TaurusPT945
Member
If I'm faced with clear and present danger with an armed criminal, where is the appropriate part of the body to shoot and how many shots do I have to fire to prove that everything is just self defense?
Self Defense
- Thread starter TaurusPT945
- Start date
- Status
dasmi
Member
Welcome to THR.
You fire at the center of mass, the chest, because that is the biggest, easiest target, and contains vital organs, like the pump room. You fire until the threat is no longer a threat. If that means one round, or ten, you fire until the threat is no longer a threat.
You fire at the center of mass, the chest, because that is the biggest, easiest target, and contains vital organs, like the pump room. You fire until the threat is no longer a threat. If that means one round, or ten, you fire until the threat is no longer a threat.
GregGry
Member
Umm, what the...
Well you shoot to stop, and you shoot towards the biggest part of the body you can hit, meaning the middle of the chest.
Well you shoot to stop, and you shoot towards the biggest part of the body you can hit, meaning the middle of the chest.
Mongo the Mutterer
Member
1. Welcome to the High Road
2. Shoot until the treat is gone. You will see a lot of reference to COM on this site. If you are unfamiliar, that is Center of Mass. The torso. I've been told the lower the better, but that is up to debate.
3. Then call paramedics for the perp, and then call the police.
4. Then call your lawyer, you are going to need one, no matter what the justification for the shoot.
2. Shoot until the treat is gone. You will see a lot of reference to COM on this site. If you are unfamiliar, that is Center of Mass. The torso. I've been told the lower the better, but that is up to debate.
3. Then call paramedics for the perp, and then call the police.
4. Then call your lawyer, you are going to need one, no matter what the justification for the shoot.
I might add that you need to quit firing when the perp no longer poses an immediate threat to you. This means if you fire one shot (or ten) and he turns his back to run, you must quit firing. If merely brandishing your weapon causes him to think better of attacking a well-armed individual and he turns to run, you must not fire at all. Shooting him in the back is a no no. Additionally, you must exhaust other options short of using force if possible. In most jurisdictions this means retreating before defending yourself if the assailant is not danger close to you. These are the rules of the game as I understand them. Anyone with corrections to these statements please post them.
If you do have to defend yourself then of course do call 911 to get the police and paramedics and call your lawyer.
If you do have to defend yourself then of course do call 911 to get the police and paramedics and call your lawyer.
Tomcat1066
Member
Like others have said, fire until the threat is eliminated at the torso. If you do that, you have a much better chance to survive the situation.
+1 on the attorney. You'll need it, even though it was self defense. Prosecution and civil action are ALL possibilities even though you were justified. Having an attorney present will help make sure you don't say something that could make your life difficult.
Tom
+1 on the attorney. You'll need it, even though it was self defense. Prosecution and civil action are ALL possibilities even though you were justified. Having an attorney present will help make sure you don't say something that could make your life difficult.
Tom
Pietro Beretta
Member
It also depends on the state/ Jurisdiction you live in.
If your in texas shoot if hes on your property, if you feel the need.
If you live in california the perp better have a gun in his hand pointing it at you, ready to fire before you decide to shoot
. Then when you do shoot him get ready to be sued.:banghead: 
If your in texas shoot if hes on your property, if you feel the need.
If you live in california the perp better have a gun in his hand pointing it at you, ready to fire before you decide to shoot
. Then when you do shoot him get ready to be sued.:banghead: Shoot for the center of the biggest part of the BG's body you can see. Usually that means the chest, but not always.
Shoot only when you are in immediate and otherwise unavoidable fear of death or grave bodily harm, to yourself or to another innocent person. Do not shoot simply to protect property, to punish a BG who is running away, or to frighten someone.
Do not draw your gun simply to brandish it or threaten the BG. You don't have to shoot every time you draw the gun, but if you do draw, you had better be willing to shoot, and prepared to shoot if necessary. If you don't think the situation is serious enough to justify shooting, leave your gun in the holster.
If you ever draw your gun in public, whether you shoot or not, be the one to call the cops. If the situation was serious enough to draw your gun, it is serious enough to report -- and being the one to call might save you from some serious legal grief if someone else reports that you were waving your gun around or threatening some poor disadvantaged youths.
When you do shoot, keep shooting until the BG is down, has surrendered, or has run away. Do not shoot just one round and wait to see what happens; keep firing until the BG is no longer a threat. Your lawyer and expert witnesses will be able to explain to the court why you kept firing. Explaining why you kept firing would be a lot easier for you than it would be for the police to explain to your widow why you didn't keep firing.
As soon as you can, get yourself into a shooting class with someone knowledgeable about your own state laws. The laws are different from one state to another and what is legal in Texas ain't necessarily legal in California.
Meanwhile, pick up a copy of Massad Ayoob's In the Gravest Extreme. Although somewhat dated now, it gives a pretty good overview of the legal picture. The time to think about this stuff is before you get into an altercation. You simply won't have time to think about it when something happens, and what you don't know could cause you to hesitate when every second counts.
pax
Shoot only when you are in immediate and otherwise unavoidable fear of death or grave bodily harm, to yourself or to another innocent person. Do not shoot simply to protect property, to punish a BG who is running away, or to frighten someone.
Do not draw your gun simply to brandish it or threaten the BG. You don't have to shoot every time you draw the gun, but if you do draw, you had better be willing to shoot, and prepared to shoot if necessary. If you don't think the situation is serious enough to justify shooting, leave your gun in the holster.
If you ever draw your gun in public, whether you shoot or not, be the one to call the cops. If the situation was serious enough to draw your gun, it is serious enough to report -- and being the one to call might save you from some serious legal grief if someone else reports that you were waving your gun around or threatening some poor disadvantaged youths.
When you do shoot, keep shooting until the BG is down, has surrendered, or has run away. Do not shoot just one round and wait to see what happens; keep firing until the BG is no longer a threat. Your lawyer and expert witnesses will be able to explain to the court why you kept firing. Explaining why you kept firing would be a lot easier for you than it would be for the police to explain to your widow why you didn't keep firing.
As soon as you can, get yourself into a shooting class with someone knowledgeable about your own state laws. The laws are different from one state to another and what is legal in Texas ain't necessarily legal in California.
Meanwhile, pick up a copy of Massad Ayoob's In the Gravest Extreme. Although somewhat dated now, it gives a pretty good overview of the legal picture. The time to think about this stuff is before you get into an altercation. You simply won't have time to think about it when something happens, and what you don't know could cause you to hesitate when every second counts.
pax
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Welcome!
Well - most has been said already! I will reiterate however - there is no ''appropriate'' area to shoot at per se - but because COM presents the largest hit opportunity then that will be what (instinctively) most folks will aim for. That said the COM shot/shots will frequently not be guaranteed stoppers - unless CNS affected, which could mean spinal contact. The CNS shutdown would have to be a head shot but that is far from a likely probability in extremis.
Remember this - if this sort of thing goes down we are faced with almost guaranteed loss of fine motor skills - adrenaline will be overdosing the system - and there will be an urgency which will far exceed probably any training ever experienced.
You need to be able to state that ''I was in FEAR for my life'' - and assuming things are indeed that bad - you shoot until the threat is stopped. Whether this puts the guy on the ground or not is academic, if in fact he still poses a threat by trying to shoot back. Thus a round count will also be academic - it is what is required to achieve a result.
In a court of law your justification for the ''x'' rounds fired will again be based on your fear and feeling of need to prevent your personal harm - one shot or 15 - the threat needed stopped.
Well - most has been said already! I will reiterate however - there is no ''appropriate'' area to shoot at per se - but because COM presents the largest hit opportunity then that will be what (instinctively) most folks will aim for. That said the COM shot/shots will frequently not be guaranteed stoppers - unless CNS affected, which could mean spinal contact. The CNS shutdown would have to be a head shot but that is far from a likely probability in extremis.
Remember this - if this sort of thing goes down we are faced with almost guaranteed loss of fine motor skills - adrenaline will be overdosing the system - and there will be an urgency which will far exceed probably any training ever experienced.
You need to be able to state that ''I was in FEAR for my life'' - and assuming things are indeed that bad - you shoot until the threat is stopped. Whether this puts the guy on the ground or not is academic, if in fact he still poses a threat by trying to shoot back. Thus a round count will also be academic - it is what is required to achieve a result.
In a court of law your justification for the ''x'' rounds fired will again be based on your fear and feeling of need to prevent your personal harm - one shot or 15 - the threat needed stopped.
Great posts and good thinking. I am glad to see something besides the usual bullsh*t and bluster about a "right" to kill anyone who looks at you wrong. I am very afraid that some of the newbies may take that crap seriously and end up facing 20 to life because they fired when there was no need.
Like it or not, and we should like it for our own protection, the law considers the taking of a human life to be a serious matter, not some kind of internet joke. Even if YOU think you were justified in shooting, YOU don't get to decide that; a prosecutor or a jury will make that decision, with YOUR future in the balance.
I recommend that any individual who carries a gun have an attorney on retainer, and memorize his phone number because you might not have your wallet or access to a phone book when you are allowed to use the phone. And have a source of bail money - a bondsman wants 10% up front and that is NOT refundable. On a bond of, say, $100,000, even 10% is a chunk of change.
Jim
Like it or not, and we should like it for our own protection, the law considers the taking of a human life to be a serious matter, not some kind of internet joke. Even if YOU think you were justified in shooting, YOU don't get to decide that; a prosecutor or a jury will make that decision, with YOUR future in the balance.
I recommend that any individual who carries a gun have an attorney on retainer, and memorize his phone number because you might not have your wallet or access to a phone book when you are allowed to use the phone. And have a source of bail money - a bondsman wants 10% up front and that is NOT refundable. On a bond of, say, $100,000, even 10% is a chunk of change.
Jim
ReadyontheRight
Member
Ditto. A few tidbits pointed out in a class I took:
-A 50 cent "Beware of Dog" sign on your door (whether you have a dog or not) could prevent an incident in the first place.
-If you DO have to shoot someone, it will likely cost you $$ for a lawyer.
-If you DO have to shoot someone, the police will most likely haul you in and question you intensively. They have no idea if you are a good guy or bad, and they catch most criminals though their words, not their actions.
Take a class and practice shooting.
A lot of good information in this thread. Schmitty made one comment that I would like to clarify. He is absolutely correct on the duty to retreat when you can. BUT, there is a notable exception to that. If the threat is in the form of a home invasion, you have no duty to retreat from the BG in that situation. IF there is a clear and present danger and you are in your own home, you are not required to retreat, firing on the perp is the proper thing to do in that set of circumstances.
1911 guy
Member
Center of mass you can see.
COM is the way to go, no fancy shoot-the-gun-from-his-hand stuff. Also, keep firing until the threat is gone, ie perp is dead or retreating. A jury is more likely to buy fear for your life if several rounds are fired, a prosecutor will spin a fatal double tap with no follow up as you being a murderous hit man.
COM is the way to go, no fancy shoot-the-gun-from-his-hand stuff. Also, keep firing until the threat is gone, ie perp is dead or retreating. A jury is more likely to buy fear for your life if several rounds are fired, a prosecutor will spin a fatal double tap with no follow up as you being a murderous hit man.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
Shoot only as a last resort~!
, in defense of YOUR LIFE or the LIFE of a loved one. Fire at center mass, with a double (or triple) tap; or
until the threat ceases.
, in defense of YOUR LIFE or the LIFE of a loved one. Fire at center mass, with a double (or triple) tap; or until the threat ceases.
MCgunner
Member
TaurusPT945 said:
This is stressed in Texas' CCW classes. Not sure why it got by you if you have a CCW.
I'll say, yeah, center mass unless I only have my little .22. Then I'm taking one center mass and the rest I'm shooting at eye sockets. Hopefully, I won't have to actually do that for real, just at the range.
But, mouse calibers require special tactics. Normally, the .22 is last ditch, but it's sometimes all I have. I hope Murphy stays home on those days.
+1 to purchasing a copy of Ayoob's 'In The Gravest Extreme'. I don't recall what I paid for my copy 20 or so years ago, but it's miniscule compared to the money I saved in civil court as a result of following Ayoob's advice.
Winning a violent confrontation is only half the battle. The other half is fought against bottom feeding lawyers-no offense meant to the 'good guy' lawyers out there.
Biker
Winning a violent confrontation is only half the battle. The other half is fought against bottom feeding lawyers-no offense meant to the 'good guy' lawyers out there.
Biker
MCgunner
Member
There is no "duty to retreat" in Texas. But, it's common sense if you can get away from a confrontation, to do so. I can't afford Lawyers.
I've found http://www.packing.org/ very helpful. They will have links to your state and the actual laws for that state.
This thread has some very good advice. I'll also stress that you should talk to a lawyer. Do it now, before you need one. The laws vary wildly depending on where you are and only a lawyer will have it all down.
THR is the best I've seen to date, but NO information from the internet should be considered legal advice. As this is most clearly a matter of "life and death" please take the time to get both proper training and legal advice.
Saftey first,
JRLaws
This thread has some very good advice. I'll also stress that you should talk to a lawyer. Do it now, before you need one. The laws vary wildly depending on where you are and only a lawyer will have it all down.
THR is the best I've seen to date, but NO information from the internet should be considered legal advice. As this is most clearly a matter of "life and death" please take the time to get both proper training and legal advice.
Saftey first,
JRLaws
Last edited:
38SnubFan
Member
Here's what I practice:
1. Fire only enough shots to stop the threat. If the first shot puts him down, then you don't need to fire a second. If the first shot doesn't, then you need to fire again. Keep firing, quickly and repeatedly, until the threat stops, runs away, or hits the ground.
2. Fire for center of mass FIRST. My personal opinion is if he doesn't go down after the 2nd or 3rd shot on him, then you go for a CNS (head) shot.
Just my opinion.
-38SnubFan
1. Fire only enough shots to stop the threat. If the first shot puts him down, then you don't need to fire a second. If the first shot doesn't, then you need to fire again. Keep firing, quickly and repeatedly, until the threat stops, runs away, or hits the ground.
2. Fire for center of mass FIRST. My personal opinion is if he doesn't go down after the 2nd or 3rd shot on him, then you go for a CNS (head) shot.
Just my opinion.
-38SnubFan
horge
Member
P95Carry said:
Hey Chris, that reminds me of the self-defense shooter's vocalization drill
"Nooo!! Stay away!!! I'm in fear of my life!!!"
Bang! Bang! Bang!
"You're frightening me to death!!! I said I'm in fear of my life!!!"
Bang! Bang! Bang!
"I'm in fear of my liiiiiife!!! Everybody in the vicinity hear me?"
Bang! Bang! ...eject... ...reload...
"Helllp!!!"
Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!
Hey, with nearly all the bases already covered so nicely...
-horge
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
You got it Horge - yep - you got it!
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
To Eliminate A Threat
Triple TAP~!
Two shots too center mass, and one to the booger factory~!
Triple TAP~!
Two shots too center mass, and one to the booger factory~!
Taurus 66
Member
P95Carry said:
To back up this reply, you must always keep in mind you "shot to stop" the threat. Never EVER say you "shot to kill" in front of the DA and jury (if it ever came to this). To have the word "kill" in your answers is a hint of malice.
SixForSure
Member
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2005
- Messages
- 113
Just remember though, if asked why you fired 6 times, (or 8, or.........)answering with "He died before I could reload" is a major faux pas.horge said:Hey Chris, that reminds me of the self-defense shooter's vocalization drill
"Nooo!! Stay away!!! I'm in fear of my life!!!"
Bang! Bang! Bang!
"You're frightening me to death!!! I said I'm in fear of my life!!!"
Bang! Bang! Bang!
"I'm in fear of my liiiiiife!!! Everybody in the vicinity hear me?"
Bang! Bang! ...eject... ...reload...
"Helllp!!!"
Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!
Hey, with nearly all the bases already covered so nicely...
-horge
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
