Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

[cobalt327]

I'm happy to see all the new guns, and even a few new faces stopping by- welcome all! I've been a bit under the weather lately, but hopefully things will look up soon.

Harquebus, I'll attach a couple photos with nomenclature that may help. Also, on the No. 1938 of yours that's spitting a BB 10 feet, there's a very good chance the abutment seal has come loose and is riding back and forth on the air tube. When this happens, there's a huge air leak created. To check if the barrel seal is loose, remove the shot tube and while looking into the empty barrel using a light, work the lever. Not enough to cock the gun, you just want to make the piston drop away from the abutment. If you see a hole appear when the lever is moved, that's the barrel seal dropping down into the compression chamber. If this is the case, you can replace the seals, or you could even reattach the original abutment seal if it's not too worn out. Some info on this can be seen here: http://forum.daisymuseum.com/model-96-repair_topic9935_post42734.html#42734.

 

[Harquebus]

Thanks.
I guess I need to fab up one of those Daisy spring compression tools (sigh).

I have so far read a little discussion here about the Model 25 shot tube but not so much info about the whole gun. I want to be able to coax 400+ FPS out of it too, when I get one. Of course I had read that back in the day they were the hardest hitting Daisy airguns and the pump action is unique and convenient. Is the Model 25 not the gun to 'go after' and I should look into another lever gun instead?

I won't be molesting the Red Ryder 1938. It's too nice.

 

[Tommy299]

Sorry for the delay in replying. It sounds like you've built a fine shooter! The 953 front sight has a larger diameter, so I think that may be why they warn against using it with the 5899 peep sight, but the difference isn't all that great- so it could work as long as there's sufficient elevation adjustment.

On accuracy, if there's oil in the shot tube, accuracy will suffer so be sure the shot tube is oil free.

The grease on the spring will cut down on vibration, but it also lowers MV, so if you choose to use it, only use as much as is absolutely necessary unless you aren't concerned with maximizing muzzle velocity.

I bet your stock modifications have helped a lot! The short length of pull on the Cowboy was one thing I couldn't seem to get used to.

 

[teerex.otw]

Harquebus,
I remember seeing earlier in this thread where some attempts were made to hot-rod a 25, including with a shortened Cobalt spring, and that the results were disappointing. The 25 plunger is shorter, and you can’t add much more spring (or spacers, for that matter) without running into spring-binding issues. It seems like there were some cocking problems as well.
The lever guns are much simpler to work on, and respond better to mods.
Have you considered one of the “wide-body” models ? They really do have a lot to offer; closer to adult size, a bit heavier, (which helps with that weird recoil impulse), sturdier construction, they can be readily adapted to the 25 shot tube. The models 95, 96, and 99…probably the others as well, use the same piston and abutment seal as the 25. It’s smaller in diameter than the Ryder, but also lighter with less chamber wall contact, and I’m guessing that less resistance would equal faster compression…and really, that has to have something to do with it, these things don’t use all of the air they compress. The chamber capacity is around 1.056 cu. in., while the shot tube capacity is about .292 cu.in. Even losing some volume due to compression, that’s a lot of difference. And it’s a safe bet that a lot of that air exhausts after “Elvis has left the building”, so I believe the faster the piston moves, the higher the peak compression (at the point the bb leaves the barrel) will be, and as a result, the higher the velocity will be…at least it seems to work out that way. I have a 96 with a Cobalt spring and overbore air tube, and it’s the fastest Daisy springer I own.
Just my suggestion though, best of luck with whatever you decide !

 

[Tommy299]

I thought about what you said about the 953 globe being bigger and realized that you were referring to the OD not the ID. So I did not buy it, and made one from scratch to OD of the 499b globe. Used a Sharpie marker top and that bondo with the fiberglass (hairball).

It would have been better if I had a 1/2” drill to chuck it into but my drill was too small. Frustrating to do by hand and keep it round! I would call it “almost round”. Anyway, after some practice I shot 3 groups of 5 that went from 0.40 to 0.85 and averaged 0.64”. The 0.40 was a gift but I do get a lot of 0.60 - 0.65 groups now. I would say it is a 0.70 gun at 5 meters. Happy!

Just to find out I made a second glove larger, at 0.75” OD. Very little daylight around it and did nit do as well. So, stick with the 499b dimensions of 0.62” OD and 0.43” ID. The length has to be a little shorter than the 1.05” on the Daisy because the marker cap begins to taper after 0.75”.

I will send photos when I find out how to upload them.

 

[cobalt327]

According to my notes, when I measured the globe inserts for the "953" front sight, they were a little over 0.60" while the 499-type globe uses inserts that are close to 0.50".

When I say 953 front sight, I'm referring to this one:

 

[Tommy299]

According to my notes, when I measured the globe inserts for the "953" front sight, they were a little over 0.60" while the 499-type globe uses inserts that are close to 0.50".

When I say 953 front sight, I'm referring to this one:
View attachment 1160387

That would put the outside diameter of the 953 at about 0.7" to 0.72" all else being equal to the 499b. I tried out 0.75" with a homemade globe and it did not work. But mine is a bubble gum and bailing wire job and can't take any inserts. I am done with this thing for the time being, but I do think that results with a Red Ryder would have been better, as the Sheridan was so bad to start with. That said the darned thing is very smooth to shoot now and the sights are easy to line up. But you need to use the big Marksman bbs and sort for the biggest ones.

There is a guy on Ebay selling a model 25 shot tube/magazine setup that is claimed to be "tighter". He also sells the barrel alone for only $17.95 or slightly more in stainless. If i can get a new end cap from somewhere i might try it someday......

 

[teerex.otw]

That would put the outside diameter of the 953 at about 0.7" to 0.72" all else being equal to the 499b. I tried out 0.75" with a homemade globe and it did not work. But mine is a bubble gum and bailing wire job and can't take any inserts. I am done with this thing for the time being, but I do think that results with a Red Ryder would have been better, as the Sheridan was so bad to start with. That said the darned thing is very smooth to shoot now and the sights are easy to line up. But you need to use the big Marksman bbs and sort for the biggest ones.

There is a guy on Ebay selling a model 25 shot tube/magazine setup that is claimed to be "tighter". He also sells the barrel alone for only $17.95 or slightly more in stainless. If i can get a new end cap from somewhere i might try it someday......

I got one of these tubes to adapt to a 95b…quality looks good, but there are a couple of things you should know.
It’s longer than a standard Ryder tube, by about .300” on the tube I compared it to (I have no idea how that’s going to compare to the Sheridan).
It’s also smaller o.d. than the Daisy tube, .250” vs .260” (they include a strip of self-adhesive shim material to wrap around the ends to make it fit).
Again, I don’t know how this is going to compare to the Sheridan.
I slugged the bores of both, the new tube is dead-on .1750”, a new Daisy seamless tube was .1785”
I also put the mic on a few current daisy bb’s (the standard ones you can get anywhere), and they’re hovering in the mid range between .171” to .172”.
I don’t have any of the Avanti bb’s on hand (but others on here have measured them before).
Hope this is helpful.
Rex

 

[TerryCowger]

Don't know if you all seen this ?
I think it's worth a look.
Terry

 

[Tommy299]

I got one of these tubes to adapt to a 95b…quality looks good, but there are a couple of things you should know.
It’s longer than a standard Ryder tube, by about .300” on the tube I compared it to (I have no idea how that’s going to compare to the Sheridan).
It’s also smaller o.d. than the Daisy tube, .250” vs .260” (they include a strip of self-adhesive shim material to wrap around the ends to make it fit).
Again, I don’t know how this is going to compare to the Sheridan.
I slugged the bores of both, the new tube is dead-on .1750”, a new Daisy seamless tube was .1785”
I also put the mic on a few current daisy bb’s (the standard ones you can get anywhere), and they’re hovering in the mid range between .171” to .172”.
I don’t have any of the Avanti bb’s on hand (but others on here have measured them before).
Hope this is helpful.
Rex

Thank you for the infotmation! BTW Tom Gaylord at Pyramid Air reported Avanti Precision Ground Shot to be .173” to .1735” in a blog about four years ago.

 

[teerex.otw]

Thank you for the infotmation! BTW Tom Gaylord at Pyramid Air reported Avanti Precision Ground Shot to be .173” to .1735” in a blog about four years ago.

Looking back, I see I failed to mention a couple of things..,First; my tube is the stainless one, the other appears to be carbon fiber, which is probably different. (I chose stainless because I’m familiar with it, and, from what I’ve heard, you need diamond tools to work on c.f., and the dust is dangerous).
Also, I don’t have a way to get an accurate o.a.l., but using a Starrett scale and the depth gauge on my caliper, looks like 11.150” (+/- a few thou.)

 

[TerryCowger]

Rex did you get the tube that is thick wall?
I see he has a listing for a 20" tube that looks to be very thick?
Also how soothe is the inside, is it polished or raw?
Thanks T.C.

 

[teerex.otw]

Rex did you get the tube that is thick wall?
I see he has a listing for a 20" tube that looks to be very thick?
Also how soothe is the inside, is it polished or raw?
Thanks T.C.

Terry,
I haven’t seen anything on a 20” tube (guess I have to go back and do some looking), the only ones i’ve seen are the c.f. and stainless replacements for the 25.
The inside of mine has a really nice finish, and a small but well-done crown at both ends (I’m gonna’ hate having to cut one end off to adapt this to a Ryder abutment for the 95b.
Wall thickness on mine should work out to .0375” (if I got the math right).
Is it the same outfit selling the 20” tube, and if so, wonder if he could give an o.d. ?
r

 

[TerryCowger]

Here's what I was looking at ?
Looks to be the same guy ?
Be nice if he gave the ID & OD of each.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2853447314...-9cc6-e65697808de8|iid:1|vlpname:vlp_homepage

 

[teerex.otw]

Here's what I was looking

Here's what I was looking at ?
Looks to be the same guy ?
Be nice if he gave the ID & OD of each.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/285344731492?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=777008&algo=PERSONAL.TOPIC&ao=1&asc=20221115143056&meid=3f0510a6746f44309aabaf2d11320289&pid=101612&rk=1&rkt=1&itm=285344731492&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=4375194&algv=RecentlyViewedItemsV2&_trksid=p4375194.c101612.m4236&_trkparms=parentrq:3ad934be1890a8cc3b65c3c9ffff24ae|pageci:d830df06-1e5c-11ee-9cc6-e65697808de8|iid:1|vlpname:vlp_homepage


View attachment 1160998

He does give an o.d. in the description (.310”), but no i.d.
That 20” length is intriguing also, working on Daisy springers, you could probably make 2 shot tubes out of it…one each for a Ryder and a Buck, two Ryders using a short sleeve at the muzzle end…possibly even a long-barreled Ryder !
Something else to ponder.


at ?
Looks to be the same guy ?
Be nice if he gave the ID & OD of each.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/285344731492?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=777008&algo=PERSONAL.TOPIC&ao=1&asc=20221115143056&meid=3f0510a6746f44309aabaf2d11320289&pid=101612&rk=1&rkt=1&itm=285344731492&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=4375194&algv=RecentlyViewedItemsV2&_trksid=p4375194.c101612.m4236&_trkparms=parentrq:3ad934be1890a8cc3b65c3c9ffff24ae|pageci:d830df06-1e5c-11ee-9cc6-e65697808de8|iid:1|vlpname:vlp_homepage


View attachment 1160998[/

 

[teerex.otw]

Well, that came out strange…what the heck did I hit ?

 

[TerryCowger]

Your computer skills are far above my pay grade !
So long story short .........."I haven't a clue" ?
Anyway, I usually go for the ID first, if I don't see what I'm looking for the OD doesn't really matter.
He does list it as a BB gun barrel so I gave him the benefit of doubt, but I wouldn't but it with out knowing what the ID is.
As I'm sure you know, a tight boar can mean "unusable" if to tight. Like the Chinese are good about calling something a 1/4" when It's actually 6mm.
If your working with close tolerances like the fit between the BB and the ID of the barrel a few thou can make a BIG difference.
I was thinking the same as you about making two barrels or one long one, or maybe putting two together ? Hummmmm 40 inch barrel ?
Terry

 

[teerex.otw]

Your computer skills are far above my pay grade !
So long story short .........."I haven't a clue" ?
Anyway, I usually go for the ID first, if I don't see what I'm looking for the OD doesn't really matter.
He does list it as a BB gun barrel so I gave him the benefit of doubt, but I wouldn't but it with out knowing what the ID is.
As I'm sure you know, a tight boar can mean "unusable" if to tight. Like the Chinese are good about calling something a 1/4" when It's actually 6mm.
If your working with close tolerances like the fit between the BB and the ID of the barrel a few thou can make a BIG difference.
I was thinking the same as you about making two barrels or one long one, or maybe putting two together ? Hummmmm 40 inch barrel ?
Terry

Terry,
I agree, a few thou. can make a lot of difference.
I don’t know about a 40” barrel though,
back around page 30 of this thread Hinz57 was putting 499 shot tubes end-to end. Two tubes (18”) was getting good velocities, but when he added a 3rd tube, velocity started dropping…maybe it just passed the point of peak compression, maybe compressed air leaking around the bb and getting in front of it was slowing things down (the bb still has to move the air in front of it out of the way, if you increase the density of this air, even for a few milliseconds it might have some effect…perhaps…who knows ?)
Anyway, it appears there is a “sweet spot” there somewhere, probably in the 18”-22” range…but I don’t have the skills to calc. this one, only to experiment.
Also, I took a good long look at the new tube and found (gasp !) a weld seam inside…still a better fit than an o.e.m. tube, bb still travels smoothly with less gap, but proceed at your own risk.
r

 

[TerryCowger]

I guess he didn't say seamless did he ?
I send him a message through evil bay about the ID of the 20" and haven't gotten an answer yet?
(40 inch barrel, would add 11" to my long gun..........wow! )
The barrel for my long gun is 29" long and shoots in the 460's with no air tube and a stock RR spring.
But it is a single shot, I don't know what it would be if it had the air tube and repeater stuff inside it ?
I'm sure lower, maybe in the high 300's ?
Terry

 

[teerex.otw]

I guess he didn't say seamless did he ?
I send him a message through evil bay about the ID of the 20" and haven't gotten an answer yet?
(40 inch barrel, would add 11" to my long gun..........wow! )
The barrel for my long gun is 29" long and shoots in the 460's with no air tube and a stock RR spring.
But it is a single shot, I don't know what it would be if it had the air tube and repeater stuff inside it ?
I'm sure lower, maybe in the high 300's ?
Terry

The air tube would have to slow things down a good bit, but a sealed magazine tube like you designed probably wouldn’t (at least not much).
I’ve done 3 so far, 2 in 25 tubes, and one in a 1938b. The most noticeable thing is that they are all very consistent shooters with not much vertical stringing. With the standard gravity-feed tubes I see a lot more, especially out at about 60’, it even makes a difference whether or not the feed slot in the top of the abutment is filled or empty (I guess clogged with bb’s means less air escapes…or something).
My current project is a 95b, it’s going to get a feed tube, but I’m going to run it under the shot tube (abutment installed upside-down) with a 499b piston and no air tube…if this works, I should get decent velocity with no chance of double-feeds. The magnet being on top will hold one bb in place, but is not strong enough to pull a second one until the muzzle is raised.
…Guess we’ll see what we’ll see.
r

 

[BBGunn]

Hi folks, first post on this board. I have been reading through the pages and learning about the internal workings of these simple rifles. You all have done a fine job experimenting and enhancing the performance of these various spring powered Daisy rifles. Thanks for sharing your efforts. Helps folks like me learn more quickly.

I was communicating with Mark via 'Ebay contact' a few days ago. I mentioned that I had ordered my first Daisy 499B and was waiting for it's arrival. I mentioned I had been reading this board and would join this thread as soon as I got my rifle.

I know I am not telling you folks anything you don't already know..., but I am blown away at the accuracy of this smooth-bore! After a dozen shots to get a 10yd zero I started in with groups and was completely amazed at how well this little rifle groups BBs! The two targets shown below are the very first 5-shot groups out of the new 499B! I can't wait to see what kind of groups it will achieve once I increase the LOP and get more familiar with the rifle!

When I ordered the rifle I had every intention of ditching the peep-sight and installing a red-dot. But, after shooting the rifle today I see no reason not to stay with the OEM peep!

At any rate, I can't believe I have gone full circle in my shooting interest and at 65yrs I am back to a Daisy BB-gun once again!


First day with new 499B.




Outstanding accuracy!

 

[TerryCowger]

That's some pretty good shootin you did, I'm guessing the dots are about 1.5" ?
At 30 foot those are really good groups IMHO.
If you haven't already ask Mark what BB's work best in the 499, it makes a big difference in power and accuracy.
Terry

 

[teerex.otw]

That is good shooting !
What are you going to do to increase l.o.p. on yours ?
After adjusting that, with a little “break in” time and some match grade bbs. I think you’ll be amazed at what you can do offhand as well !
These are great little guns, the only thing I have that even comes close to mine is a multi-pump, and I believe that’s only because of the longer barrel and nearly zero recoil.
As a side note; I’m constantly amazed by how many people in our age bracket rediscover how much fun these are !

 

[BBGunn]

Thanks for the compliments regarding the groups. During the course of my 65yrs I have competed in all sorts of competitive shooting events. I have three Oregon State titles. Though.., those were when I was much younger and could 'see' the targets. I can still 'pull trigger' as well as the average guy/gal.

I haven't decided exactly how I want to add LOP. I might square off the butt and add a thick recoil pad, or I might just add some closed cell foam about an 1" thick. Considering how I am using the rifle, the butt pad doesn't need to be really durable, just add some length.

After I spend some time shooting and breaking-in the rifle, I will likely look at a slight modification to increase velocity. I don't really want 450fps like I could get buying Mark's spring assembly (Ebay). I would like to see the rifle at about 300-325fps. I'm open to learning from you guy's experience on how I can achieve the velocity I want??? I'll get out my Chrony in the coming weeks and see what the rifle is shooting currently.

Again, great thread you guys have here, I am still reading through it.

 

[TerryCowger]

I used part of an old stool leg to get this just where my buddy wanted it. If I remember it wound up about 14-14.5" ? He's tall...............



On another note I got a return email from the guy selling shot tubes on eBay about the I.D. of the 20" part he is selling.
I will post my question and his answer to me.
Terry

(My question)
Your previous message
Can you tell me the I.D. of this tubing?
Can you supply it in a custom size ?
Thanks Terry

(The answer)
Depends on the application. .176" - 0.0 / +.003 generally.
We can machine custom barrels per customer specs. at our discretion but not currently suppling any material stock for purchase.
Thanks -

So I'm not really sure what all that means ?
He also has 1938bRR's listed for 99.99 that they contend will shoot 400FPS out of the box ?
Anyone have one of these ?
Terry