Straw Purchase: What would you do?
- Thread starter Big Calhoun
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2TransAms
Member
I say MYOB and let the gun store clerk decide if it's a straw purchase. It's their job. Being a libertarian,I believe that straw purchases are a load of BS anyway so I'm even less inclined to butt in.
"But what if he shot somebody?" I would ask how,in any way,am I responsible for that? Because I saw what might be a straw purchase and didn't stop it? You can take a situation like the OP's and for all you know he decided on a better pistol and went to get $50 from his girlfriend.
"But what if he shot somebody?" I would ask how,in any way,am I responsible for that? Because I saw what might be a straw purchase and didn't stop it? You can take a situation like the OP's and for all you know he decided on a better pistol and went to get $50 from his girlfriend.
Clarify please? Are you talking about guns or getting on a gov't poop-list because of your actions (or lack of actions)?wally said:
Big Calhoun
Member
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2006
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- 554
I can understand and respect the feelings behind just minding my own business.
However, the way I see it, we are all in this fight together. If a gun store or range goes down, it affects us all. One less place to shop, one less place to shoot, and one more strike against all us evil gun owners. More than that, I consider the folks at this particular store to be my friends. Very knowledgable, very courteous...I rarely go shopping or plinking elsewhere. So I guess it's not just about helping the 'fight' but also being a good neighbor and patron.
I think in the future, I'll double-check to make sure what I see is what is actually going on. But I don't think I can just take the 'mind your own business' stance.
However, the way I see it, we are all in this fight together. If a gun store or range goes down, it affects us all. One less place to shop, one less place to shoot, and one more strike against all us evil gun owners. More than that, I consider the folks at this particular store to be my friends. Very knowledgable, very courteous...I rarely go shopping or plinking elsewhere. So I guess it's not just about helping the 'fight' but also being a good neighbor and patron.
I think in the future, I'll double-check to make sure what I see is what is actually going on. But I don't think I can just take the 'mind your own business' stance.
cnorman18
Member
MYOB if it's the ATF?
What if he was watching the ATF set up a gun shop owner? I wouldn't put it an inch past them to deliberately deceive an FFL holder, considering how they've been shutting gun shops down for trivial paperwork violations. They set up Randy Weaver, too.
I don't like the laws either, but our friends the gun shop owners have to live with them.
Either way: the OP thought he saw the owner about to become the victim of a crime that could have seen his place of business shut down. The OP did the right thing.
What if he was watching the ATF set up a gun shop owner? I wouldn't put it an inch past them to deliberately deceive an FFL holder, considering how they've been shutting gun shops down for trivial paperwork violations. They set up Randy Weaver, too.
I don't like the laws either, but our friends the gun shop owners have to live with them.
Either way: the OP thought he saw the owner about to become the victim of a crime that could have seen his place of business shut down. The OP did the right thing.
Gun shops tend to have video surveillance.
There's nothing illegal about a gun shop selling a gun to someone who signs the paperwork. If the shop sells to a pair of people and it's clear that the purchaser isn't the guy on the 4473, the gun shop has broken the law. That's a straw purchase, and every gun shop owner and employee knows it.
If the gun shop sells the gun to an individual, who then, at another location, passes the gun to someone else, then the gun shop is not at fault. There's no way for the FFL to control what happens to the gun after it's out of his sight.
A review of the videotape should show whether the shop is actually making straw sales.
(I understand, F Troop isn't always reasonable.)
There's nothing illegal about a gun shop selling a gun to someone who signs the paperwork. If the shop sells to a pair of people and it's clear that the purchaser isn't the guy on the 4473, the gun shop has broken the law. That's a straw purchase, and every gun shop owner and employee knows it.
If the gun shop sells the gun to an individual, who then, at another location, passes the gun to someone else, then the gun shop is not at fault. There's no way for the FFL to control what happens to the gun after it's out of his sight.
A review of the videotape should show whether the shop is actually making straw sales.
(I understand, F Troop isn't always reasonable.)
cnorman18
Member
MYOB if it's the ATF?
What if he was watching the ATF set up a gun shop owner? I wouldn't put it an inch past them to deliberately deceive an FFL holder, considering how they've been shutting gun shops down for trivial paperwork violations. They set up Randy Weaver, too.
I don't like the laws either, but our friends the gun shop owners have to live with them.
Either way: the OP thought he saw the owner about to become the victim of a crime that could have seen his place of business shut down. The OP did the right thing.
What if he was watching the ATF set up a gun shop owner? I wouldn't put it an inch past them to deliberately deceive an FFL holder, considering how they've been shutting gun shops down for trivial paperwork violations. They set up Randy Weaver, too.
I don't like the laws either, but our friends the gun shop owners have to live with them.
Either way: the OP thought he saw the owner about to become the victim of a crime that could have seen his place of business shut down. The OP did the right thing.
StuckInMA
Member
If it was my local gun shop I would have done the same. I've built up a pretty good relationship with the owner over the years so I'd hate to see him get setup with a bassackwards Bloomberg type sting. He's been trained to spot this type of activity but I don't think a heads up would hurt.
I don't think I'd do the same if it was a shop I didn't frequent though. Not because I wouldn't care if it was a sting. I'd just feel like a moron if it turned out that they were "regulars" doing something harmless.
Thought provoking question though.
I don't think I'd do the same if it was a shop I didn't frequent though. Not because I wouldn't care if it was a sting. I'd just feel like a moron if it turned out that they were "regulars" doing something harmless.
Thought provoking question though.
Dick1911
Member
I believe you did the right and honorable thing.
I'm glad you noticed as I am typically running on tunnel vision and wouldn't have seen a thing.
I feel that there should be minimal limitations on gun ownership, but when something like that happens it always makes it bad for the rest of us law abiding citizens that wouldn't be using a gun to commit a crime to start with.
I'm glad you noticed as I am typically running on tunnel vision and wouldn't have seen a thing.I feel that there should be minimal limitations on gun ownership, but when something like that happens it always makes it bad for the rest of us law abiding citizens that wouldn't be using a gun to commit a crime to start with.
alucard0822
Member
I don't like the 2A infringing laws on the books either, and do my part in fighting them, while following those crappy laws, but such is the burdon of being a "law abiding" citizen. That shop is the source of the owners livelyhood, and as the current state of affairs is, the ATF, news outfits, and sheeple look at closing him down for a straw purchase, uncrossed t, or undotted i as a victory. I was present during a similar occurance at a gun show where an ATF agent was "made" by one shop employee, and the next table he visited, he was politely informed "We offer a 10% discount to all military and law enforcement personnel, let me know if there is anything you would like to look at officer", he promptly left. Here in MD our fearmongering leaders are fighting their "war on illegal guns", which actually includes basically all guns, as the crime rate in B-more keeps rising like the wonka-vator, their target tends to be the many honest, small family buisnesses in the area, and as a law abiding gunny, who personally knows, and shoots with a few shop owners, I will do as you did, to politely, and annonimously alert them to any outwardly suspicious activity I see, just as I would alert a neighbor to a suspicious person trying to talk to their kids, or walking around their house at night.
MisterPX
Member
I hope you guys decide to MYOB if I rob a bank. Nobody's gettin hurt, so you guys shouldn't call the cops on me.
Doggy Daddy
Member
<sarcasm> Now I don't know whether to buy one of them "No Snitchin'" t-shirts, or wait for the "MYOB" fleece hoodie. </sarcasm> 
tinygnat219
Member
Big Calhoun,
Not sure how you could have done it better. You had good reflexes, and good intentions. I know the store appreciates it as you could have saved their FFL.
Goodonya!
Not sure how you could have done it better. You had good reflexes, and good intentions. I know the store appreciates it as you could have saved their FFL.
Goodonya!
03Shadowbob
Member
If the store does something wrong then too damn bad. Gun stores that do things wrong will give us just as bad a name if not worse.
When people stick their noses in where it shouldn't be, it kinda reminds me of something..oh what was that...right on the tip of my tongue...oh yeah, the government's ability to eavesdrop on peoples conversations and phone calls and put up video cameras on street corners. Hey, they are only doing it for our good, just like you are doing it for the gun store's good.
When people stick their noses in where it shouldn't be, it kinda reminds me of something..oh what was that...right on the tip of my tongue...oh yeah, the government's ability to eavesdrop on peoples conversations and phone calls and put up video cameras on street corners. Hey, they are only doing it for our good, just like you are doing it for the gun store's good.
Did you stop to ponder,, it just might be for her son as a gift and he was helping, or another reasonable reason? I suppose not.
This running to Tell someone makes me wonder about the mindset of 1930's Germany or several socialist country's of this and the last century compared to here today.
Free men thinking like this is much more frightening to me than someone buying another a firearm.
This running to Tell someone makes me wonder about the mindset of 1930's Germany or several socialist country's of this and the last century compared to here today.
Free men thinking like this is much more frightening to me than someone buying another a firearm.
aaronrkelly
Member
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2005
- Messages
- 1,087
Im not the police or a detective nor do I have the necessary skills to do their job.
So I dont.....
I keep to myself and I understand that actions or information taken out of context can tell a very different story.....as you witnessed. I also realize that I could bind someone up pretty bad by sticking my nose somewhere where it doesnt belong.
So I dont.....
I keep to myself and I understand that actions or information taken out of context can tell a very different story.....as you witnessed. I also realize that I could bind someone up pretty bad by sticking my nose somewhere where it doesnt belong.
I've gone into gun shops and looked at guns and then later told my wife which ones I'd like to have. She bought me a nice Saiga .223 for our 10th anniversary, so I guess that could be considered a straw purchase. I also bought my nephew a 91/30 last year for Christmas. He didn't explicitly request it, but I had to wonder when I filled out the form where it asks about buying for other people.
Mind your own business is a wonderful piece of advice and is applicable in 99% of situations. I think this is one of them for several reasons. First, you aren't the ATF. Second, you don't work for the gunshop and it isn't your job to spot strawpurchases. Third, unless you have some sort of indisputable proof i.e. hearing someone talk about what they are going to do, usually what is percieved isn't the case. Its seems thats what happened here.
Fourth and the most important of reasons, even if everything you percieve is actually happening, getting involved will result in you having to deal with people and things which are better left alone. We aren't talking about people in imminent danger or life or limb, we are talking about technical laws being broken. As such I'm not going to do anything that means dealing with Mr. ATF man, Mr police man or anyone else that could make my life worse.
Fourth and the most important of reasons, even if everything you percieve is actually happening, getting involved will result in you having to deal with people and things which are better left alone. We aren't talking about people in imminent danger or life or limb, we are talking about technical laws being broken. As such I'm not going to do anything that means dealing with Mr. ATF man, Mr police man or anyone else that could make my life worse.
I was at my local pawn shop and a guy was in looking at the pistols. He went outside and I saw him talking to a girl in his/there car. She went in and bought a pistol he had been looking at then went back out and left I am not sure if he was with her or not I had went back inside. I told the owner about what I saw and he said her FOID check had gone through so she was clear to pick the gun up in three days. He said he would make a note of it to ask her about the guy. Don't know how it came out. But I think this happens alot as when I worked at a pawn shop I know I had people try it there. The lady who owned the shop didn't care as long as the person who was buying the gun had a FOID and the sale got the ok from the state to her it was a sale.
Dick1911
Member
I understand the concern about MYOB - but in this case all that was done was to inform the store owner. It's up to the owner to decide if he's happy with the situation or not and act as he thinks best and legal.
If Big Calhoun thought there was something funny he did the right thing, it didn't sound to me like he was lurking in the parking lot listening in, he just noticed behaviour he thought was suspicious. Ultimately he's just trying to protect his own interests with the RKBA.
It would be a totally different situation if he had called the authorities and made a report of the situation on the information he had.
If Big Calhoun thought there was something funny he did the right thing, it didn't sound to me like he was lurking in the parking lot listening in, he just noticed behaviour he thought was suspicious. Ultimately he's just trying to protect his own interests with the RKBA.
It would be a totally different situation if he had called the authorities and made a report of the situation on the information he had.
cambeul41
Member
If you believe that what we call straw purchases should be legal, do nothing.
Otherwise, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke).
Otherwise, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke).
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