PRS/NRL22 rifle

[rdnktrkr]

Went to the property and sighted it in using bulk ammo at 50yrds, looking through the bore at the target and then putting the crosshairs on it didn't work as good as it has with bigger bores, I was over the backer board and couldn't see impacts, 5 or 6 shots later I realized where it was shooting and held down about 2ft to hit the target board, After I got it shooting on the board it was easy, shoot it and then move the crosshairs to the bullet hole, got me within 2 clicks. Shooting it was NICE 3 shots touching then the loose nut behind the trigger pulled one then one more back where the first 3 were. My friend shot it and now he wants one, said he's never had 5 shots touching with anything except a shotgun. We shot nothing but old bulk ammo I had and sometimes you could hear the different sound of a hot or soft round and it showed on the target. Overall it shot great, felt great, I think it liked a softer bag or I felt more comfortable using it than the hard packed one, the Arca rail and bipod worked great. We were using a Husky work table, bipod and rear bags.
I was asked where my ARs were and they were surprised I didn't bring one, all I brought was my wifes 9mm and a pair of M&P 45s. I need to practice more with my hand guns now also, I was shooting a 6" pattern at 33ft with flyers.

 

[12Bravo20]

It is nice when a gun shoots well with cheap bulk ammo. Better ammo will usually have less flyers though. The flyers you were getting with the 2LR could have been you or it could have been the cheap bulk ammo. Using the cheap stuff is still good practice but also try some better ammo to see how your rifle does.

As far as being out of practice with either rifles or handguns, use good shooting techniques and keep practicing. A 6" group at 33ft/11yards is acceptable for SD situations but strive to shrink those groups down to 3" at that distance. Again practice with good shooting techniques.

 

[rdnktrkr]

It is nice when a gun shoots well with cheap bulk ammo. Better ammo will usually have less flyers though. The flyers you were getting with the 2LR could have been you or it could have been the cheap bulk ammo. Using the cheap stuff is still good practice but also try some better ammo to see how your rifle does

I've bought several target/match ammo and have some Eley match heading my way, I just didn't get a chance to try it out, and can't wait to see just what this rifle will do. I know one of the flyers was me, nothing else and I felt crappy for missing that shot.
I checked the scope, shot once then 10mil rt up 10 shoot, down 10 shoot, down 10 shoot, down 10 shoot, return to first shot shoot I know there are better ways to check it out and later I will try them but it passed my little test.

As far as being out of practice with either rifles or handguns, use good shooting techniques and keep practicing. A 6" group at 33ft/11yards is acceptable for SD situations but strive to shrink those groups down to 3" at that distance. Again practice with good shooting techniques.

I caught myself limp wresting the 45 more than once, and not supporting my strong hand very well a couple of times, I got out of the habit of practicing with my handguns and it showed. Since I retired, I no longer seem to have any free time and never get a day off

 

[Chuck R.]

Here's an off the wall question..

How long are the 4x4s for the Tank Traps??

I'm going to build one, but I've found both 6' and 8' in plans. What's the most common?

 

[Walkalong]

I’ve seen both. Mine is 6 footers, should be a pic of it in the .22 deck thread

I’ve seen them with mixed 6 and 8

 

[Walkalong]

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/22-lr-shooting-bench.891388/page-4

I intend to build one out of 8 footers one day.

 

[Varminterror]

Here's an off the wall question..

How long are the 4x4s for the Tank Traps??

I'm going to build one, but I've found both 6' and 8' in plans. What's the most common?

My practice traps are 6ft, and frankly, taller than most I encounter at matches. I have an 8ft trap I leave in the field at one of my ranges, largely because it’s a bear to move around.

I drilled multiple holes in mine so I can shift them to multiple points. The ends are the same height, but the center height changes a lot.

This is the tallest center height on my 6ft trap, you can see the relative heights of the alternative center positions - the angles don’t change, the center just moves to those new heights. My son is ~4ft 5in in that pic, I don’t kneel at that height. You can also visually estimate here how much taller an 8ft trap would be. Each of my bolt holes are 1ft apart.


Doing a little trig, the ends of my 6ft traps should be 3ft 5 1/2in, while 8ft traps would be 4ft 7 1/2in at the ends. An extra foot puts them firmly standing, no kneeling, kneeling in the center if using a lower connection point option. With 6ft traps, I can kneel OR stand on the tips.

The biggest downside about shooting off of tank traps is the size and weight of the obstacle. Put copper tubing through your bolt points to help make sure the bolts can slide in and out more easily. And add a strap to tie the legs together when collapsed, otherwise, they’re kind of a pain in the butt to move, heavy, awkward, and essentially a pair of scissors with 3 blades which will smash your fingers and pinch your skin with a smile on their face. I also routed a radius on all of the edges of mine, helps prevent splitting, but also prevents picking up splinters in my hands. I keep one in my basement, one in my garage to haul to the range, and that 8ft trap left at one of my ranges.

 

[Chuck R.]

Guys,

THANKS!!

I'm not so worried about transport, it's going "out back" and that's what pallet forks on the tractor are for! I wanted to make sure I got the tip height correct for the biggest practice benefit.

VT,

The multiple hole idea is for adjustability is genius! I may split the difference, using 7' and your multiple holes W/copper tubing liners for adjustment.

 

[Varminterror]

The multiple hole idea is for adjustability is genius! I may split the difference, using 7' and your multiple holes W/copper tubing liners for adjustment.

It works pretty handy. But reiterating, the ends of the legs don’t change in height when swapping holes, only the center height. The legs move closer together on the ground and the tips move farther apart at the top, but the angle to eachother and the ground is the same, so the tips stay at the same place.

At most matches I’ve shot the last few years, the trend has been towards shorter traps so we’re tall-kneeling from the tips. Targets are getting smaller, and we move more - and a standing trap is actually easier to address than kneeling, since we don’t have to lace our legs around anything.

 

[Walkalong]

The tank trap we shot off of at West GA Precision.

 

[rdnktrkr]

Well my order of mags and ammo came in, I messed up on the mags, ordered regular Bergara AICS mags instead of a B14r mag. I'll use the regular mags for my Howa1500 and look around for some more B14r mags

 

[Chuck R.]

Well my order of mags and ammo came in, I messed up on the mags, ordered regular Bergara AICS mags instead of a B14r mag. I'll use the regular mags for my Howa1500 and look around for some more B14r magsView attachment 1159368

Try these guys:

https://aandjsporting.com/b14r-22lr-10-round-aics-mag/

I've had a great experience with them so far. Fantastic service and fast shipping ($5.00 flat rate). Lots of precision .22 "stuff".

 

[rdnktrkr]

I'll try them when I return from vacation, we will not be home for the next 2 weeks to receive a delivery

 

[Chuck R.]

So, now I've got a tank trap, 6' step ladder, folding metal chair, .22LR swingers inbound as well as a Trigger Tech diamond.

Does anyone have plans, or an idea of how tall a "rooftop" prop is? I've seen plans on line, but the level of detail frankly sucks. Kind of a "measure twice, cut once question" BEFORE I end up with multiple rooftops.

 

[Varminterror]

Does anyone have plans, or an idea of how tall a "rooftop" prop is?

Rooftops aren’t standardized - not for height, pitch, tread rails, peak type, surface material, direction of fire relative to the peak, or attached alternative firing positions.

For a home practice rooftop, about chest high makes sense, but could actually be lower. Chest high makes you step up onto it, but then your feet are a few feet from the bottom. I might also recommend making it adjustable for pitch, OR choose to make it at a steeper-than-comfortable pitch, otherwise it’s too easy to fill in your rear support. But a guy could make it likely waist high and have your feet near the ground - the feel getting on would be weird, kinda stepping down onto it instead of climbing up. I’ll attach a few photos of rooftops in just a bit.

 

[Varminterror]

A few rooftops I’ve shot in recent years - all different in design, materials, shapes, and sizes. Right angle to slightly obtuse is pretty common. Wood sucks for obstacles to be stored outside. It gets loose and wobbly, and plywood and chipboard get wonky really quickly.

One thing to note: the “roof length” has to be longer than a shooter’s body. We scrunch up on top of them, so they don’t need to be super long, but the length really needs to be long enough that a shooter’s feet aren’t close to touching the ground.

This scale is probably as “standard” as a rooftop gets, or should be. This is a steel frame with Diamond plate decking and steel step rails, with a “front edge”. It’s low enough to be fired standing (note Mr. Foundation himself removing his rifle from the rooftop, and he’s not a terribly tall dude), but tall enough that even an extended leg isn’t touching the ground. On this rooftop, you can see two posts sticking out of each side which are alternative firing positions from standing and kneeling beside either side of the rooftop.


Here’s another of approximately the same scale, but made from wood - AND lacking the front edge. I’m not a big fan of this design, as the big flat 2x4 top rail makes it way too easy. Some shooters also used to angle their bipods backwards at 45 degrees to engage the front edge, which obviously doesn’t work on this type without the edge. That range replaced this rooftop with a steel frame model, pictured below.


This is another twist of the same with an attached barricade. Again, the same problem with the large, flat peak line which makes the obstacle MUCH easier than a true ridgecap, the front edge is missing, and the chipboard here doesn’t hold up worth a damn.


This version of similar design is portable, it has a little flip out tongue to be drawn by a lawn tractor. Not exactly roadworthy, but quickly mobile.


The “parallel to the ridgeline” rooftops are a different twist - placing targets NOT straight out from the ridgeline makes for a pretty significant challenge (panning left and right across the parallel line to engage multiple targets is awful). This one is sheeted with polymer decking, which is slicker than gooseshit, so this match director gave up on using it as a mountable obstacle. But shooters can engage from kneeling behind either side, or standing behind the peak.


I’m not as much a fan of the height of this version, it’s a bit too tall, so there’s a bit more risk of slip/fall when engaging on top of the barricade, and it limits the shooter’s ability to switch positions (stepping off the end and moving to the opposite side), AND it eats up more material.


This is taller version, which only offers ONE means of engagement. This season, the match director added a staircase and platform beside this obstacle to allow the helper to hand up the rifle - which in both seasons has been criticized as “assistance” which is really defined as “interference,” and frowned upon. This one is on a trailer axle to be moved, with the wheels and tongue removed once positioned - relatively semi-permanent since it takes a bit of work to reinstall the components to move it.

 

[Walkalong]

Steel and aluminum diamond plate? You couldn’t touch that in July/August around here.

 

[JmacD]

Steel and aluminum diamond plate? You couldn’t touch that in July/August around here.

I was just thinking the same thing! You’d “brand” a really interesting pattern on yourself!

 

[Chuck R.]

A few rooftops I’ve shot in recent years - all different in design, materials, shapes, and sizes. Right angle to slightly obtuse is pretty common. Wood sucks for obstacles to be stored outside. It gets loose and wobbly, and plywood and chipboard get wonky really quickly.

One thing to note: the “roof length” has to be longer than a shooter’s body. We scrunch up on top of them, so they don’t need to be super long, but the length really needs to be long enough that a shooter’s feet aren’t close to touching the ground.

This scale is probably as “standard” as a rooftop gets, or should be. This is a steel frame with Diamond plate decking and steel step rails, with a “front edge”. It’s low enough to be fired standing (note Mr. Foundation himself removing his rifle from the rooftop, and he’s not a terribly tall dude), but tall enough that even an extended leg isn’t touching the ground. On this rooftop, you can see two posts sticking out of each side which are alternative firing positions from standing and kneeling beside either side of the rooftop.
View attachment 1161402 View attachment 1161404

Here’s another of approximately the same scale, but made from wood - AND lacking the front edge. I’m not a big fan of this design, as the big flat 2x4 top rail makes it way too easy. Some shooters also used to angle their bipods backwards at 45 degrees to engage the front edge, which obviously doesn’t work on this type without the edge. That range replaced this rooftop with a steel frame model, pictured below.
View attachment 1161405

This is another twist of the same with an attached barricade. Again, the same problem with the large, flat peak line which makes the obstacle MUCH easier than a true ridgecap, the front edge is missing, and the chipboard here doesn’t hold up worth a damn.
View attachment 1161408

This version of similar design is portable, it has a little flip out tongue to be drawn by a lawn tractor. Not exactly roadworthy, but quickly mobile.
View attachment 1161407

The “parallel to the ridgeline” rooftops are a different twist - placing targets NOT straight out from the ridgeline makes for a pretty significant challenge (panning left and right across the parallel line to engage multiple targets is awful). This one is sheeted with polymer decking, which is slicker than gooseshit, so this match director gave up on using it as a mountable obstacle. But shooters can engage from kneeling behind either side, or standing behind the peak.
View attachment 1161401

I’m not as much a fan of the height of this version, it’s a bit too tall, so there’s a bit more risk of slip/fall when engaging on top of the barricade, and it limits the shooter’s ability to switch positions (stepping off the end and moving to the opposite side), AND it eats up more material.
View attachment 1161406

This is taller version, which only offers ONE means of engagement. This season, the match director added a staircase and platform beside this obstacle to allow the helper to hand up the rifle - which in both seasons has been criticized as “assistance” which is really defined as “interference,” and frowned upon. This one is on a trailer axle to be moved, with the wheels and tongue removed once positioned - relatively semi-permanent since it takes a bit of work to reinstall the components to move it.
View attachment 1161403

THANKS!

So they appear on average to be about shoulder height and try to avoid a flat top edge, (support). I've got a friend that's a welder, so steel is possible at least for the frame. We've got a fleet of dog agility obstacles (wife's stuff), so i understand completely not wanting to go the wood route if possible.

 

[Varminterror]

THANKS!

So they appear on average to be about shoulder height and try to avoid a flat top edge, (support). I've got a friend that's a welder, so steel is possible at least for the frame. We've got a fleet of dog agility obstacles (wife's stuff), so i understand completely not wanting to go the wood route if possible.

I think shoulder height is too tall, remember, we’re all spread out and leaning over the obstacle when standing beside those obstacles. If I were building it, I’d say “breadbasket” height is about right. 90degrees at the vertex, 45 from the ground, with ~1-1.5ft of front edge, wheels to help move it around, metal frame with a smooth sheathing (shingles are super grippy and make the obstacle easier to shoot), with two toe rails, and an angled peak, not a flattop.

‘Roundabouts 2000, I built ~15-18 complete agility courses. I’ve seen lower-angle A-frames on courses since then on practice courses, but an AKC standard A-frame would be too tall for PRS by about a foot, but the angle would be REALLY close (or could be, since they are adjustable), and the foot slats would be a bit more than commonly used in PRS rooftops. But… so yeah, if you have one of those and it is sufficiently stable with a human on top and is strong enough to hold your weight, set the angle to ~90degrees and use it. You’ll only get to use it for a mounted rooftop, but that’s really the hardest part anyway. Spreading the bases and shooting with it at a lower height might put more leverage on the chains than they can bear, and will be almost too easy for PRS shooting - unless you shoot parallel to ridgeline, then it would be an interesting practice prop again (make 3 positions, left side at the contact zone, middle ridge, right side at contact zone).

 

[Chuck R.]

I think shoulder height is too tall, remember, we’re all spread out and leaning over the obstacle when standing beside those obstacles. If I were building it, I’d say “breadbasket” height is about right. 90degrees at the vertex, 45 from the ground, with ~1-1.5ft of front edge, wheels to help move it around, metal frame with a smooth sheathing (shingles are super grippy and make the obstacle easier to shoot), with two toe rails, and an angled peak, not a flattop.

‘Roundabouts 2000, I built ~15-18 complete agility courses. I’ve seen lower-angle A-frames on courses since then on practice courses, but an AKC standard A-frame would be too tall for PRS by about a foot, but the angle would be REALLY close (or could be, since they are adjustable), and the foot slats would be a bit more than commonly used in PRS rooftops. But… so yeah, if you have one of those and it is sufficiently stable with a human on top and is strong enough to hold your weight, set the angle to ~90degrees and use it. You’ll only get to use it for a mounted rooftop, but that’s really the hardest part anyway. Spreading the bases and shooting with it at a lower height might put more leverage on the chains than they can bear, and will be almost too easy for PRS shooting - unless you shoot parallel to ridgeline, then it would be an interesting practice prop again (make 3 positions, left side at the contact zone, middle ridge, right side at contact zone).

RGR all!

I had a nice A frame built for my wife from welded aluminum, but I don't think she'll let me get away with moving it down to the range. It's too bad cause it is adjustable, and has the slats installed.

 

[Varminterror]

Steel and aluminum diamond plate? You couldn’t touch that in July/August around here.

It can get... um… interesting….

It was cooler this weekend than usual for July in KS. We only got up to 92F, last year it was 105 on Day 1. It actually stays WAY cooler than you’d expect, but when it gets TOO hot, we just throw a bottle of water on the surface between squads and it cools off just fine, and then dries out before anybody climbs up.

The first year he built that rooftop, it was black.

 

[Walkalong]

Bueller?...............Bueller?

 

[Chuck R.]

Bueller?...............Bueller?

Sorry, temporarily ran out of questions....

Now that I've got the ammo sorted out, I'm going to start practicing from positions, so I'll have more shortly

 

[rdnktrkr]

I'm back after family vacations, weekend get-a-ways and prior commitments. I joined the club where we shot the competition and went out Saturday to test the ammo I had on hand, I left 2 Eley boxes on the bench that I wanted to try so I get to go try it again. I was there before we could start shooting 8:30 to set up targets and start getting ready, probably started shooting before 9:00 and stopped around 1:30 or 2:00. I tried 27 different rounds 7 CCIs, 5 S*Ks, 1 Eley, 1 Wolf, 1 Norma, 7 Aquilla some have Eley Prime on the side, 1 American Eagle, 3 Remington and 1 Winchester, this is some I've picked up and some that are vintage. What I found is my gun didn't like all but 3, CCI SV target, Norma TAC, and Eley Target. I shot each at 50yrds using a 1/2" target and only tried the 3 that would stay inside the dot and at 100yrds they all shot about the same. I can get the CCI locally for $3.50 (limit 4), Norma runs around $4.00 and Eley is around $7.00 on the web. I will return and set up some 1" targets at 100yrds and play again then try the 200yrd berm to see if any fall apart after 100.
They had props set up for practicing the upcoming NRL match this weekend and the PRS match the next so I got to watch how they moved and setup on the targets, Maybe I can get enough ammo and my dope to practice with them next time their out.
I noticed inside a covered bench centerfire rifles are no fun to sit next to. I saw some nice rigs, RimX, Vudo, Tikka, and another Bergara and all offered to let me shoot them but I declined knowing I would only want to get another.