TerryCowger
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No problem, I need adult supervision sometimes. lol
Does my drawing make any sense?
Terry
Does my drawing make any sense?
Terry
Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy
teerex.otw
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Terry,
Guess I’m still not getting it…would probably have to see it work for the light to click on, lol.
What do the “wings” index against to keep it from turning ?
r
Guess I’m still not getting it…would probably have to see it work for the light to click on, lol.
What do the “wings” index against to keep it from turning ?
r
TerryCowger
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Details,.....................heck I haven't a clue ?...........Duh !
OK , if you made it that way it wouldn't go down onto the muzzle anyway due to the sight being in the way. (forgot that part)
So when ya cut a notch for the sight it would index the loader?
Sound better?
Terry
OK , if you made it that way it wouldn't go down onto the muzzle anyway due to the sight being in the way. (forgot that part)
So when ya cut a notch for the sight it would index the loader?
Sound better?
Terry
teerex.otw
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Hi Terry,
Indexing off the sight would probably work if this was to be used on only one gun, and if the shot tube never moved (just a few thou. off will hang up a bb).
I’m going to be using this on several guns, at least 3, probably more.
Because of minor differences in threads in both the abutment washer and the shot tube, no two of these are going to locate the magazine tube in exactly the same place with relation to the front sight.
The best I’ve come up with is to use a second pin on the adapter, which will (hopefully) maintain hole alignment.
I’ve attached a pretty ratty sketch, I hope you can make some sense of it.
r
btw, I did that thing making a “well” with tape and filling with epoxy on the front of the 38b tube abutment…this should not leak or come loose !
Indexing off the sight would probably work if this was to be used on only one gun, and if the shot tube never moved (just a few thou. off will hang up a bb).
I’m going to be using this on several guns, at least 3, probably more.
Because of minor differences in threads in both the abutment washer and the shot tube, no two of these are going to locate the magazine tube in exactly the same place with relation to the front sight.
The best I’ve come up with is to use a second pin on the adapter, which will (hopefully) maintain hole alignment.
I’ve attached a pretty ratty sketch, I hope you can make some sense of it.
r
btw, I did that thing making a “well” with tape and filling with epoxy on the front of the 38b tube abutment…this should not leak or come loose !
TerryCowger
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Great drawing Rex, much better than mine.
My thoughts on the whole thing is it needs to be easy and simple.
I have been putting the rubber feed plug into the barrel of mine while I load the feed tube,that keeps the BB's going into the rite hole.
I can load 45 BB's much quicker than pulling the 25 shot assembly out and messing with that "danger spring".
I am also not disturbing the seal at the abutment and possibly causing a leak.
What your making looks alot like a funnel, I haven't had good luck with funnels as they only let a limited amount to pass through the hole at the end then ya get nothing.
Ya cant make the fill tube larger witch would solve that problem, so I don't know?
How about a straw of some sort, then the BB's would be in line and feed one at a time ?
Terry
My thoughts on the whole thing is it needs to be easy and simple.
I have been putting the rubber feed plug into the barrel of mine while I load the feed tube,that keeps the BB's going into the rite hole.
I can load 45 BB's much quicker than pulling the 25 shot assembly out and messing with that "danger spring".
I am also not disturbing the seal at the abutment and possibly causing a leak.
What your making looks alot like a funnel, I haven't had good luck with funnels as they only let a limited amount to pass through the hole at the end then ya get nothing.
Ya cant make the fill tube larger witch would solve that problem, so I don't know?
How about a straw of some sort, then the BB's would be in line and feed one at a time ?
Terry
teerex.otw
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Terry,
Here’s something weird…since you mentioned a straw.
A primer feed tube from a reloading press can be used with bb’s (tube for small size primers).
Just in case you’re not familiar with these, the tube (mine is RCBS) has a 4-way split at one end that is used for picking up primers, and a hairpin clip at the other that holds them in place until tube is seated in the feeder, then just pull the pin, primers drop and get fed.
Don’t see any reason it couldn’t be used w/bb’s.
Just a thought…
r
Here’s something weird…since you mentioned a straw.
A primer feed tube from a reloading press can be used with bb’s (tube for small size primers).
Just in case you’re not familiar with these, the tube (mine is RCBS) has a 4-way split at one end that is used for picking up primers, and a hairpin clip at the other that holds them in place until tube is seated in the feeder, then just pull the pin, primers drop and get fed.
Don’t see any reason it couldn’t be used w/bb’s.
Just a thought…
r
teerex.otw
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But, while we’re on the subject, it would also be possible to use a Ryder shot tube as a “straw”, plug one end, cross drill the other for a hairpin clip,
you can load bb’s a few at a time with a powder funnel (I just tried it, it works), put the pin in until ready to load, position over loading port and pull the pin, bb’s drop, life is good !
r
you can load bb’s a few at a time with a powder funnel (I just tried it, it works), put the pin in until ready to load, position over loading port and pull the pin, bb’s drop, life is good !
r
If you ever get any Marksman BBs from Pyramyd Air, by all means check out the 'speed loader' I showed earlier. It dispenses BBs in a continuous stream- with it a 25 ST (stock or TC Warp Speed version) can be filled to capacity in 5-10 seconds...
teerex.otw
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What is the capacity ?
I saw a Restomod video a while back where Shane was using one of these.
I saw a Restomod video a while back where Shane was using one of these.
teerex.otw
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I’m going to look into this, I’ve been using the old style leather pouches since I was a kid. They work fine once you get the inner flap “trained”, but you sure don’t want to store bb’s in them long-term (leather does horrible things to copper and zinc plating !)
Thanks for the info.
r
Thanks for the info.
r
TerryCowger
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I've been doing a little testing with my short stuff 1938bRR with the modified M25 ST all test were with an air tube .
Both the shot tubes in this test were from a M25 so they all had the same.
1- I tried it "unsealed" and got an average of 267 fps
2- I tried it "sealed" and got and average of 311 fps = 44 fps gain
3- I built a quickey single shot barrel (totally sealed) and still using the air tube, I got an average of 375fps. = 64 fps gain
So what does this mean?
I got a gun that can go either way, single shot or repeater............yea I know the numbers su-k !
Terry
Both the shot tubes in this test were from a M25 so they all had the same.
1- I tried it "unsealed" and got an average of 267 fps
2- I tried it "sealed" and got and average of 311 fps = 44 fps gain
3- I built a quickey single shot barrel (totally sealed) and still using the air tube, I got an average of 375fps. = 64 fps gain
So what does this mean?
I got a gun that can go either way, single shot or repeater............yea I know the numbers su-k !
Terry
teerex.otw
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Hi Terry,
375 is not bad at all for a springer with an air tube. The air tube is always going to be a limiting factor, no way around it.
There are a couple of things I can think of to try, but both would be a bear to build…
One would be to use a tapered chamber sized for a 25-size seal, sized to fit inside of a Red Ryder chamber.
Daisy used a tapered chamber in the 1894, it had, I believe, the smallest piston they made, a fairly weak spring on a short plunger, but a longer shot tube 13 or 14 inches, can’t remember which, and it produced 270-280 fps, mostly by making more efficient use of the air it compressed.
With a “conventional” Daisy I’m sure the piston is still moving after the bb has left the barrel. A good case for this argument would be the Daisy 880 or Crosman 760, they are both bb rockets, with chambers probably smaller than on a Ryder, but the air is more compressed, and the bb gets all of it.
A tapered chamber might help by compressing faster (as the piston moves the chamber gets smaller both in length and diameter).
Another possibility would be a “partially occluded” air tube…a rod secured to the spring anchor and goes through the air tube, it ends about an inch from the abutment face, in effect sealing off air flow until it is at least partially compressed as opposed to compressing from zero as the bb is moving. It would probably be difficult to design though…Anchor end wouldn’t be too bad, but piston with an all-the-way-through air tube might be a booger-bear !
…Just some idle speculation.
r
375 is not bad at all for a springer with an air tube. The air tube is always going to be a limiting factor, no way around it.
There are a couple of things I can think of to try, but both would be a bear to build…
One would be to use a tapered chamber sized for a 25-size seal, sized to fit inside of a Red Ryder chamber.
Daisy used a tapered chamber in the 1894, it had, I believe, the smallest piston they made, a fairly weak spring on a short plunger, but a longer shot tube 13 or 14 inches, can’t remember which, and it produced 270-280 fps, mostly by making more efficient use of the air it compressed.
With a “conventional” Daisy I’m sure the piston is still moving after the bb has left the barrel. A good case for this argument would be the Daisy 880 or Crosman 760, they are both bb rockets, with chambers probably smaller than on a Ryder, but the air is more compressed, and the bb gets all of it.
A tapered chamber might help by compressing faster (as the piston moves the chamber gets smaller both in length and diameter).
Another possibility would be a “partially occluded” air tube…a rod secured to the spring anchor and goes through the air tube, it ends about an inch from the abutment face, in effect sealing off air flow until it is at least partially compressed as opposed to compressing from zero as the bb is moving. It would probably be difficult to design though…Anchor end wouldn’t be too bad, but piston with an all-the-way-through air tube might be a booger-bear !
…Just some idle speculation.
r
I agree that 375 ain't too shabby at all, not from an air tube-equipped repeater. And isn't this the short barreled gun you made a while back? The shorter barrel costs some MV, so this could possibly be tickling 400 fps if using a 'standard' length shot tube...
teerex.otw
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It showed up as being locked this a.m. (“no further replies” etc.)
Terry noticed it too.
r
Terry noticed it too.
r
TerryCowger
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Now that were back on line:
What I was trying to show was the difference between a sealed and unsealed model 25 ST abutment.
I just included the single shot barrel to show the increase in fps with no leaks. (except for that pesky air tube)
So my best number with this gun in repeater format is 311fps and although it's not all that bad, it's not that good either.
When I started this short gun I didn't realize I would loose so much fps by cutting it, but it is what it is so well make it work.
I'm going to get my magnetizer back tomorrow and see if I can magnatize an air tube enough to hold a BB?
Later Terry
What I was trying to show was the difference between a sealed and unsealed model 25 ST abutment.
I just included the single shot barrel to show the increase in fps with no leaks. (except for that pesky air tube)
So my best number with this gun in repeater format is 311fps and although it's not all that bad, it's not that good either.
When I started this short gun I didn't realize I would loose so much fps by cutting it, but it is what it is so well make it work.
I'm going to get my magnetizer back tomorrow and see if I can magnatize an air tube enough to hold a BB?
Later Terry
Terry, I wanted to let you know that after replacing the piston and air tube in my trusty model 104 with a 499B piston that has no provision for an air tube, I tested your #2 single shot muzzleloader carbon fiber shot tube and the gun did 536 fps average over 10 shots using Daisy BBs from Walmart. Using Daisy Match Grade ground shot, it did 564 fps average. This gun has one of my high performance "super springs" in it from the 1st batch of springs I had made in 2018. It has sent a lot of BBs down range!.
The shot tube is now on its way to Shane's house for a workout and hopefully a video.
The shot tube is now on its way to Shane's house for a workout and hopefully a video.
My results with a Terry C. modified Model 25 shot tube.
The host gun is a vintage Model 99 that has been resealed about 1,000 shots ago, with a Cobalt 327 high powered spring and oversized air tube installed (I think 7/64" drilled hole), running with 20wt non-detergent oil, shooting standard, cheap, bought from Wal-Mart Daisy brand BBs.
These bb guns can be fickle and some of my numbers don't make sense in absolute terms, but I believe there is at least value in them for relative terms.
I am concerned that the 30 degree temperature increase is skewing my numbers, but regardless, this is what I noted. Also, it has been my experience that these BB guns increase in velocity after they have 100 shots through them. I am guessing the seals settle in and the spring rotates to a stable position. Unfortunately the following numbers were the first ~20 shots before I made a change, I am guessing these numbers are low.
When it was 50 degrees outside with a new production, Model 25 shot tube I was getting 317 to 327 fps. This was the set-up that was in this gun since it was resealed 1000 shots ago.
By the time I got around to making a Terry C. style modified shot tube it had climbed to 80 degrees outside.
These are the following variations I did:
-I drilled the front cap and installed the brass feed tube, I did NOT epoxy it at all, just reassembled and put the rubber plug in the front to keep the BBs in. I got right around 305 fps, but when I reinstalled my old shot tube that had given me ~317 to 317 fps when it was colder out the speed had dropped to ~305 fps also.
-Next I tried removing the air tube (I cut an old airtube off flush with the front of the plunger seal to close off the hole in the seal face) so it was more like a model 499. That was a joke, the Terry C. modified shot tube was at 120 fps, however the original shot tube was even worse, it was down to 35 fps. The air tube may kill speed in some ways, but it is very necessary for some applications.
-Next I used RTV sealant to plug up all of the air gaps in the part that screws into the abutment seal, the same way Terry C. used epoxy. This did NOT help the fps without the airtube installed.
-I reinstalled the oversized airtube, with the original shot tube that had been giving me 317 to 327 fps, the velocity was down to 289 to 305 fps.
-Finally, I installed the Terry C. style shot tube sealed with RTV. The speed was 303-315 fps. Also, it feed great, without any issues.
In Summary: the Terry C. style shot tube added ~10 to 15 fps. However, it also made loading the BB gun so much easier and I am guessing it will generally help with accuracy (Since I can wrap the front cap with more tape to keep the front of the shot tube from moving around, and really tighten up the shot tube in the rifle since I won't need to remove it for loading.)
The easy loading function alone, would make this modification worth doing, the small speed bump was a nice bonus. I will run it over the chronograph after I have a few 100 rounds through to see where the velocity goes.
Thank you Terry for the great idea and providing links for the hard to locate parts.
Thank you Cobalt327 for bringing the super spring, bored out air tubes, and seals to an easily accessible marketplace. I blame you for starting my collection of and modification to Daisy BB guns. I had totally written off BB guns before reading your posts.
The host gun is a vintage Model 99 that has been resealed about 1,000 shots ago, with a Cobalt 327 high powered spring and oversized air tube installed (I think 7/64" drilled hole), running with 20wt non-detergent oil, shooting standard, cheap, bought from Wal-Mart Daisy brand BBs.
These bb guns can be fickle and some of my numbers don't make sense in absolute terms, but I believe there is at least value in them for relative terms.
I am concerned that the 30 degree temperature increase is skewing my numbers, but regardless, this is what I noted. Also, it has been my experience that these BB guns increase in velocity after they have 100 shots through them. I am guessing the seals settle in and the spring rotates to a stable position. Unfortunately the following numbers were the first ~20 shots before I made a change, I am guessing these numbers are low.
When it was 50 degrees outside with a new production, Model 25 shot tube I was getting 317 to 327 fps. This was the set-up that was in this gun since it was resealed 1000 shots ago.
By the time I got around to making a Terry C. style modified shot tube it had climbed to 80 degrees outside.
These are the following variations I did:
-I drilled the front cap and installed the brass feed tube, I did NOT epoxy it at all, just reassembled and put the rubber plug in the front to keep the BBs in. I got right around 305 fps, but when I reinstalled my old shot tube that had given me ~317 to 317 fps when it was colder out the speed had dropped to ~305 fps also.
-Next I tried removing the air tube (I cut an old airtube off flush with the front of the plunger seal to close off the hole in the seal face) so it was more like a model 499. That was a joke, the Terry C. modified shot tube was at 120 fps, however the original shot tube was even worse, it was down to 35 fps. The air tube may kill speed in some ways, but it is very necessary for some applications.
-Next I used RTV sealant to plug up all of the air gaps in the part that screws into the abutment seal, the same way Terry C. used epoxy. This did NOT help the fps without the airtube installed.
-I reinstalled the oversized airtube, with the original shot tube that had been giving me 317 to 327 fps, the velocity was down to 289 to 305 fps.
-Finally, I installed the Terry C. style shot tube sealed with RTV. The speed was 303-315 fps. Also, it feed great, without any issues.
In Summary: the Terry C. style shot tube added ~10 to 15 fps. However, it also made loading the BB gun so much easier and I am guessing it will generally help with accuracy (Since I can wrap the front cap with more tape to keep the front of the shot tube from moving around, and really tighten up the shot tube in the rifle since I won't need to remove it for loading.)
The easy loading function alone, would make this modification worth doing, the small speed bump was a nice bonus. I will run it over the chronograph after I have a few 100 rounds through to see where the velocity goes.
Thank you Terry for the great idea and providing links for the hard to locate parts.
Thank you Cobalt327 for bringing the super spring, bored out air tubes, and seals to an easily accessible marketplace. I blame you for starting my collection of and modification to Daisy BB guns. I had totally written off BB guns before reading your posts.
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FYI, if someone just wants an easy to acquire, high velocity single shot BB gun, just buy a new production model 499b and install a new production Red Ryder spring. I keep one around in that configuration when I want a little more zip and don't mind the extra noise. I just shot it over the chronograph while I was doing the above tests at 80 degree temperature and I am getting 435 to 438 fps with the best accuracy of any BB gun I own.
As Cobalt327 commented above, he was getting in the ~550 fps range in a single shot with his high powered spring. If you really wanted to hot rod a model 499b you could try one of his super springs, I am guessing you will get a similar 550 fps velocity (though I would wonder about the longevity of such a set-up, the factory Red Ryder spring really bangs the abutment in my model 499b).
As Cobalt327 commented above, he was getting in the ~550 fps range in a single shot with his high powered spring. If you really wanted to hot rod a model 499b you could try one of his super springs, I am guessing you will get a similar 550 fps velocity (though I would wonder about the longevity of such a set-up, the factory Red Ryder spring really bangs the abutment in my model 499b).
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TerryCowger
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MG81 Thanks for all the kind words about the design, I am very pleased that you guys are finding it worth the effort. (1938BRR is next)
Do you think maybe your gun is a little off due to it being taken apart so many times? Have you done a leak test on the ST, just a little leak can cause the fps to drop?
Maybe when it gets settled in the numbers will go up, although theirs nothing wrong with what your getting now, things can always be improved.
I wonder how many people have hit the 500 mark, much less the 560's those are VERY good numbers and VERY hard to get to. (at least for me)
I would say if Mark spent some time with that gun he would be into the 600's and that's unheard of with a "single cock" gun.
I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to see what Shane gets out of that barrel ?
Terry
Do you think maybe your gun is a little off due to it being taken apart so many times? Have you done a leak test on the ST, just a little leak can cause the fps to drop?
Maybe when it gets settled in the numbers will go up, although theirs nothing wrong with what your getting now, things can always be improved.
I wonder how many people have hit the 500 mark, much less the 560's those are VERY good numbers and VERY hard to get to. (at least for me)
I would say if Mark spent some time with that gun he would be into the 600's and that's unheard of with a "single cock" gun.
I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to see what Shane gets out of that barrel ?
Terry
teerex.otw
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Terry,
Are you going to try the “warp-speed” type tube in the 1938b ?
My project with this slowed down some due to a busy schedule and minor snags with fitting some other parts.
I’m not really trying for max. velocity on this one, but am trying to see how much accuracy I can wring out of it.
I think I’ve got the design issues sorted out (including making the original rear sight adjustable for both windage and elevation…man, that was a beast to
do !)
Got a few more things to make, and still have to figure out what to use for a trigger return spring.
I will definitely be looking forward to seeing how yours works out, as well as whatever you come up with next !
r
Are you going to try the “warp-speed” type tube in the 1938b ?
My project with this slowed down some due to a busy schedule and minor snags with fitting some other parts.
I’m not really trying for max. velocity on this one, but am trying to see how much accuracy I can wring out of it.
I think I’ve got the design issues sorted out (including making the original rear sight adjustable for both windage and elevation…man, that was a beast to
do !)
Got a few more things to make, and still have to figure out what to use for a trigger return spring.
I will definitely be looking forward to seeing how yours works out, as well as whatever you come up with next !
r
The limiting factor to the 499B MV is the shot tube length. It's only 9" long so even with a super spring in it, the MV is not significantly higher than it is with the 1938B spring.
It would be so easy for Daisy to have used the 880 rear sight blade on the 1938B Red Ryder!
teerex.otw
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Mark,
Yes, it would have been easy for them, not so much for us…
How did you drill the original sight ?
I tried it and couldn’t get the bit to cut (these sights appear to be made of spring steel, even on the ones I’ve removed to install peeps the spot welds were tough to file !)
I went a different route, I “Dremmeled”slots on either side with a .150” web in the center, then made a sight blade out of thin angle that hooks over the top, d&t for two 4-40 screws…not a lot of range, but hopefully enough.
Yes, it would have been easy for them, not so much for us…
How did you drill the original sight ?
I tried it and couldn’t get the bit to cut (these sights appear to be made of spring steel, even on the ones I’ve removed to install peeps the spot welds were tough to file !)
I went a different route, I “Dremmeled”slots on either side with a .150” web in the center, then made a sight blade out of thin angle that hooks over the top, d&t for two 4-40 screws…not a lot of range, but hopefully enough.
