Guns and more
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This is very simple. Everyone in Oklahoma must go to their local police station and have their Glock .40 test fired. If that fails to get a match we will expand it to surrounding states.
State authorities asking gun owners to allow guns to be test fired.
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ArcherandShooter
Member
Granting evil a veto over the good
3Pairs12, you have just illustrated precisely why such cases as this must NOT be used to change or even influence public policy or law. There is a reason we have a written Constitution and it is that a written document stands above the messy and often excruciating events of human life, keeping the principles upon which a free and just society is founded safe from manipulation by evil.
In saying what you did, you have announced to the world the exact lever needed to move you in whatever way someone wants. Whatever you have that they want: money, your wife, your vote, the exercise of whatever authority you possess in a certain way - all they have to do is capture and threaten a child and you will give them what they want.
If it were my child, that's probably what I'd want you to do, but that doesn't make it right, because to live that way is to GRANT EVIL A VETO OVER THE GOOD. There is good in our system of liberties and self-government, even as strained as it is in the current political environment. No other means of ordering society has EVER been invented that comes close to it as a way of preserving the worth and dignity and freedom of its citizens.
As painful as it is in the moment, that IS worth more than the life of any single person, even a little child; it is why we honor soldiers who risk and sometimes give their lives to defend it.
And in this case, giving in to the demand for the surrender of rights for which people bled and died would solve nothing for those children - it will not bring them back.
3Pairs12, you have just illustrated precisely why such cases as this must NOT be used to change or even influence public policy or law. There is a reason we have a written Constitution and it is that a written document stands above the messy and often excruciating events of human life, keeping the principles upon which a free and just society is founded safe from manipulation by evil.
In saying what you did, you have announced to the world the exact lever needed to move you in whatever way someone wants. Whatever you have that they want: money, your wife, your vote, the exercise of whatever authority you possess in a certain way - all they have to do is capture and threaten a child and you will give them what they want.
If it were my child, that's probably what I'd want you to do, but that doesn't make it right, because to live that way is to GRANT EVIL A VETO OVER THE GOOD. There is good in our system of liberties and self-government, even as strained as it is in the current political environment. No other means of ordering society has EVER been invented that comes close to it as a way of preserving the worth and dignity and freedom of its citizens.
As painful as it is in the moment, that IS worth more than the life of any single person, even a little child; it is why we honor soldiers who risk and sometimes give their lives to defend it.
And in this case, giving in to the demand for the surrender of rights for which people bled and died would solve nothing for those children - it will not bring them back.
SSN Vet
Member
I think they're at a total loss and are grasping at straws.
Maybe their trying to collect balistic data for comparison, so they can figure out more info. about the weapons used in the crime (i.e. barrel length, type of rifling, etc...)
Regardless of what they do, I hope they catch the monsters who murdered those little girls and give them a few thousand volts in a warm cozy chair.
Maybe their trying to collect balistic data for comparison, so they can figure out more info. about the weapons used in the crime (i.e. barrel length, type of rifling, etc...)
Regardless of what they do, I hope they catch the monsters who murdered those little girls and give them a few thousand volts in a warm cozy chair.
lucky_fool
Member
The thing is, by submitting to the test you haven't helped them find the killer. Eliminating your gun as the murder weapon does not in any way get them closer to finding the actual killer(s).
RoadkingLarry
Member
Oklahoma uses the needle but I think for this we need to bring back public hanging.
JohnBT
Member
TWEET!!!
Five yard penalty for using logic.
I mean really, does anyone believe the shooter is going to have his or her gun tested?
John
Five yard penalty for using logic.
I mean really, does anyone believe the shooter is going to have his or her gun tested?
John
They did use the word "please". Seems more like a request than a demand.
I tend to agree with a couple points made by others.
The science of ballistic matching is only exact when it is done on TV. In the real world it is like hair samples. A lot of people have hair that is very close to someone else's hair, and there is no way to truly tell them apart.
It is entirely true that anyone who refuses to voluntarily present his firearm for testing will be considered a possible suspect.
The fact is that most cases are solved almost immediately after the crime is committed. The investigation is mostly about dotting the I's and crossing the T's so there is a proper court case.
Virtually all other cases are solved when the criminal brags about it and gets ratted out, or an accomplice rats him out to save his own hide.
My guess is unless the criminal(s) in this case get ratted out somehow, it will never be solved.
David904
Member
If the police wanted to test fire a gun I had for the purpose of forensics, they can jolly well get a warrant. Otherwise, talk to my attorney.
I will not speak to the police in an official capacity without an attorney present... Ever. To do otherwise is ill advised.
I will not speak to the police in an official capacity without an attorney present... Ever. To do otherwise is ill advised.
Aran
member
When I was assaulted by a state trooper over open carry here in Pennsylvania, he asked me to please put my hands behind my back so he could cuff me.
Just because they're saying please doesn't mean a thing.
Cassandrasdaddy, I don't intend to repeat what's already been said. But I will add this: the letter, in and of itself, certainly breaks no law, but it puts the onus of proof of innocence on those who own a similar gun. Our system is based upon a PRESUMPTION of innocence. We also guard against unreasonable searches and seizures, so that we may be secure in our homes and persons. Even the request by law enforcement for something like this raises the spectre of demand for the same. It is coercive. It is in violation of the spirit of the Fourth Amendment, at the very least.
I am willing to bet that the overt intent here is what the letter says on its face. In that regard, it's just a shortsighted and silly attempt to make a break in a cold case. However, the troubling aspect is that those who sent out that letter did not apparently consider the Constitutional issues that it raises, or they didn't care.
A lot of men (and women) have died to protect our freedoms. I will not put anything, even the deaths of two children, over that and say that it counts so much more that those freedoms can be wheedled, or whittled, away.
The letter was a bad idea. It won't work. And it shows a blindness to the rights of citizens that is breathtaking in its idiocy.
Apart from that, it's just fine.
Springmom
I am willing to bet that the overt intent here is what the letter says on its face. In that regard, it's just a shortsighted and silly attempt to make a break in a cold case. However, the troubling aspect is that those who sent out that letter did not apparently consider the Constitutional issues that it raises, or they didn't care.
A lot of men (and women) have died to protect our freedoms. I will not put anything, even the deaths of two children, over that and say that it counts so much more that those freedoms can be wheedled, or whittled, away.
The letter was a bad idea. It won't work. And it shows a blindness to the rights of citizens that is breathtaking in its idiocy.
Apart from that, it's just fine.
Springmom
RoadkingLarry
Member
What remains to be seen is just how "voluntary" this is. How will the ones who didn't show up be treated by LE? That will tell us the rest of the story. Stay Tuned.
damien
Member
This seems so stupid. Even if the murderer was one of the registered owners who were contacted, would he just show up and hope for the best? Probably the gun would either get cut up into the smallest pieces possible or sunk in the deepest lake he could get to and then report back to the cops that it was taken out of his unlocked car months ago.
Bighouse Doc
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Impotent Keystone Kops
They can't crack this case. So in order to save face, they are grasping at straws.
Maybe the local DA is looking at the governor's mansion someday down the road.
Based on the autopsy reports, it would seem the other gun is a .22. They need to round up the thousands of farmer's .22's too!
I suspect that they would be better served looking in every lake in Eastern Oklahoma then chasing the local gun owners.
They can't crack this case. So in order to save face, they are grasping at straws.
Maybe the local DA is looking at the governor's mansion someday down the road.
Based on the autopsy reports, it would seem the other gun is a .22. They need to round up the thousands of farmer's .22's too!
I suspect that they would be better served looking in every lake in Eastern Oklahoma then chasing the local gun owners.
eflatminor
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And while we're at it
...please leave a DNA sample, your fingerprints, and allow us to implant this harmless little computer chip in your head. It will help us locate you should you ever get lost. Don't worry, we're from the government and we're here to help. All is well, all is well.
...please leave a DNA sample, your fingerprints, and allow us to implant this harmless little computer chip in your head. It will help us locate you should you ever get lost. Don't worry, we're from the government and we're here to help. All is well, all is well.
jerkface11
Member
They have NO evidence in this case. They won't catch the people responsible unless they tell on themselves.
packnrat
Member
on the way to the court house i would stop in and buy a NEW tube for the gun...after the test firing.. put the old one back in.
free and clear...next..
.
free and clear...next..
.
cassandrasdaddy
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"TWEET!!!
Five yard penalty for using logic.
I mean really, does anyone believe the shooter is going to have his or her gun tested?
John"
why that would be like that guy who gave his dna and got tagged for the old rape.... it could never happen except it did funny that. been a couple other cases i need to go dig em up
Five yard penalty for using logic.
I mean really, does anyone believe the shooter is going to have his or her gun tested?
John"
why that would be like that guy who gave his dna and got tagged for the old rape.... it could never happen except it did funny that. been a couple other cases i need to go dig em up
JohnBT
Member
Sure, I believe in miracles.
I'm just not sitting around waiting on one to happen.
JT
I'm just not sitting around waiting on one to happen.
JT
cassandrasdaddy
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hypothetically if you had 59 of the guns located would you take a hard look at the guy who lost his? and would that be a violation of law or his rights?
SCKimberFan
Member
That settles it. To H_E_double toothpicks with the 4th amendment.
cassandrasdaddy
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so spring mom to recap then no law was broken and no right violated but it might come to that in the future?
cassandrasdaddy
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think perhaps you are missing the point here. The moment this tactic goes from "voluntary" to "mandatory", as the language of the letter is certainly intended to imply, all our notions of probable cause and due process of law are out the window.
so since the request is still voluntary this is all premptive whining? just in case?
so since the request is still voluntary this is all premptive whining? just in case?
pbearperry
Member
Can you say George Orwell?
Oh, good grief.
The question of whether "a right was violated" would actually have to be settled by a court case. I'd doubt any will come of it, as court cases are monstrously expensive in money and time out of your life. To my mind, yes, it does violate the rights of those who own the dreaded Glock model in question. It does so because it violates the presumption of innocence inherent in our legal system. It does so because it violates, at least functionally, the prohibition against self incrimination; and of course, implies that anyone who won't "go along" must have something to hide. And it does so because it attempts to circumvent the 4th Amendment.
So yes, rights are violated, at least insofar as one can make that statement outside of a legal ruling.
Springmom, who's done trying to talk to a brick wall on this.
The question of whether "a right was violated" would actually have to be settled by a court case. I'd doubt any will come of it, as court cases are monstrously expensive in money and time out of your life. To my mind, yes, it does violate the rights of those who own the dreaded Glock model in question. It does so because it violates the presumption of innocence inherent in our legal system. It does so because it violates, at least functionally, the prohibition against self incrimination; and of course, implies that anyone who won't "go along" must have something to hide. And it does so because it attempts to circumvent the 4th Amendment.
So yes, rights are violated, at least insofar as one can make that statement outside of a legal ruling.
Springmom, who's done trying to talk to a brick wall on this.
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