded the Bill of Rights.

Secondly...Texas is just now getting open carry...Virginia has had that for quite a while.
Virginians don't need a CCW to carry loaded handguns in their car..Ohioans do. Virginia had no duty to inform officers of carrying...Ohio does. Virginia requires no range time for a CCW...Ohio and Kentucky do
So Wyoming is the only state you listed more RKBA friendly than Virginia.

 

[Praxidike]

I can safely say you are in the vast minority. Believe it. They really gave him nothing of value. Nothing. RKBA Virginia won. The Governor lost with egg on his face.

Just look at the angry "Coalition" response.

The Governor is not stupid. If fact, he's extremely clever. He is a one term anti-gun Governor that's firmly established in Bloomberg's pockets who could not care any less about the complaints of the VCDL, NRA, or any gun owners. If he could get CA and NY type of legislation pushed through yesterday, he would in a heart beat despite the fall out. What he did was to take something away from us, and then basically agree to give it back with some gun control measures tact on to it that otherwise would not have passed. He knew EXACTLY what he was doing, and not only did his plan work, he has us feeling like we beat him...

The NRA is in favor of the deal (they helped broker it) and the antigunners are fervently opposed. That tells you all you need to know.

In December 2014, McAuliffe pushed for this very legislation:

The Governor proposes prohibiting anyone subject to a protective order or convicted of certain misdemeanor offenses from owning a gun. Those include brandishing a firearm, domestic assault, and stalking.

But Philip Van Cleave with the Virginia Citizens Defense League says that's not how the law should be interpreted.

Governor McAuliffe Vows to Stick to His Gun Control Measures

Not only did McAuliffe's legislation NOT pass, but the VCDL was STRONGLY against it! Matter of fact in a mailing list email, the VCDL labeled the legislation "WORST-OF-THE-WORST."

The NRA was against it as well...

The National Rifle Association cites research, specifically a 2006 study by a Duke University public policy professor and a director at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which shows that laws banning guns for those under a restraining order or convicted of misdemeanors related to domestic violence have, in the NRA’s words, “substantively insignificant” effect on domestic-violence homicide rates.

Gun-rights proponents also largely object to one type of proposal, currently pending in Illinois and Connecticut, which places firearms restrictions on people subjected to a temporary restraining order. Such orders often are granted quickly and without giving the subjects the chance to present their sides of the story in court, they say.

“Our nation needs solutions that make women and children safer, while protecting basic constitutional rights to due process and self-protection—not politically motivated proposals that ignore underlying problems,” said NRA spokeswoman Jennifer Baker, in a statement.

Gun-Control Backers Turn Their Focus to Domestic Violence

So the governor strategically took away reciprocity, something he really cared absolutely nothing about, from us, and basically agreed to give it back if we accepted gun control measures that everyone was STRONGLY AGAINST, but he has been pushing for over a year. The funny thing is that if he got this push through last year, everyone would have been up in arms over it, but now all of a sudden, everyone is pretending that this same legislation is "nothing of value." Well played McAuliffe! Guess we sure showed him!

 

[Praxidike]

Yes, you're wrong. Under federal law a person (18 USC 922(g)(8)):

​

may not lawfully possess a gun or ammunition.

Thanks Frank. I just seen your reply. As usual, you are correct.

 

[Red Wind]

Thanks Frank. I just seen your reply. As usual, you are correct.

Relax. For the majority of Virginia, all is well. I hope your situation works out.

Best wishes.

 

[AlexanderA]

Praxidike wrote:

The Governor is not stupid. If fact, he's extremely clever. He is a one term anti-gun Governor that's firmly established in Bloomberg's pockets who could not care any less about the complaints of the VCDL, NRA, or any gun owners. If he could get CA and NY type of legislation pushed through yesterday, he would in a heart beat despite the fall out. What he did was to take something away from us, and then basically agree to give it back with some gun control measures tact on to it that otherwise would not have passed. He knew EXACTLY what he was doing, and not only did his plan work, he has us feeling like we beat him...

I think you're misreading Terry McAuliffe. Everybody knows he's antigun. That's a given. But he's a close crony of Hillary Clinton, and his #1 priority is to carry Virginia, a swing state, for Hillary. What this deal tells me is that he's trying to defuse the gun issue in Virginia for the 2016 election. It's going to be extremely close, and a few votes either way could make the difference. McAuliffe just doesn't want gun owners hopping mad at this moment. So he gave them more than he ordinarily would have. After the election, he's going back to the gun control mode.

 

[agtman]

I am hoping this is sarcasm.

Actually it was, ... I do like Virginia, been there many times. It just surprises me that despite electing an anti-gun rights Dem governor, Virginians would put up with this.

Hopefully, they'll see that it gets fixed.

 

[vamo]

I have personally come to believe that every gun measure no matter how small should be initially opposed. Use the trivial stuff we don't care about like a state law that makes a very small distinction that gets overridden by federal law anyway, to get something we actually want. You know like reciprocity coded into law.

 

[orpington]

Post # 30, above:

I lived in Virginia for nearly a decade and a half. I would move back there in a heartbeat, but reside elsewhere as...you know...need to have a job!

I resided in the northern Virginia area and in Blacksburg. I tend to prefer the more rural areas, getting down towards Orange, Fauquier (not so rural anymore!), Madison, and Culpeper counties.

What has happened in Virginia lately is that the northern Virginia area has grown increasingly more urban. Urban environments tend to become more liberal, or they attract transplants who come from other urban areas, and urban areas tend to be more liberal, and anti-gun, than are the more rural areas.

Because of this, there is an increasingly urban population, as the more rural areas are not growing, or, if growing, not nearly as fast. This is why Virginia has gone from a red to an increasingly blue state. I think the same is true of New York. Most of New York, with regards to the geography, is rural, but most of the population base lives in the urban NYC vicinity.

 

[Praxidike]

Praxidike wrote:



I think you're misreading Terry McAuliffe. Everybody knows he's antigun. That's a given. But he's a close crony of Hillary Clinton, and his #1 priority is to carry Virginia, a swing state, for Hillary. What this deal tells me is that he's trying to defuse the gun issue in Virginia for the 2016 election. It's going to be extremely close, and a few votes either way could make the difference. McAuliffe just doesn't want gun owners hopping mad at this moment. So he gave them more than he ordinarily would have. After the election, he's going back to the gun control mode.

I'm not misreading him at all. He, Hillary, and Obama are openingly campaigning for gun control, they beleive that a majority of americans (especially their base) are anti-gun, so they see getting any gun control measures pushed through as being something that will energize their base and the majority of pro-gun control Virginians. He knew all to well that gun rights advocates would get "hoping mad" before he did it especially if you take into account he messed with reciprocity AFTER the elections and backlash from the State building carry bans. He already knows most gun owners are going to be out in numbers voting against Hillary. His using gun control to get his base to the polls.

It's my strong opinion that he had this planned, and used reciprocity as a bargaining chip to push his gun control agenda.

What has happened in Virginia lately is that the northern Virginia area has grown increasingly more urban. Urban environments tend to become more liberal, or they attract transplants who come from other urban areas, and urban areas tend to be more liberal, and anti-gun, than are the more rural areas.

Because of this, there is an increasingly urban population, as the more rural areas are not growing, or, if growing, not nearly as fast. This is why Virginia has gone from a red to an increasingly blue state. I think the same is true of New York. Most of New York, with regards to the geography, is rural, but most of the population base lives in the urban NYC vicinity.

Exactly. The Governor is targeting the growing liberal demographic.

 

[Jim K]

I think McAuliffe made the deal with the best of intentions, and I see no problem with making background checks available, not mandatory. What he probably did not expect was the near insane attacks on him from the anti-gun gang, who have been going at him with the maniacal fervor they usually reserve for the NRA, including, i have heard, personal threats. It must be galling to be hammered and threatened by his "friends." Now he knows how it feels to be on the receiving end of the kind of vile hatred he has been dishing out all these years.

Jim

 

[Red Wind]

I think you have nailed the truth, Jim K.

 

[dragon813gt]

Because of this, there is an increasingly urban population, as the more rural areas are not growing, or, if growing, not nearly as fast. This is why Virginia has gone from a red to an increasingly blue state. I think the same is true of New York. Most of New York, with regards to the geography, is rural, but most of the population base lives in the urban NYC vicinity.

This is every state in the North East. PA is the same way and we are controlled by three cities. Four if you count Happy Valley. If it's not happening in your state yet it will as your cities grow. The urban versus rural divide is really at the heart of the matter. And there sure isn't an easy solution to fix it.

 

[Red Wind]

There sure is no easy fix. Florida, with Miami,Orlando,St.Pete/Tampa and Tally is in the same situation.

Only Jacksonville remains somewhat above this fray. Liberals hate hard. And control is their Holy Grail.

We just have to work at it every day and defeat them . Losing is not an option. We'll overcome because we have to defeat this infestation.

 

[22-rimfire]

Sounds like an okay deal to me. Glad I don't have to carry my BFR un-concealed just because now.

 

[mp510]

That sounds like a really good plan.

My only concern is how the prohibition on use of a non-resident permit could be interpreted with respect to person's who have had a VA permit revoked for cause. An approach that could help avoid a couple of the (likely exceedingly rare) situations that I am thinking of would be to simply proscribe use of non-resident permit by persons not eligible for a Virginia permit (possibly with an exemption for out of state residents with respect to training requirements- to account for differences between states)

 

[herkyguy]

VA CCW changes.....again

I realize this may get moved, but I didn't see it addressed anywhere else and it has an immediate impact on VA CCW.

http://www.wcyb.com/news/Va-reversing-concealed-carry-policy-recognizing-other-states-again/37716632

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_Reciprocity.shtm

On the VA State police website, they have extended the end of reciprocity until March 1, vice February 1. I suspect this may be a result of the VA Governor reversing the state's earlier decision to end much of its reciprocity.

I do not believe it has been signed yet, but it appears to be in the works to once again allow broad reciprocity in VA.

Personally, I don't like the fact that CCW reciprocity is up in the air. I wish it were concrete and clear. I live on the border of NC and VA. I intend to continue carrying with my NC CCW into the state of VA, per the State Police website indicating March 1 as a new deadline - hopefully it will soon reflect the governor's statements.

On a brighter note, I know lots of folks (including myself) sent emails and phone calls to VA politicians. Very glad to see that some grassroots efforts got the Gov's attention.

 

[HOOfan_1]

If it is put into the Code of Virginia, it will be concrete and clear, and won't be subject to the whims of a single politician.

If it is put into the Code of Virginia in this Session, it won't be effective until July 1 when the new Fiscal Year starts in Virginia.