Range Drills for multiple targets (with pics)

[David E]

Instead of trying to keep other dying threads alive, I thought I'd post my recent range results here. Much of the commentary is the same as the other threads, but maybe it'll make more sense with pictures.

I finally got the pictures to upload.

If you are presented with 3 equally hostile targets, the prudent man shoots them all ONCE before shooting them again.

For example, if I had 3 equal threats at 5 yds spaced 1 foot apart at shoulders, I'd go 1,1,2,1,1 and serve thirds (4ths/5th's, etc ) to anyone needing them. But how fast can you put one shot on each?

It doesn't have to take that long...........if you practice.

Many people respond with speculated time frames for them to perform this or that.......yet, they've never tried it. Or, if they did, they used a second hand or maybe a stopwatch. You can't learn as much with those timing methods.

Here's what I did recently at the range with a .38 snub

and a .40 1911:

Using a shot timer, I began with a .38 snubby, (starting with hand on gun) At the signal, I fired one shot on EACH of the 3 targets:

My best run was this:

.65
.27
.25
------
1.18


Changing to a 1911 Govt chambered in .40 using factory ammo, starting again with hand on gun in a holster, I fired one shot on each of the 3 targets:

.59
.21
.16
------
.96

Since I'd do a self start, subtract .25 for my reaction time to the beep. Add at least 1/2 to 3/4 of a second to badguy #3 to react to something going on he didn't expect and another 1/4 to 1/2 second for him to execute a counter-move. It might take him a full second to do something....after he's already been hit by bullet #1

Let's do the math real quick: Taking the 1911 string, subtract .25 from .96 = .71. Add .50 (his time to figure out something is wrong and another .50 for him to do something about it. My typical "split" time (time between shots) at that distance is .20 or less for a total time of .91. So we discover he's been hit TWICE (going 1,1,2,1,1) before his full second has elapsed.

One guy in another multiple target thread was saying he preferred TRIPLE taps on each target before moving on. He said it took him 10-14 seconds.

I set up a drill he referenced that placed an IPSC target at 10 o'clock, 12 o'clock and 2 o'clock, all 7 yds from me in the center.

The pictures both show the center target.

I started on the center target (the slowest, most difficult sequence) and did single shots, double taps, then triple taps. My main intent (aside from seeing how fast I could do this) was to determine how much time target #3 had to shoot me. Keep in mind, I was reacting to a beep, adding .15-.25 to the times, as I'd self-start in a real situation. Also, add some time for badguy #3, as he'd have to figure out what was going on and what he was going to do about it, if anything.

Gun used was a Glock 21 SF in .45 acp. Start position was gun holstered, hand ON gun.

Shot timer used. Shooter reacted to the beep of the timer.

Target used: 3 IPSC targets.

First drill: single shots to each target. Shooter engaged center target first on all strings.

Best string: .77, .48, .64 = 1.89

This means that the 3rd target got hit in 1.89 seconds after the start signal.

I did the drill 4 times. Here is the center target:

The outside hit was the first run. On most people, it would've broken the humerous.

Here's the right target:

Left target:

Except for the very first shot, all rounds were pretty well centered hits.

 

[David E]

Second drill: 2 shots each target before moving on to the next.

Best run: .75, .17, / .48, .17, / .54, .18 = 2.29. In this string, the 3rd target got the first hit at 2.11

Here's the first run double tap hits:

Center target:

Right target:

Left target:

Third Drill: 3 shots each target before moving on to the next.

Best run: .71, .21, .18, / .40, .20, .17. / .54, .20, .17 = 2.78 First shot on 3rd target @ 2.41
The time difference between #3 getting hit with single shots vs. double taps was 22/100ths or slightly less than 1/4 of a second.

But the time difference for hitting the 3rd target between firing one shot each vs. 3 shots each was 52/100ths, or slighly more than 1/2 second. Many will think that 1/2 second isn't that long, but it can be decisive......either in your favor or against it. This depends how much importance you give a 1/2 second in a dynamic life and death situation with people actively trying to kill you.

Another poster basically said that he'd engage #1 until he was no longer a threat, totally disregarding #2 and #3 until #1 was out of the picture. He even admitted he may run out of ammo on #1.

Are you willing to run your gun dry on target #1 or #2 ? Or would you rather put at least one shot into each of them first?

It's your call.

Which method do you think works best for you? Go to the range and find out !

 

[leadaddict]

I love it! Great data. Thanks for posting.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Good shooting but for practical purposes it amounts to parlor tricks at the shooting range.

Cardboard targets don't interact with you. They don't move or shoot back. There are no ambiguous threat cues to detect.

Multiple assailants don't have "split times." Their effort is focused on a single target, and their "best run" will beat yours every time, especially if you stand there like a cardboard IPSC target.

 

[smince]

Try it with three live people and AirSoft gas blow back guns

 

[Keauxbi]

On your first drill, did you go back and compare times to double tapping each target? How accurate were your shots? Were they all lethal hits?

My best run was this:1.18

What was your worst run?

On your second drill from the single shot best time to double tap best time was .4 seconds. If your third target got hit 1.89 seconds after the start that means another 1.89 before you returned to the first target or third target the second time? 3.78 for three targets to get two shots?

Another poster basically said that he'd engage #1 until he was no longer a threat, totally disregarding #2 and #3 until #1 was out of the picture. He even admitted he may run out of ammo on #1.

I agree. If my first shot did not eliminate the first threat, I'd continue to pump him with lead until he was no longer a threat. With single shots to each, you shoot at one threat and then disregard him until it's his turn again.

 

[Fred Fuller]

And practice standing still all the while too?

No thanks...

lpl

 

[SIRVEYR666]

David,
Don't let some of these people get you down. It's easy to speculate about feats, but things are very different when you put a timer on them. As you know, the timer is a great training tool. Keep up the good work.

 

[David E]

Good shooting but for practical purposes it amounts to parlor tricks at the shooting range.

No, it's a specific drill that can be replicated by anyone else to run and see how they do. This drill wasn't MY idea, it was someone else's. The skill emphasized the most in this drill is target acquisition, as the targets are spread pretty far apart. Is that a skill to address and improve upon for defensive purposes? Most thinking folks agree that it is.

Cardboard targets don't interact with you. They don't move or shoot back. There are no ambiguous threat cues to detect.

No, but it's hard to get volunteers for this drill.

Multiple assailants don't have "split times." Their effort is focused on a single target, and their "best run" will beat yours every time, especially if you stand there like a cardboard IPSC target.

Obviously, you totally missed the point of the drill: to build target acquisition skills along with comparing the time it takes to get to the third target. Badguys DO have reaction times, usually, so seeing how long it takes to get to #3 is a valid pursuit.

I may have my wife/children with me, so I won't be wanting to move from them, or maybe I can't move, depending upon other conditions. I spoke to a guy that has a full-length leg brace yesterday, so he doesn't have the option to move.

I'm constantly amused by "armchair commandoes" that always assume that cover is always a mere step away and that there is always the option to move.

So, since you don't like MY drill, perhaps you could favor us all with what YOU do instead....

 

[David E]

Try it with three live people and AirSoft gas blow back guns

The problem with this is, everyone knows in advance why they are there and what they're supposed to do.

Were this a real situation, much of the effectiveness would depend on the surprise factor of the would-be victim launching into an all out counter attack that was totally unexpected by the street scum.

 

[David E]

Worst time, the first run, was 2.14, followed by a 1.97 and a 1.91. I used a gun I'm not that familiar with, tho.

If your third target got hit 1.89 seconds after the start that means another 1.89 before you returned to the first target or third target the second time?

No, it'd be quicker. Altho I didn't do this, it's not hard to utilize the times achieved for the splits and transitions to determine a typical time: 1.89 to third shot followed by a second shot on the same target with a .17 split followed by a .46 and .47 transition to the other two. Total time would be about 2.99 for all targets to get hit twice going 1,1,2,1,1

I am going back to the range Tuesday, to work on, ironically, transition drills. So if there are any other questions or drill suggestions, please let me know.

 

[Fred Fuller]

perhaps you could favor us all with what YOU do instead....

David E,

I'm not trying to give you a hard time- just trying to shift your thinking toward getting off the X! Take a look at the sticky on drills at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=282024 and see how many of them are moving drills.

As to what we (my wife and I) do: When circumstances allow (U or V shaped berms on a flat range with no one else there), we shoot moving targets while the shooter is also on the move. An old push lawn mower chassis with a target frame bolted on and a pull rope, or an overhead zip line with carboard box targets draped with an old tee shirt, supported by an inflated balloon on a wire loop with a pull cord, provide the moving targets.

In a gunfight no one will be standing flatfooted and neither will the opposition. You don't need a million dollar training complex to practice, but you do need a safe flat range, a completely safety conscious shooter and target operator and no bystanders. This is NOT something to be taken lightly where safety is concerned...

Well planned FoF scenarios with Airsoft gear can also work very well, as was mentioned earlier. Find yourself a copy of the book Training At The Speed Of Life ( http://www.armiger.net/ ) and/or take something like John Farnam's FoF class ( http://www.defense-training.com/courses/forceonforce.html ) for how-to material. Or train anywhere that does good FoF work for pointers.

Static shooter + static targets = ballistic masturbation, once the essential lessons of safety and handgun manipulation have been mastered. Gunfights are dynamic events, training to survive a gunfight needs to be a dynamic event as well. Why do some of us harp on training, training, training so much? Because first tier trainers TEACH this stuff, that's why! Look at these class descriptions:

http://www.defense-training.com/courses/advanced.html
Advanced Handgun
The Advanced Handgun course is intended for graduates of the Basic Handgun course. Because the basics are only covered by a review, beginning students may find themselves in the uncomfortable position of being expected to know things that they do not. To avoid this situation, which is unpleasant for everyone, students which have graduated from other Basic Handgun programs are encouraged to contact DTI directly to determine if all the prerequisities for this course have been covered. Beginning students are strongly encouraged to attend a Basic Handgun class before attending the Advanced class.

Subject covered in the Advanced Handgun class include:
Review of SAFE gun handling and range safety
Review of legal and moral aspects of defensive shooting
Review of handgun ammunition types and capabilities
Basic/revue range exercises, administrative and tactical
Interview stance
Draw
Grip
Weaver stance
Trigger manipulation
First shot
Multiple shots
Reloading
Standard
Military
Stoppage reduction
Initial
Extended
Covering suspects at gunpoint
Verbal challenge, low and high intensity
Reholstering
Carrying concealed handguns, options, techniques of employment
Close range shooting, shove-shoot, unsighted fire, recommended impact points, shooting from the ground
Cover and movement, roll-out technique, retreat techniques
Team exercises, working with a partner in a tactical situation, coordination, team synergy
Moving with a gun in hand, accident avoidance
Injured-limb drill/one-handed shooting, shooting, reloading, stoppage reduction, all using only one hand
Pivots, left, right, reverse
Back-up guns, carry options, employment
Advanced low-light drills, with flashlight, cover, and movement
=======================================
http://www.yfainc.com/courses.html#handgun2

TACTICAL HANDGUN - STAGE II

This course starts by assuming the student is capable of performing all exercises done in the Stage I course ON DEMAND, including the ability to operate a backup pistol (for those clients who carry two pistols. Prior training in backup pistol techniques is mandatory for those wishing to operate two pistols in this course.) After a brief review, the course continues by compounding the problems encountered in the Stage I class, adding such elements as target angles, vital zone definition under stress, one-handed acquisition and operation, increased speed, longer distances, multiple moving target and dim light/flashlight scenarios. Stage I Handgun is a prerequisite to this course.

Ammunition requirement is 800 rounds, and 150 rounds for a backup pistol if used.
====================================================
http://www.gunsite.com/classes_pistol.html

350 Intermediate Defensive Pistol
Intermediate Defensive Pistol is a natural follow-up to what is learned in the 250 Defensive Pistol class. In 350 we review the “250” material and quickly proceed on to advanced gun-handling skills. Then we push you for faster time-on-target. You will shoot on the move and on moving target arrays, and you will greatly increase your tactical skills. You will train in more exciting simulators, both indoor and outdoor for five days and two nights.
In 350 we introduce force-on-force training. You will use non-lethal munitions to solve problems involving walking, talking, thinking “bad guys”! It’s the most realistic training offered anywhere, and we want you to have the very best!
This is a great class for recurrent training, to polish skills that have eroded since your last class.
Cost: $1648
Duration: 5 days
Prerequisite: 250 Defensive Pistol
Ammunition: 1,000 rounds of training ammo, 200 rounds of frangible for simulators
=====================================================

fwiw,

lpl

 

[BullfrogKen]

David,

Those are good drills to know your speed, and how much time you need to do something.


But remember, that's where the drill ends.


But be careful you don't make assumptions that static, square range work correlates directly to real-world success.

 

[smince]

Were this a real situation, much of the effectiveness would depend on the surprise factor of the would-be victim launching into an all out counter attack that was totally unexpected by the street scum.

Uhm, yeah...I'll bet you really surprised those stationary cardboard targets...

You really need to attend a few properly set-up Force-on-Force drills.

 

[David E]

But remember, that's where the drill ends.

Of course. It's a DRILL that emphasizes awkward target acquisition.

But be careful you don't make assumptions that static, square range work correlates directly to real-world success.

I'M not the one that made that assumption ! Everyone telling me it's wrong or worthless did!

However, I will add if you can't do it on a "static, square range," then what in the world makes you think you can do it when things suddenly start moving at a rapid pace?

 

[David E]

You really need to attend a few properly set-up Force-on-Force drills.

Um, yeah, maybe I already have....

Why is it people assume that you have no training when you post something that that they think disagrees with their own ideas ?

Or if you post a drill with pictures they scream "it's not real world training" and therefore, totally worthless.....

IT'S A DRILL, folks !!!

 

[BullfrogKen]

Relax,

It's statements like this:

Let's do the math real quick: Taking the 1911 string, subtract .25 from .96 = .71. Add .50 (his time to figure out something is wrong and another .50 for him to do something about it. My typical "split" time (time between shots) at that distance is .20 or less for a total time of .91. So we discover he's been hit TWICE (going 1,1,2,1,1) before his full second has elapsed.

that prompted me to just remind you that square range work is only a small piece of the study. And while it is vital to know what you can do on a square drill, and more importantly how much time it takes you to do it, that's where it ends.


The thoughts of yours that I highlighted take the drill too far. There's no direct correlation from the square range to the real world of human dynamics.


<Edit> But it's still a GOOD drill.

 

[David E]

The badguy may or may not react at all. No one knows what'll happen until it does.

However, typical reaction times to unexpected stimuli run .75, usually longer. Or, he may startle himself into firing an earlier shot. Or he may do nothing. Bill Jordan talks about reaction times and how they come into play in real life shootings in "No Second Place Winner," but maybe he was talking thru his hat....

 

[BullfrogKen]

No, he wasn't.


Just remember the drill only goes so far. We focus on what we can do, because it's all we can control.


After that, the cards fall where they may.

 

[David E]

No, he wasn't.

Good to hear.

I simply applied the principles Bill Jordan defined to the drill in question to see how it played out.

People constantly make the mistake thinking that drills are training. They are not. They are for defining, building and testing certain skills.

Anyone that bashes basic shooting drills because "they are not training!" clearly misses that salient point.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Anyone that bashes basic shooting drills because "they are not training!" clearly misses that salient point.

And what is the point of the drill?

 

[David E]

From Post #1:

My main intent (aside from seeing how fast I could do this) was to determine how much time target #3 had to shoot me.

From Post #9:

No, it's a specific drill that can be replicated by anyone else to run and see how they do. The skill emphasized the most in this drill is target acquisition, as the targets are spread pretty far apart. Is that a skill to address and improve upon for defensive purposes? Most thinking folks agree that it is.

Obviously, you totally missed the point of the drill: to build target acquisition skills along with comparing the time it takes to get to the third target.

From Post #13:

Those are good drills to know your speed, and how much time you need to do something.

From Post #15:

It's a DRILL that emphasizes awkward target acquisition.

Post #17:

it is vital to know what you can do on a square drill, and more importantly how much time it takes you to do it...

But it's still a GOOD drill.



I don't know what else I could add to the above.....

This thread has caused an unusually high degree of inexplicable confusion...but maybe we can work thru it.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Well, I think it opens the floor for a good discussion, and it's a good set of drills. It is but one other piece of the puzzle.


Drills like these let us know how much time we need to perform the skills, if we must. But mainly drills like these are all about us, and have nothing to do with how our threats respond, or the interaction between the victim and the aggressor.


I think it's good you put them out there. There are a lot more who'd rather criticize than perform for a crowd.

 

[basicblur]

Well I haven't followed this thread too closely (sorry), but was watching the second season? of Personal Defense TV DVD (can't get it on my cable system)-think it was Thunder Ranch where Gresham was being taught to double tap each target. They had the timer running and compared total times for single shots on each target vs. double tappin' 'em all. Based on the assumption that one shot probably won't stop an attacker, they recommend the (very little) extra time it takes for double taps on each target.

I'm going to have to do a little searching to see what all the 'Net experts recommend AFA rounds per target-ought to be some interesting reading!?

 

[smince]

Um, yeah, maybe I already have....

Maybe, maybe not.

In a properly set-up course, not everyone knows what the other is going to do. Usually the instructor tells one or two what he wants done and they run it. The 3 BG's may only know they are suppossed to do X and you only know you are going to do Y. There are many variables that can be thrown into a situation like this (kinda like real life) that you can't get from square range drills. It's a lot different than a few buddies shooting at each other with AirSoft.

When I took Gabe Suarez's 0-5FT Gunfighting course, we ran multiple drills using 2-3 BG's at very close range and it becomes a tangle when the go signal is given. I won some and lost some but I learned something of value from each run.