Target Store: Moms 10,000 sign Petition to Ban Guns

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So how does this bear on the claim that activists are closing down places where you can carry?



Depends on if these places go from this sign...

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To this sign...

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As a TX CHL holder one is okay for me to ignore and one is not. I do not frequent any of the chains that have made national news lately to see if they have changed/posted legal signage since this debacle has started.
 
"Police are investigating how a loaded gun wound up among children's toys at a Target store in South Carolina."
Clearly it was placed there by Bloomberg's bodyguards. No "real" gun owner would be so irresponsible. Just another false flag operation in effect.*





*what someone will certainly say.
 
Actually, this started because someone planted a loaded gun in the toy aisle of a target store- not because of OCT.


which I see I was beaten to while taking a payment, lol
 
Actually, this started because someone planted a loaded gun in the toy aisle of a target store- not because of OCT.
ABC News says the the planted gun and the petition are unrelated. Yes I know it is the mainstream media and they do distort the news. But that is what they are reporting.


"The discovery comes as Target and other retailers face pressure to prohibit customers from carrying guns into their stores. On Wednesday, the group Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America launched a petition asking the company to prevent customers from carrying firearms in Target stores. The petition is unrelated to the discovery of the gun in South Carolina."

Eh, who knows...maybe "Mom's" might force Target to change their name too..cause Targets are using in shooting guns. Maybe "Mom's" might make Target change their name to something 'less offensive' like "Store with Stuff"

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When is the last time we've seen this much disdain and lack of respect for fellow legal gun owners, of any stripe? This lack of civility, the shouting, the name calling, the slander, the giant, caps, bright blue, bold text?

Do we want know why these stores are being targeted by Mom's? Because they smell blood in the water from our internal conflict. Open Carry is a soft spot, where gun owners do not uniformly rebuff their advances like plate armor, like we do on practically every other issue.

-We stood united on AWB's after '94 betrayed so many of us
-We stood united on CC ban statutes
-We stood united on magazine bans
-We stood united on pistol/gun possession bans
-We stood almost unanimously united on universal background checks
-We are hopelessly divided on open carry

I keep hearing the refrain; "no one wants to ban open carry." To that I say; "no one wants to ban guns, either." The kind of vitriol being hurled at the idiots who've made themselves a spectacle by our side is disgusting. Vitriol far too emotional and ardent to be merely the result of a 'condemnation of their specific tactics.' It smells far more like base moral outrage that people would dare to carry rifles in public; that there should be a law.

You cannot think open carry should be lawful, and simultaneously claim moral outrage when people do. You can ignore them, you can reprimand them, you can even disown them as they have rightfully been disowned by OCT; but the level of attack I've seen is nothing less than a clear opposition; that open carry should not be tolerated. I'm sorry; you cannot effectively support open carry while condemning it. It is flagrantly disingenuous.

To the readers on The High Road, I implore you all to ask yourself some questions;
-Are we sure we really want open carry to be legal?
-If open carry is legal, should we be surprised that people exercise it?
-If people exercise open carry, should we surprised that some people are less than polite about it?
-Does impolite carry actually harm or endanger anyone if safety rules are otherwise followed?
-Are there just laws to prevent unsafe behavior/consequences of the same already?
-Do we aspire to base our laws upon limiting harm to each other, or do we aspire to use them to constrain undesired behavior?
-Do open carriers truly present more of a threat to the public than concealed carriers?
-Would the kind of responsible, respectable gun owners we seek to make our fellow citizens into act out in impolite ways in the first place?
-If not, why constrain the act of open carry, as opposed to promoting more acceptable behavior in practicing the same?

Be honest with yourself. The way I see it, the OC people (such as myself) have a very clear view of the topic at hand, but are pursuing it blind to political realities and therefore hit a ton of push-back. The opposing side, anti's as well as antagonistic gun owners, seem very conflicted themselves as to what they would rather see done; I'm even seeing all sorts of Fudd nonsense creeping back into the discussion. Claims that Mini 14's, shotguns, or bolt actions should be used for demonstration rather than AR15's. I thought we'd all agreed that we wouldn't tolerate that kind of crap from our side ever again, in order to maintain a solid front against Assault Weapons Bans. And yet, here it is again, likely from the same people who denigrated militant gun nuts' military weapons of war in the bad old days. For shame.

For all the outrage about how much theoretical damage the OC demonstrations in TX have cause, I demand to those outraged; look around you. See how much dis-harmony and animosity is being leveled by gun owners against each other. We cannot win this way. We cannot even protect the gains we've made, in such a state. All the anti's have to do now, is tie assault weapons to OC'ers in their propaganda, and we will be in serious danger of losing ground once more. Hell, I'll do it for them; open carriers of long guns seem to favor assault weapons.

We have got to resolve this dispute, and agree to get along. The OC protestors have got to understand the magnitude of their actions, and tread loudly, but wisely. The anti-OC gun-rights people have got to understand that OC must be won in order to firmly ensconce gun rights. You've heard all the arguments, so I won't go over them here; but suffice it to say, we cannot stop short of anything but constitutional carry anywhere, or we risk backsliding into restriction. It does not matter what the anti's/undecided think; they are wrong, we are right. We will never win unless our ranks accept this tenant. We may differ on how to arrive at our goal most effectively, but we will never complete the journey if we are not unanimous on the destination at the outset.

Please reconsider your animosity towards open-carry and its protestors; especially brothers hailing from states that already have it. You are not endangered by the acts of Texans any more than your bolt rifles were endangered by AR15s. We face an implacable opponent; ignorance and authoritarianism. It can only be beaten back by a unified front, and the war will only shift to another sector of life after we have firmly enshrined an unadulterated right to keep and bear arms. That means in any manner that does not conflict with the rights of others.

TCB
 
Actually, this started because someone planted a loaded gun in the toy aisle of a target store- not because of OCT.
Oh, but some careless and reckless Yosemite Sam open carrier obviously dropped it while shooting holes in the floor/ceiling during his protest. The hell it's not related to OC. It's meant to plant the seed that the presence of (identifiable) gun-carriers leads to the presence of loose guns. Loose guns are the anti's/parent's worst nightmare. If they can link that with OC, it's done for.

TCB
 
I don't understand what open carry has to do with a potential psychopath leaving a loaded gun intentionally where someone will find it. They should ban "leaving guns accessible to unauthorized individuals on purpose" instead.
 
the giant, caps, bright blue, bold text?
Thanks for calling me out, sparky! You probably should learn the definition of slander though. ;)

Repeatedly claiming that these public displays have no provable negative effect on the general population and blaming the media is just as asinine as giant blue text.

It's painfully myopic of you to say things like, "If open carry is legal, should we be surprised that people exercise it?" as an excuse. We support freedom if speech, but we would certainly be surprised and likely upset if someone ran around the mall yelling, "Jesus was a jackass his followers are morons!!" Do we want that behavior to be illegal? No. Do we want it to the norm? Certainly not. Do I believe in free speech? Yes. Am I going to support the Westboro Baptist Church actions that are protected under the first amendment? Not a chance in hell.
 
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Repeatedly claiming that these public displays have no provable negative effect on the general population and blaming the media is just as asinine as giant blue text.
I'm not defending counter-productive tactics. I'm calling out nothing other than your/others' rude manner. I usually refrain from busting people about being sarcastic/mocking of others, but it's conflagrating rapidly around here --and it is far more damaging than OC could ever be. I chose your mocking treatise because it was the most obvious example (for the above reasons, which is also why you chose the font you did)

Am I going to support the Westboro Baptist Church actions that are protected under the first amendment? Not a chance in hell.
The difference, is that you are not trying to work with the Westboro Baptist Morons to promote a policy initiative. In fact, you are likely adamantly opposed to the "__ hates ____" rhetoric, as well as their incredibly offensive activities at military funerals. By comparing OC'ers who are a bit too crass (and it really is just "a bit" too crass; we'd have much less issue with them protesting outside or down the street, or even just carrying in a scabbard or with hands off the gun like the law requires) with the most repugnant bigots this country has seen since a resurgent Ku Klux Klan...

...that just smacks of the same hyperbole that is our opposition's coin. Our cause needs both sides of the OC issue to realize that OC is necessary to our ultimate victory, and that we should strive to be the paragons of our society; those worthy of being trusted with power and freedom (i.e. not rude a-holes; pro or anti open-carry)

"Can't we all just get along?" (with gun owners, at least ;))

TCB
 
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Barnbwt, I most certainly can support Open Carry while at the same time condemn foolish behavior done in the name of a protest.

The guys carrying rifles into privately-owned urban businesses are not doing it because its normal behavior. People don't walk about their daily life carrying rifles on 3 point slings. Handguns in holsters, openly displayed or concealed, sure. But I carried a rifle as an infantryman, and it's not convenient. Its a pain in the rear doing daily tasks with a rifle hanging off you.

The guys doing this are doing it to be provacative and take selfies to share with friends.


Guns are not props to be used for attention-seeking stunts.

I support open carry. I do not support this juvenile behavior.
 
I don't understand what open carry has to do with a potential psychopath leaving a loaded gun intentionally where someone will find it.
Lots of people on some level imbue guns with free will; ergo, a gun will 'lose itself' or 'go off' if present in the company of decent people. Obviously, this is a lazy/idle thought, so it does occur to these same people so long as they cannot see the gun (and we all know CCW'ers occasionally lose and negligently fire guns, themselves, so it's not like it's a carry-method specific issue)

TCB
 
-We stood united on AWB's after '94 betrayed so many of us
-We stood united on CC ban statutes
-We stood united on magazine bans
-We stood united on pistol/gun possession bans
-We stood almost unanimously united on universal background checks
-We are hopelessly divided on open carry

There is nothing wrong with open carry. Even in open carry states like mine here in Kentucky. Not many open carry here, and we have had open carry since becoming a state. Laws against concealed carry came into effect around 1820.

Having said that, if I lived in Texas I would join a march, a demonstration, a protest or whatever in favor of open carry. But I would take part in public demonstrations, on public land, down Main St to the Court House and back. Hell, even march to the State Capitol and back.

But I would not take it into any business. Why?

#1. I would not want to piss off the business or the customers. People are there to shop or eat or whatever. They are there to purchase items or to consume food. Why should I be selfish enough to invade their space to make some political point?

Besides the stores or the restaurants cannot make laws, pass laws or change laws to make Texas a open carry state. People are there shopping or consuming whatever. The last thing I would want to do is piss them off and have them angry at firearms owners for invading their space.

#2 The business could end up banning carrying of firearms, not just in Texas but throughout the country if it is a National Chain. And I would not want to be responsible for being a part of causing the company to ban firearms because I was trying to make a political statement to a captive audience.

#3. My actions could end up hurting the OCT cause in the long run by creating a backlash against any form of carry. And lets not forget what they did in California in 1966 with the Mulford Act and again more recently where any kind of carrying unloaded was made illegal.

The way to change things is do have these events or photo ops in public arenas and events. Have a press conference, invite the media, pass out reading material, educate, make speeches.

Write legislation and have someone sponsor it and get it into committee. Protest at the State Capitol in Austin where it will do some good, not some restaurant where it is going to end up pissing people off.

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The guys carrying rifles into privately-owned urban businesses are not doing it because its normal behavior.
Well, the guys are activists (crappy ones, sure), so I kind of expect them to behave at least somewhat out of the ordinary. Protesting/picketing is kind of unusual behavior, as well, but it's obnoxious/annoying nature is tolerated in literally all other circles. Still not defending their tactics, btw, but I do defend OC protestor's need to generate some level of controversy (just so long as it's not 'monoversy' ;))

Handguns in holsters, openly displayed or concealed, sure.
Neither is legal in Texas. People seem to keep forgetting this, or pretend like the presence of guns at a protest for guns is a completely unimportant aspect of the whole issue. We can't carry handguns openly. We can't protest with them concealed, since revealing you are carrying is a crime. Basically, we cannot show anyone guns in public is not the horror its claimed with anything other than rifles. Our hands are tied. Telling us to keep our hands behind us even as the bonds are cut makes the whole endeavor moot, and pointless to fight for.

The guys doing this are doing it to be provacative and take selfies to share with friends.
We have laws specifically barring the carrying of rifles "in a manner calculated to cause alarm." It's how that guy in Waco was arrested for walking some back-roads along with his son for his Boy Scout merit badge requirements. If these guys were present for an extended time in the Chipotle (i.e. not snapping a selife, and yelling "Cheese it!" before bolting) openly brandishing firearms, we should really be taking our outrage to the police for tolerating unsafe/irresponsible gunplay. You are right guns aren't toys. You should keep them out of your hands unless you are using them; same as any other object. Walking around with a hammer or knife in hand where it would cause alarm is also illegal, for the same reasons.

Open carry is not synonymous with irresponsible or reckless carry any more than it is with reckless or negligent discharge. People who conflate it with those acts are really in need of a better examination of the issue, since they are letting their perceptions be defined by the PR machinations of fools and would-be tyrants.

TCB
 
Also ask the person who started it, if they will be held responsible when someone gets shot by an armed robber, who may have been stopped by an armed citizen.

Unfortunately in most states you would be responsible IF you got involved as a gun owner during an armed robbery and couldn't show you were acting in Self DEFENSE. This I'm a gun owner cowboy attitude is NOT helping the cause. Take a GOOD practical live fire (rubber/plastic bullet) situational course and you'll see how ineffective you are and how many times getting involved can esculate the situation and get MORE people KILLED.
 
the stores or the restaurants cannot make laws, pass laws or change laws to make Texas a open carry state.
They could allow a place for people to exercise open carry, though (everyone assumes businesses have only one option on this matter, but that is simply not true. Chipotle could put out a statement specifically saying they will prosecute any protesters carrying in a way calculated to cause alarm, but they instead put out a means-nothing statement; even 30-06 signs could be defended as 'a response,' but a voluntary sign to "not be a jerk" is very weak tea.)

The business could end up banning carrying of firearms, not just in Texas but throughout the country if it is a National Chain.
But I thought they couldn't make laws? They can only make laws forbidding weapons carry on the premises? If we based all our actions on what is easy for others to make rash and improper decisions around, we'd all be wearing flannel and using wood/steel bolt guns so as to look as non-threatening and irrelevant to the multitudes of city-dwellers at the polls as possible.

TCB
 
I'm a gun owner cowboy attitude is NOT helping the cause.
I believe that stopping an ongoing forcible felony that threatens the life of another (maybe not even that, as in rape, for instance) is sufficient cause for intervention in some states (I'm thinking Texas, though I'm not studied on the subject).

...you'll see how ineffective you are and how many times getting involved can esculate the situation and get MORE people KILLED.
And yet...that's exactly what we'd expect a policeman with probably less firearms-training than non-LEO to do for the guy getting beaten to death on the street corner. You are conflating tactics with means. In some circumstances, a passerby's intervention can make all the difference, for the better.

TCB
 
Vern do you have ANY evidence that these actions by the people in texas is doing ANYTHING positive
Let me explain: They are exercising their rights under two articles of the Bill of Rights, the First and Second.

A right, by definition, is something you don't NEED to justify.
 
Then exercise your rights in a public place not at a private business.

This is being done to hopefully change state law not to get a business to change their policies. Don't drag them into it, they are under no obligation to allow you to exercise your rights on their property.

Note: I'm referring to the planned demonstrations not going about normal daily activities.
 
I think we, as gun owners should just take "The high road" on this one.

And just give them overly nice generic letter

Dear (companies entities),

It seems (company) has been caught in the recent firestorm involving sweeping change in the firearm policies of a few other companies.
As an American, I'm a strong advocate of firearms and the second amendment.
Being an American, I also support your rights, as a private business (owner), to guide your company in any path you wish.
I, nor is any entity, entitled to dictate policy in a privately owned business.
I support your right to choose the direction you see fit.
Ultimately whatever decision is made, is the right decision, for the business and bottomline.

Sincerely,
xxxxxxxxxxx
 
Handguns in holsters, openly displayed or concealed, sure.

Neither is legal in Texas. People seem to keep forgetting this, or pretend like the presence of guns at a protest for guns is a completely unimportant aspect of the whole issue. We can't carry handguns openly. We can't protest with them concealed, since revealing you are carrying is a crime. Basically, we cannot show anyone guns in public is not the horror its claimed with anything other than rifles. Our hands are tied. Telling us to keep our hands behind us even as the bonds are cut makes the whole endeavor moot, and pointless to fight for.
Exactly.

Let those of us who do not approve of these protests do something else to advance the cause, instead of whining about what others are doing.
 
@barnbwt

so how is the OC protest working for you guys? Any examples where it achieved something?

Because if you do it over and over again - and it always leads to the same outcome (= chains banning OC on their premises) ... then MAYBE it's time to rethink the strategy :banghead:
 
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