The most important physical skill for CCW is... grappling?

[shafter]

I submit that if you've gotten to the grappling stage, then you've largely lost your opportunity to effectively deploy your firearm in defense.

At this point, grappling becomes as much about retention as it is survival.

Being able to defend yourself in hand-to-hand is indeed a valuable skill. But its importance is relative to everything else going on in any given encounter. For instance, my ability to defend myself hand-to-hand is of lesser value if I can engage an attacker BEFORE he can lay his hands on me.

ANY form of defense/combat has its strength and weaknesses. And all encounters are to be conducted in a fashion which benefits your own strengths and plays on their own weaknesses. As a person who is not, by nature, a violent person at 5' 9" and 175 pounds, it is a losing proposition for me to go up against a 6'-plus, 225 pound violent person hand-to-hand.

This isn't Hollywood...real life violent encounters are distinctly...not nice.

As I said before...it IS a valuable skill, and certainly good to have in one's toolbox in order to be able to integrate it when needed. But it's not unilaterally the most important one.

That's 100 percent true what you say about losing the advantage if you aren't able to deploy your gun prior to going hands on, however grappling may be the only option you have if deploying a firearm isn't justifiable yet. Someone can charge towards me and grab me and I'm not justified on drawing on them unless they have a weapon or you can reasonably articulate why you thought this was a deadly attack.

 

[Conelrad]

Having some unarmed fighting capability is just one more option (a very useful option since it does not require any tools) in the box of available options, but the most potent is the mind a flexible mind willing to consider all options.

"When your mind is a weapon you are never unarmed." -Malcolm X

My favorite example is a van full of attackers rolls up on a single man pumping gas. They exit the vehicle clearly set on physically assaulting and robbing the guy pumping gas. He quickly realizes this and what does he do. He doesn't draw a gun, he doesn't execute some spectacular martial art that lets him beat the out numbering attackers. He simply turns the gas pump on them and hoses them all down. It was a spectacular example of thinking on your feet and using what is immediately available to defend yourself. In that particular case I would argue it worked better than any amount of martial prowess could have give the outnumbering attackers.



“A weapon is a tool," she repeated, a little breathlessly. "A tool for killing and destroying. And there will be times when, as an Envoy, you must kill and destroy. Then you will choose and equip yourself with the tools that you need. But remember the weakness of weapons. They are an extension--you are the killer and destroyer. You are whole, with or without them.” - Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon <-Spectacular modern Noir/Cyberpunk novel, the first of an exceptional trilogy.

 

[Conelrad]

My reply would be "Say, got a light"?

Conelrad

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

That's 100 percent true what you say about losing the advantage if you aren't able to deploy your gun prior to going hands on, however grappling may be the only option you have if deploying a firearm isn't justifiable yet. Someone can charge towards me and grab me and I'm not justified on drawing on them unless they have a weapon or you can reasonably articulate why you thought this was a deadly attack.

Absolutely.

I think in many cases in this thread, we're all in agreement on some level.

But...words have meaning. Unfortunately, on a text-only medium (even if it does have provisions to post pics and vids), the ONLY way we have to communicate our full meaning is through the written word.

At issue here is the phrasing of "The most important physical skill for CCW is... grappling?"

The video does a better job of communicating the intended meaning. But the reality is that "grappling" is really "the most important physical skill" at the moment it's actually needed. (Like @Kleanbore pointed out in response to my last post.)

Take any given self-defense scenario (and every one is unique in its own way), slow it down, and observe. Each will have moments (plural) in which one skill or another will be "the most important".

My viewpoint is holistic...in other words, broaden your horizon to encompass the totality of the various skills, abilities, and conditions and work to improve yourself in meaningful ways.

For example...if you lack physical strength and endurance, then perhaps engaging in exercises which will improve these. If you lack the capability to improve these for some reason (such as handicaps, debilitating disease, etc.), then work on alternatives suitable to your particular weaknesses to compensate.

If you are overweight to the point that it limits your ability to reasonably defend yourself by various means, then work on that.

If you suck at drawing and putting rounds on target, then work on that.

If you have poor observational skills and awareness of your surroundings, then work on improving that.

If you have never honestly studied the jurisdictional laws on self-defense and deadly force with respect to firearms, knives, etc., then this is a sadly deficient area that needs to be worked on.

Perhaps take some classes on various aspects.

Certainly we don't all have to have the capabilities of Batman, Doc Savage, Jack Reacher, etc., obviously. But we can always improve.

Take a look at your current skills and ask yourself where you need to improve, and then prioritize them. This list, and the prioritization associated with it, will be different from person to person.

For a newbie to carrying, such a list might have things like learning jurisdictional laws, how to carry effectively, how to properly care for his firearm, and how to best present, control, and put rounds on target as a higher priority than most other things.

For someone like me who has no problems putting rounds on target and who has had at least some modest martial arts training, I would place a higher priority on attending defensive training classes (which I've never done and I KNOW would help develop my skills and point out my weaknesses). I have a brother who has trained in martial arts for over 50 years who showed me something I'd never seen before, a martial arts instructor who gives martial arts training involving the use of firearms...not the traditional use of martial arts most people think of against an armed attacker (empty handed or with various traditional martial arts weapons like the bo or whatnot), but a martial artist armed with a firearm trained to engage with that weapon in an attack. (It's fascinating, by the way.)

"The most important" (whatever thing) to work on is what each of us is deficient in.

We don't all have to train to the extremes to be a Batman, Doc Savage, or Jack Reacher, obviously. But we do all have to recognize the need to train and do something about it.

 

[fastbolt]

I guess we should expect hyperbole such as this from someone who makes money teaching grappling.

I disagree with this guy's statement.

While it should be clear that anyone who carries a firearm for defensive purposes absolutely should train and practice weapons retention AND must strive to maintain the highest level of physical fitness their bodies are capable of, to say that grappling is the single most important physical skill when it comes to sefl-defense with a handgun is rather preposterous.

A large portion of those who carry firearms for self-defense do so because they are already disadvantaged physically -- based on age, prior injuries, physical disabilities, gender, smaller stature. Who am I kidding if I were to proclaim to some of these folks that it's more important for them to learn grappling and train in it, rather than improving things like their mode of carry, mechanics of their draw strokes, shooting precision and accuracy?

I had to step down from the tactical team in my late 50s because frankly, I couldn't keep up in the physical arena. With both shoulders crap and surgically repaired, after a knee replacement, hands, wrists, elbows, back and knees riddled with arthritis, I'm not gonna kid myself -- the only way I'm gonna prevail in hand-to-hand fighting right now is if my opponent is in worse physical shape than I am (or agrees to fight under Marquis of Queensbury boxing rules, I still have some residual boxing skills). Running? Ha! Hell, I'm reduced to my elliptical and a bicycle; even swimming is a chore now. Grappling requires constant training in good techniques and also maintaining upper body, core and lower body strength. That's just not possible for a lot of folks. I'm done with getting thrown to the mat a bunch of times during a four-hour class.

So no, for many of us, what our man in the video has to say is just more noise.

I stopped browsing the thread topic at this post ... because I was nodding my head in agreement. Yep, even for those of us who had to keep up with whatever DT our agencies required, and who had some background in martial arts, the normal 'entropy' which comes to us all with the accumulation of normal aging, injuries and having to learn to work around assorted maladies means we have to adjust.

I certainly have my fair share of work-related injuries and surgeries that followed me into retirement, as well as the results of 'youthful exuberance' from my younger martial arts days, and some additional injuries that have occurred in my retirement. Damn, right? Also, it took me more than a year to really begin recovering from my bout of cancer, with its successful surgery and chemo, but since it happened on the back half of my 50's, the added factor of age didn't exactly make it easy to come back and continue my desired level of physical exercise and martial arts practice. On the other hand, continuing to get older was far better than the alternative, right?

Of course, being able to take advantage of decades of experiential knowledge (like the lessons of real-world experience and the application of training), and learning how to apply those experiences with honed cunning and a 'bigger view' grasp of strategy ... not just tactics ... may help keep us in the mix as we try to gracefully age. (Albeit fighting against the inevitable results of age every step of the way.)

The bluster and sometimes thoughtless physical demonstration and application of youthful aggression may be better met with some judicious experience and well-seasoned cunning, if the strategy of avoidance fails. Also, having the knowledge and good judgment to know when enough is sufficient and reasonably enough is a good acquired skill, which is where some otherwise law-abiding folks may find themselves going from victim to suspect in the blink of an eye.

I agree that someone who makes their living also selling physical martial arts training is understandably going to seek to drum up business. Not surprising. Also nothing wrong with being a more well-rounded person from that perspective. Just remember that becoming injured during training is the Number One item under the heading of 'counter productive'. Talk to your healthcare folks, do an honest evaluation of your needs and physical abilities before doing somersaults out onto the mat and mixing it up with young people who have soft rubber for joints and connective tissues, and who may not have a governor on applying their musculature.

 

[Old Dog]

^ Very eloquently put, @fastbolt.

 

[gilgsn]

I just posted about the need for hand-to-hand training in another post, but about grappling, while it's a great skill to have, is not enough and can get you killed too if that's all you know. Grappling, or Jiu-Jitsu, and any other ground fighting sports, usually assumes one unarmed attacker... Add multiple attackers, or a knife, and all bets are off. Same goes if someone has their hands on your gun...
If you want good training, make sure that:

1. Ground as well as standing up fighting are practiced.
2. Multiple attackers are considered and practiced.
3. Weapons are considered and practiced.
4. Striking and getting hit are practiced.
5. Pressure testing and sparring are practiced.
6. Rolls are taught.

You might have to combine styles/practices to get what you need.
There are no excuses for not training. The criminal is not going to care that your leg hurts or that you only have one... You can always train around physical limitations without hurting yourself. The hardest part is to find a competent instructor...
Gil.

 

[jstert]

That is true. Use of force attorneys who follow the cases report that around 25% of the justifiable defensive course cases rise to the level of justifiable deadly force. Good idea to carry a less lethal means of defense.

if only we could do so lawfully, consistently, with confidence. although the 2a enshrines our natural right to bear arms, the issue of bearing non-firearm arms is very murky. try researching knife and baton laws of each state (major cities too). i travel alot, i want less-lethal defense options, i have tried researching and it’s an excercise in frustration. some states’ ccw permits may allow non-firearm arms but seems more by omission of mention than clear affirmation. naturally the antigun jurisdictions are the worst when it comes to lawful knife and baton carry options.

i variously boxed, wrestled, played rugby up to and through college. i was not unfamiliar with some level of physical confrontation at close-quarters, then. though i jog 4 miles daily now i am way past the ability to engage in close-quarters contact. i suppose that i could train up to a small degree, but realistically, not going to happen.

i would be happy to conceal carry a kosh or similar piece, but mere possession even at home is illegal in my locales. my job as an armed civilian is to avoid or remove myself from the threat, not remove the threat from society. so between judicious daily life activities in daylight only, situational awareness and a ccw handgun i have no other reasonable alternatives for my protection.

and yeah at some future, infirm, point in my life my ccw will be a ruger sr22 rimfire pistol only. you can be darn sure that i already know it intimately and can easily put multiple rounds on target as necessary.

 

[MEHavey]

That is true. Use of force attorneys who follow the cases report that around 25% of
the justifiable defensive course cases rise to the level of justifiable deadly force.

Attorney's have infinite time to sit back / analyze / ask what if?
Human beings tend to have real-world fractions of a second.
. . . . . with infinite consequences if they're wrong.

(Groucho Marx would understand.)

.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I just posted about the need for hand-to-hand training in another post, but about grappling, while it's a great skill to have, is not enough and can get you killed too if that's all you know. Grappling, or Jiu-Jitsu, and any other ground fighting sports, usually assumes one unarmed attacker... Add multiple attackers, or a knife, and all bets are off. Same goes if someone has their hands on your gun...
If you want good training, make sure that:

1. Ground as well as standing up fighting are practiced.
2. Multiple attackers are considered and practiced.
3. Weapons are considered and practiced.
4. Striking and getting hit are practiced.
5. Pressure testing and sparring are practiced.
6. Rolls are taught.

You might have to combine styles/practices to get what you need.
There are no excuses for not training. The criminal is not going to care that your leg hurts or that you only have one... You can always train around physical limitations without hurting yourself. The hardest part is to find a competent instructor...
Gil.

Good points.

I would also argue that most martial arts aren't being taught as combat skills. They're being taught as a sport, even when they're labeled as "self defense".

This is not to say that ALL are this way. Nor is it to say that such skills are not useful in actual self-defense.

To watch someone who is actually trained in real combat go up against someone who is not is...enlightening to say the least.

"Take downs", or whatever one wishes to call them, are done with an eye towards actual disabling the aggressor such that they stay down or are so badly injured that their effectiveness is immediately reduced. It's really brutal and the injuries are very real.

I only lightly studied martial arts, mostly decades ago with an older brother who taught me a few of the basics. That older brother now has over 50 years experience, was in the Marines, and also teaches.

 

[Hillbilly Hydrographics]

I'd rather throw hands then bullets. Growing up a southern country boy fighting has been a part of life since elementary school. I'd rather just mind my own business at all times. But ain't scared one bit about getting hands on if need arises. If threat calls for it and depending on the threat I will throw lead. One badguy trying lay hands on me I'm gonna be ready and willing to smash them. Several guys trying lay hands on me gonna get lead and quick. Threat coming at me with a weapon allready out gonna get lead and quick.

 

[Gun-Reck]

I'll just leave this right here.

- Jocko Willink -

​

 

[HKGuns]

As a wrestler, who is posting this response between sets of weights, I completely agree.

I can easily physically handle "Normal's" far larger and younger than myself, because of the skills I learned and practiced and because I choose to stay in shape.