George P
member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2018
- Messages
- 7,772
You will find, as I did, that the 365 is the same size as the CM-9 (I have both); longer trigger pull - but very smooth - I added a rubber sleeve for a better grip
Sig p365 "3rd Gen" Quality?
- Thread starter WoodchuckAssassin
- Start date
-
- Tags
- p365
- Status
Trey Veston
Member
How do you know? Because yours has been fine? What are the actual numbers of P365s with issues compared to other types of handguns?
Every gun forum I'm on has multiple threads on bad P365s. Doesn't matter how new or old.
The problem is that gun manufacturers do not disclose their defect rates. There is no Consumer Reports for guns. So all that prospective buyers have to rely on is either the internet, or the local gun shop.
And we all know how much great advice is given at the gun shop. But I did ask my LGS once if they had any P365s to I could see one in person. He said they sell them as soon as they get in, and he's had to send a couple back to the factory due to arriving with a dead trigger. He said that happens occasionally with some firearms, most notably Marlin lever-actions, in which the gun arrives with defects out of the box.
He said it's happened enough with the P365 and had enough customers report issues that he won't personally rely on one.
The bottom line is that P365s commonly having issues is not an internet myth. It is real and it is causing hundreds of gun owners headaches and frustration. Thankfully it has not caused someone to lose their life... Yet.
Carry whatever you want. Hell, carry a damn squirt gun with hot sauce in it for all I care, just don't insult those that are skeptical of the reliability of these pistols by telling us it is nothing more than an internet myth and tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theories.
Sorry to hear of your troubles. Nothing worse than getting a new gun that won't function properly.
If I listened to the Internet forums, I wouldn't own a single gun.
You name it it has been misaligned, bashed, etc. etc.
****I have no dog in the 365 fight. Hell I dont even own a Sig..
Tommygunn
Member
Part of the problem, IMHO, is that when a few people get the few lemon guns, they all complain (not really blaming them, just noting a phenomenon) about them on the 'net, while the majority get good ones and, hey, everthing's dandy, no complaints ---- and thus no one hears from them.
I have had two guns of the too many I own that had to be retrofitted or replaced, both from reputable makers. I would ---and have --- purchased subsequent firearms from both these companies.
I have had two guns of the too many I own that had to be retrofitted or replaced, both from reputable makers. I would ---and have --- purchased subsequent firearms from both these companies.
Trey Veston
Member
If I listened to the Internet forums, I wouldn't own a single gun.
You name it it has been misaligned, bashed, etc. etc.
****I have no dog in the 365 fight. Hell I dont even own a Sig..
That's the whole point... How common are there threads about problems with a Ruger SR9? Or a Glock G19? Or a Walther P99? Yes, there have been threads on issues with all pistols. But how many guns on a generic gun forum have multiple threads about problems with them every week?
Are you saying that there are multiple threads every week on problems with The P320? Or the P220? Or the Ruger Security 9?
Due to the inexplicable lack of statistics on firearms failures and warranty returns, all gun owners have is the internet.
If I am interested in a particular model, and I notice that there are a bunch of threads about it having issues on every forum I visit. That's a clue.
Since there are no actual verifiable numbers, then no one can say with absolute certainty that a certain gun is more problematic than another. But after the hundredth thread or so in a month on owners with issues, that might be a clue if one is actually honest with themselves.
Go to their respective forums and you will find tons..
Why not buy and try yourself ? instead of anecdotal evidence by some stranger that you have no clue about.
Ive never relied on online reviews and prefer 1st hand accounts.
Trey Veston
Member
OK... I went to the General Glocking section of Glocktalk, the largest Glock forum on the internet and out of 25 threads on the first page, 4 were about issues or problems. That's including ALL models of Glocks going back 30 years.
I then went to the largest Sig Sauer forum I could find on the internet. They had a poll on the first page of the P365 forum asking owners how many have had issues.
https://sigtalk.com/p365/326528-p365-owners-poll.html
They received 231 responses. Of those 231 owners, 48 had problems. That's a 21% failure rate.
So, if I take your advice and buy a gun that has known problems, I have a 1 in 5 chance of getting a gun that will either fail me when I count on it to defend my life, or have to send it back for repairs.
Maybe you are fine with rolling the dice with your life and the lives of your loved ones, but I am not.
Jeb Stuart
member
Lol, I would not trust a internet poll anymore than I would trust CNN. Way too many variables. How many were just plain dirty, how many with crap ammo, how many limp wristed the gun, how many false post and on and on and on. Man before I went to the range with my club, I had read the internet post and thought for sure we were going to have about 20% failure rate at least. Out of the 1,000 rounds of mixed ammo we had only 4 failure which we blamed on shooter error. Lol, that is what a .4% failure rate? Just read about a study done with the Beretta Nano back years ago when the internet was reporting failures with extraction issues. They ended up having a .6% failure rate and only a few with extractor issues. In fact they never redesigned the extractor, which I thought they did. They only replaced a rare few.
My gosh, if you think the Sig is a bad gun full of every kind of plague known to man, simply go away, do not buy one. For others buy a Sig. If it fits, you will have a might nice gun.
Lol, I would bet the happiest Sig 365 owner is the guy that does not log onto a internet forum or listen to internet crapola.
Last edited:
Not really because the online gun community is a small fraction of the actual gun community.
This isn't my first Rodeo.. I own dozens and dozens of handguns that are "fit for service".
I buy and try a ton of guns... The majority dont stay, and I dont loose much money. 99.9% are not really because of lack of reliably rather fastidious by nature..
Trey Veston
Member
My whole point is that there is little to no actual verifiable data of just how reliable certain firearms are.
I think we agree on that point.
I just think that when choosing something as important as a concealed carry handgun, that one should take all factors into consideration and attempt to do as much research as possible. Not everyone can afford to buy multiple pistols and see what works.
My trepidation is that with the P365, it has failed many owners suddenly and without warning. It's not like common issues like FTE or FTF issues that are consisent and show up upon initial testing of the firearm. It's the failure of the trigger return spring or striker failure that is happening everywhere from the first magazine, to 2000 rounds later.
Again, someone choosing to purchase one and rely on it is not my concern. But attacking others for having concerns about a pistol's reliability based on numerous reports of failures reported everywhere from gun shop counters, to YouTube, to internet forums just rubs me the wrong way.
And I certainly don't want this pistol to fail! It fits my hand wonderfully (with the optional $40 12-round magazine) and has impressive capacity and some other great features. Glock can't (or won't) compete with it numbers wise in terms of size and capacity.
I think we agree on that point.
I just think that when choosing something as important as a concealed carry handgun, that one should take all factors into consideration and attempt to do as much research as possible. Not everyone can afford to buy multiple pistols and see what works.
My trepidation is that with the P365, it has failed many owners suddenly and without warning. It's not like common issues like FTE or FTF issues that are consisent and show up upon initial testing of the firearm. It's the failure of the trigger return spring or striker failure that is happening everywhere from the first magazine, to 2000 rounds later.
Again, someone choosing to purchase one and rely on it is not my concern. But attacking others for having concerns about a pistol's reliability based on numerous reports of failures reported everywhere from gun shop counters, to YouTube, to internet forums just rubs me the wrong way.
And I certainly don't want this pistol to fail! It fits my hand wonderfully (with the optional $40 12-round magazine) and has impressive capacity and some other great features. Glock can't (or won't) compete with it numbers wise in terms of size and capacity.
<*(((><
Member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2013
- Messages
- 2,747
@Trey Veston this is why I have been reluctant to purchase one yet. I'm sure I'll own one eventually. I can handle a few FTE and chambering issues in the beginning, those issues have a certain expectation with a new firearm. But the other design issues that crop up at random times is disconcerting for a CCW piece.
And I understand that there are a lot of Sig 365's out there, but I didn't see any of these types of threads or the amounts on the S&W Shield when it came out.
I too hope that it can get past the initial bumps and turn into the carry piece much like the Shield was/is. It is a very innovative and forward thinking design with the capacity and size, but with miniaturization of any product it has it's pitfalls that have to be avoided.
And I'm glad that there are those that purchased the Sig 365 it needs to be tested and vetted. I'm just a late adopter to things such as this; and you early adopters get to enjoy a cutting edge firearm sooner.
TomJ
Contributing Member
Internet forums are a tool that should be used with some common sense. You have to consider whether the person speaking badly of a gun has actually owned it, were they specific in describing the issues they had, whether they were a fan of another manufacturer and had a bone to pick with the gun they're criticizing, etc. There are a number of other resources available such as a reputable LGS, a trusted gun smith, the track record of the manufacturer as far a quality, customer service, honesty, etc. I purchased my P365 knowing there could be issues based on mixed information, so I went in with my eyes open. It hasn't worked out for me, and it's going to take a lot for me to trust it when it comes back from repair. I wish it turned out differently and I'm rooting for Sig to get it right for the benefit of others, regardless of whether I decide to keep it.
Old Dog
Member
Sorry, can't let you interpret that scientific poll like that, Trey …
48 had problems, but 17 of those 48 said they were minor issues that didn't require sending the pistols back to SIG; 31 folks said they sent their guns to SIG (13.42%), but NOT because their guns "failed." Most of the issues were with dead nightsights, primer drag and a couple broker strikers. Also note that the poll started last fall and basically was asking those who purchased pistols during the bad production run (pistols born after August 2018 haven't had the issues that a couple of the early production runs did).
And, if you read through the comments on that forum and the other SIG forum (the "real" forum with the experienced guys and lots of folks from the industry), you'd note that the pistol has garnered pretty much universal praise and approval.
TomJ
Contributing Member
Old Dog,
Can I ask where you got the August, 2018 information from? I’m not questioning you. Mine was manufactured in June, 2018. If changes were made in August I’d like to request that Sig swap mine out for one that was manufactured after they corrected their issues.
Tom
George P
member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2018
- Messages
- 7,772
Took mine to the range again today; fed it a steady of cheap Remington Bucket of Bullets 115; zero issues. before I bought one I rented one at this same range. They have one of the first ones that came out early; the ones with "the problems". The only time they clean any of their rentals is when they stop working. That gun is still there and is rented all the time; at least once per day - and they are open 363 days per year. Still going strong.
vba
Member
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2008
- Messages
- 345
Luke;
I agree with everything you wrote except for:
"It is a very innovative and forward thinking design with the capacity and size..."
It is neither forward thinking or innovative as the Keltec P11 came out decades ago. It has the same capacity and is actually smaller.
http://www.handgunhero.com/compare/sig-sauer-p365-vs-kel-tec-p-11
I agree with everything you wrote except for:
"It is a very innovative and forward thinking design with the capacity and size..."
It is neither forward thinking or innovative as the Keltec P11 came out decades ago. It has the same capacity and is actually smaller.
http://www.handgunhero.com/compare/sig-sauer-p365-vs-kel-tec-p-11
TomJ
Contributing Member
I just had a lengthy conversation with one of the customer service supervisors at Sig as well as with one of our LGS'. My LGS told me they had seen them coming in regularly for repair when they first came out, and whatever issues they had seemed to have been worked out as they don't have many coming back now. The ones that were sent in for repair are not coming back for repair a second time, so whatever Sig is doing to repair them seems to be resolving the issue, at least with the customers from this LGS. In regards to my conversation with the supervisor at Sig, I'll tip my hat to him. We had spoken before and exchanged e-mails, and he genuinely wants to get this right. He took his time in answering my questions, explained in detail what they'll do when they receive the gun and wanted to make sure I was comfortable with the steps they'd take. I obviously wish the gun functioned as it should, but at least feel a little better that I'm dealing with someone who cares about resolving this.
Last edited:
Old Dog
Member
Shoot, I meant June 2018 -- the company released the "3rd generation" models mid-June (with the XRay3 night-sights) -- all those pistols are supposed to be GTG, and the internet chatter over the past few months seems to bear this out.
Fine Figure of a Man
Member
300 rounds through mine and no issues so far, should get a few hundred more through it this weekend. I have not shot paper from a bench yet but I do pretty well on my 30 to 100 yard steel plates with it.
I had no opinion at all on the 365 when I bought it. I like it so far but 300 isn't very many rounds.
I had no opinion at all on the 365 when I bought it. I like it so far but 300 isn't very many rounds.
TomJ
Contributing Member
This has been eating at me, mainly because it's such a perfect carry gun for me and I shoot it so well. I talked to a couple other LGS' I know and another gun smith. All said the same thing I've been hearing in regards to the older ones having problems but the new ones being fine, making me comfortable with them despite what happened to mine. I have 2 safe queens I decided to sell yesterday, so I'm taking the money from one of those and buying a second P365, with a March, 2019 manufacture date. I'll keep the old one as a back up, once I confirm it's been repaired properly.
George P
member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2018
- Messages
- 7,772
Here's the thing about "internet chatter". If a person gets what they consider a lemon they will tell the tale of woe on several venues. This makes it seem like the problem is much bigger than it really is.
It's a focus effect. Among gun owners those who own a high end 1911 is pretty small. Come to a forum like this and the it goes up by at least an order of magnitude. Go to the 1911 forum and it goes up at least two orders of magnitude. Hell, go to the 1911 forum and if you DON'T own a high end 1911 you'll feel like a failure.
Also on the internet you have your camps. If one camp hears something detrimental to the other camp they are sure to spread the news. I'm sure the Glock fan boys were elated to hear the "problems" with the Sig P365. I have no doubt that some of them complained about it without ever handling one. Sound familiar?
Then you have the guy at the LGS. He might have sold 100 of them and maybe two came back, likely half that number was use error, and the other was because they read something on the internet. So suddenly he's telling everyone about the two that came back and pushing them to buy something that has a higher profit margin.
It's a focus effect. Among gun owners those who own a high end 1911 is pretty small. Come to a forum like this and the it goes up by at least an order of magnitude. Go to the 1911 forum and it goes up at least two orders of magnitude. Hell, go to the 1911 forum and if you DON'T own a high end 1911 you'll feel like a failure.
Also on the internet you have your camps. If one camp hears something detrimental to the other camp they are sure to spread the news. I'm sure the Glock fan boys were elated to hear the "problems" with the Sig P365. I have no doubt that some of them complained about it without ever handling one. Sound familiar?
Then you have the guy at the LGS. He might have sold 100 of them and maybe two came back, likely half that number was use error, and the other was because they read something on the internet. So suddenly he's telling everyone about the two that came back and pushing them to buy something that has a higher profit margin.
larryh1108
Member
I do listen, to a small degree, the hyperbole on a new release. I will not buy a new release no matter who makes it simply because I know there will be "growing pains" when they release them en mass. It's just how it works with anything.... cars, electronics, guns, whatever. Once a new release has been around for some serious testing from the general public, I will consider it if it interests me. Usually about a year and a half or two. I did wait until 2019 for a Dec 2018 production to buy my P365 and I am happy with it. I also waited for Remington to totally redesign their R51 after their initial failure. I figured that with everything they own on the line, they would wait until they got it right, with some serious field testing, before they decided to release it again. I got a Gen 2 R51. I am very happy with it. Others may not agree. It works for me so that's what matters to me.
Some people will never buy one (Brand X) because the initial release was flawed. Maybe they got a bad one or maybe they have no trust in the "improvement" but that's how they operate. Nothing wrong with that. Everybody has their own criteria for what works for them. That's how life works.
I do have an issue with people who try to force their opinion down the throats of others who have a different set of criteria. What works for them, with their own, personal standards, does not make it right for everybody. To each, his own has a lot of meaning. Too many people don't see that for what it truly means.
Some people will never buy one (Brand X) because the initial release was flawed. Maybe they got a bad one or maybe they have no trust in the "improvement" but that's how they operate. Nothing wrong with that. Everybody has their own criteria for what works for them. That's how life works.
I do have an issue with people who try to force their opinion down the throats of others who have a different set of criteria. What works for them, with their own, personal standards, does not make it right for everybody. To each, his own has a lot of meaning. Too many people don't see that for what it truly means.
TomJ
Contributing Member
Two of the ways we make buying decisions are emotionally and rationally. When it comes to guns I'll use at the range only, I'm ok making emotional decisions based on whether it's fun to shoot, the looks of the gun, etc. as long as the gun is safe to shoot. It's like the 12 year old me is making that decision and if the gun has issues from time to time there's no harm done, as I'm not relying on it for self defense. I have a lot of fun shooting those guns with my sons and friends, and there's value in that. With guns I use for self defense I try to take the emotion out of the decision and make rational decisions. That doesn't mean I won't get frustrated if a gun malfunctions or the manufacturer isn't responding as they should, only that letting the 12 year old me make a decision on what gun I want to rely on to protect myself and loved ones is a really bad idea. It appears as if many people are making emotional decisions for SD guns, based on brand loyalty, justification that their gun of choice is best and dislike for a particular brand. If someone disagrees they lash out. We're fortunate to be in a time when we have an embarrassment of riches in regards to choices for SD guns. If you found the gun that works for you that's fantastic, and you should be happy for others that found the same, even if their choice is different than yours.
Last edited:
Madcap_Magician
Member
Trey Veston said:
No one is insulting you. All the arguments you are making against the premise that "P365s are generally reliable now" are also applicable to your hypothesis that "P365s commonly have issues." You say that all the gun boards have threads about people with varied and serious issues with a P365. That's true.
But:
A) How many of those people are posting about the same gun on multiple forums?
B) How many of those guns are early production vs. current production?
C) How many P365s are currently in circulation?
D) Are the design and manufacturing changes made since the gun went into production likely to have addressed the most common and/or most serious issues reported?
Those are just a few of the questions you would need to know in order to say definitively that P365s do or do not commonly have problems.
Even if they do, you would expect that from a new design, especially one that represents a design philosophy change in a subcompact size. Why don't you see Glock failure threads? You do. You'd probably see more if all Glocks weren't basically the same gun that's been manufactured since 1982. When the P365 has had the best part of 40 years of production and design fine-tuning, I would expect to see very few people complaining about failures. Similarly, I think it's pretty common knowledge that it's harder to make a smaller gun equally reliable to a larger gun. So if Ruger doesn't get many reliability complaints with the Security 9... well, it's a full-size gun with fundamentally no innovation in a type (full-size, striker-fired, polymer-framed semiautomatic service pistol) that is so common that most companies can make them reliable. Like AR-15s.
Why do I like P365s? Well, I don't know if I like them all. If I had one with problems, I wouldn't like it. But mine hasn't had problems so far, so I reckon I like it just fine.
- Status
