tragic ending to a heroic act

[old lady new shooter]

You may have heard that Hamas perpetrated a terrorist attack in Jerusalem yesterday morning Israel time, killing three innocent civilians at a bus stop before being neutralized by two off-duty soldiers and an armed civilian. Tragically the soldiers then shot the armed civilian, thinking he was a terrorist also. He has now died of his wounds. This is an excellent horrifying example for the cautions we frequently see here about jumping into any kind of mass attack. In this case, the civilian himself had served in the Israeli security services.

I personally don't understand how if they saw him shooting at the terrorists, why they would imagine he was also a terrorist. Does this get investigated, or just chalked up to "the fog of war"?

You can read the news report at https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...dly-fire-during-terror-attack-dies-of-wounds/.

Rest in peace, Yuval Doron Castleman.

 

[Jeff White]

There are plenty of blue on blue encounters everywhere there are multiple armed “good guys” responding to an attack. It happens in military operations, it happens in LE where uniformed officers have been shot by other uniformed officers and plainclothes officers have been shot by responding officers. There are incidents where armed citizens have been shot by responding officers in mass shooting incidents.

The danger of being shot by first responders be they military or LE if you are visibly armed when they arrive is very real.

I personally don't understand how if they saw him shooting at the terrorists, why they would imagine he was also a terrorist.

You’ve never responded to a shooting before. It would be very easy to understand if you had. They had no way of knowing who was who. Until someone figures a way to put a “brightly glowing good guy halo” over the head of every good guy in these situations this kind of thing will continue to happen.

 

[Jim Watson]

The media slant is that this attack “strained the cease fire.”

 

[upptick]

They had no way of knowing who was who.

I have a buddy who's a LEO and when he's off duty he carries a chrome-plated extremely shiny S&W autoloader and if he ever has to use it when he's off duty he plans to phone in as soon as possible and tell the dispatch that the guy with "shiny gun" is a friendly and for responding officers to please not shoot him. In other words, the threat of a friendly getting shot by a cop dealing with chaos is great enough to have caused an experienced cop to have in place an entire plan designed to hopeully avoid the problem.

 

[Jeff White]

Years ago I lived even more rural then I do now. About 1:30 am my son woke me up and said someone had turned around in my driveway then pulled into my neighbors yard and was taking parts off of his truck. I knew my neighbor was out of town. I had my wife call the sheriff, give the dispatcher my name and ID number and that I was armed and I went over and held them until an on duty deputy arrived. Even though I knew that whoever responded would know me by sight I made sure that my hands were empty when the deputy arrived. That was my one and only off duty apprehension outside of my jurisdiction.

Working in a rural area I had occasion to respond when an armed citizen was holding a suspect or checking his property for an intruder. I always had dispatch tell them when I was coming up the drive and I lit up the light bar so there was no doubt who was approaching.

In the Army we used near and far recognition signals, running passwords and other TTPs to avoid fratricide.

Despite all precautions, it still happens. Multiple armed people in a tense situation is the basic recipe for a blue on blue shooting.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Followup, from https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/381229, emphasis added by me:

An initial investigation of the attack found that IDF soldiers who were involved in neutralizing the terrorists accidentally shot Kastelman, who had neutralized the terrorists first.​

​

Footage from the scene showed the man raising his hands while sitting on his knees on the road before being shot by the soldiers. He was evacuated to hospital in critical condition, and later succumbed to his injuries.​

 

[old lady new shooter]

The media slant is that this attack “strained the cease fire.”

The ceasefire is now officially over, Hamas not only failed to provide a list of new hostages for release, they violated the operational pause over an hour before the deadline by firing rockets into Israel. At 5 minutes after the deadline the IDF announced,

"Hamas violated the operational pause, and in addition, fired toward Israeli territory."​

​

"The IDF has resumed combat against the Hamas terrorist organization in the Gaza Strip."​

Live updates: IDF resumes combat against Hamas

Following rocket fire towards Israel, IDF announces renewal of fighting in Gaza. 'Hamas violated operational pause.'

www.israelnationalnews.com

 

[Jeff White]

The ceasefire is now officially over, Hamas not only failed to provide a list of new hostages for release, they violated the operational pause over an hour before the deadline by firing rockets into Israel. At 5 minutes after the deadline the IDF announced,

"Hamas violated the operational pause, and in addition, fired toward Israeli territory."​

​

"The IDF has resumed combat against the Hamas terrorist organization in the Gaza Strip."​

Live updates: IDF resumes combat against Hamas

Following rocket fire towards Israel, IDF announces renewal of fighting in Gaza. 'Hamas violated operational pause.'

www.israelnationalnews.com

We aren’t going to talk about the war in Israel here. That’s completely off topic. The only reason I let the thread run was that it’s another lesson about being visibly armed when the first responders arrive.

The next off topic post and this one is done.

 

[herrwalther]

In the Army we used near and far recognition signals, running passwords and other TTPs to avoid fratricide.

The Israelis do not use those nearly to the extent we do. It shows. Doing cross training with various Israeli units, they did not seem to understand the concept or need for reducing fratricide.

 

[Kleanbore]

One does not want to have gun in hand, or hands in pocket, in the seconds after a shooting occurs.

 

[N555]

That's why you run and only engage the mass shooter when they have you cornered.

 

[shafter]

Get the gun back in its holster the moment you safely can. There are way too many jumpy officers out there who even with a detailed description of you are still going to see the gun and take you for the threat. I imagine most armed citizens would be equally jumpy.

Unless someone understands all of the complexities of carrying a gun they should keep it in the safe until they do.

 

[old lady new shooter]

One does not want to have gun in hand, or hands in pocket, in the seconds after a shooting occurs.

He was on his knees with both hands in the air when they shot him.

 

[Jeff White]

He was on his knees with both hands in the air when they shot him.

That is completely immaterial. For all they knew he was a Hamas terrorist. Like it or not the rules are different in war. Hamas is not a uniformed force. I don't know what the ROE the soldiers were operating under and neither do you. It's a common tactic to lure enemy soldiers close by pretending to surrender and then detonating a charge. My son dealt with that in Iraq in 2006. I would say that the chances of a blue on blue incident are orders of magnitude greater in a war like Israel is fighting then in a police response to a shooting. He might have been better off playing dead than kneeling with his hands in the air.

 

[old lady new shooter]

That is completely immaterial. For all they knew he was a Hamas terrorist. Like it or not the rules are different in war. Hamas is not a uniformed force. I don't know what the ROE the soldiers were operating under and neither do you. It's a common tactic to lure enemy soldiers close by pretending to surrender and then detonating a charge. My son dealt with that in Iraq in 2006. I would say that the chances of a blue on blue incident are orders of magnitude greater in a war like Israel is fighting then in a police response to a shooting. He might have been better off playing dead than kneeling with his hands in the air.

Good point. Especially if it's a suicide bomber.

For the record, I was just responding to Kleanbore, whose post implied that the civilian had a weapon in hand when shot.

 

[Kleanbore]

For the record, I was just responding to Kleanbore, whose post implied that the civilian had a weapon in hand when shot.

I did not.

 

[N555]

He was on his knees with both hands in the air when they shot him.

Oooffff that's a bad look.

 

[hso]

You’ve never responded to a shooting before. It would be very easy to understand if you had.

Yep

Force on force training will also make it quickly clear how difficult it can be to identify attacker from defender in the fractions of a second where you don't start out knowing who the "good guy" is vs. the "bad guy". I've been "shot" in training on more than one occasion by a student because it can be hard to sort attacker from defender.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

That is the chance you take when deciding to intervene armed in an active shooter situation with first responders arriving not knowing you from the bad guy(s).

The guy who intervened may have decided shooting the bad guys early in their attack was worth the risk off being mistaken as an active shooter by responders.

 

[jmorris]

Does this get investigated, or just chalked up to "the fog of war"?

I think it’s just collateral damage, not unlike civilian casualties in Gaza. Happens when you are around dangerous things in the process of being destructed.

Our guys have hit themselves before and unfortunately it will happen again in the future. To err is human…

 

[GBExpat]

For those who may not know, TTP = Tactics, Techniques & Procedures.

 

[lemaymiami]

Gunplay... is dangerous business - any way you look at it... Any time over the years that I responded to a hot call - I always kept reminding myself to "look out for the cops" and I meant it both for when I was driving and when I was on the scene (even though most of the time I was in uniform..).
My agency developed a policy that required any plainclothes officer to put on a raid jacket that clearly identified them as "good guys" whenever they responded to any calls involving weapons - and even then, I know of some situations where the on scene commander ordered any plainclothes officers (or detectives) to stay away until the incident had resolved. To put it mildly, in real life situations, nothing is certain from the initial information you're given all the way down until the situation is over. Many armed confrontations involve foot chases or very quick, spur of the moment re-locations to gain a perceived advantage in tactics. Add to that, the very real possibility in the area I worked that multiple different agencies (city, county, state, federal...) might be on-scene at the same time - not to mention an armed citizen and you simply can' t tell the players without a score card. Heck it might even take a day or two before you have the slightest idea what it was all about... I won't even attempt to discuss "circular firing squad" situations where officers from different directions are firing at the same target and actually sending rounds towards their fellow officers.... who were sending rounds toward them as well. Not a good situation at all (understatement).

All of the above is why you should only use that sidearm you carry as an armed citizen - when you have no other choice, period. And the moment it's not longer needed, holster it or place it on the ground - with your hands in the air - ready to get "roughed and cuffed" by responding officers who will be certain you're part of the problem - not the solution.. until they can sort it out afterwards..

 

[Some_Mook]

I have a buddy who's a LEO and when he's off duty he carries a chrome-plated extremely shiny S&W autoloader and if he ever has to use it when he's off duty he plans to phone in as soon as possible and tell the dispatch that the guy with "shiny gun" is a friendly and for responding officers to please not shoot him. In other words, the threat of a friendly getting shot by a cop dealing with chaos is great enough to have caused an experienced cop to have in place an entire plan designed to hopeully avoid the problem.

Might be a better plan to wear a bright pink beanie, or a big white turkey feather in a hat. Something that could be spotted from a distance while rolling up to the scene, rather than hoping in the confusion and close quarters that responding LEOs will notice a 'shiny gun' through the fog of the adrenaline rush that is absolutely going to be happening when responding to a 'Shots Fired' or any sort of 'Armed Suspect' call.

Many decades ago, in Troy Michigan, the Troy Police were issued Glock 17s. A citizen whose custom van was being repeatedly broken into at night decided that he would camp out in his van to 'catch' the perpetrators. The citizen called the Troy Police department and informed them that HE would be inside his vehicle at HIS address in case anyone called in a concern. Sure enough, a call was placed. Officers Zavislak (sp?) and Woods responded. When they saw the van was occupied by an armed (BB gun, but irrelevant) person who opened a side door and yelled "I got You M-F'ers!", they proceeded to dump their magazines killing the vehicle owner.

Calling ahead and telling a dispatcher what to tell responding officers to look out for is not necessarily going to prevent a tragic outcome. Of course if the citizen had recognized that the persons cautiously approaching his van had been Police Officers. he probably would not have chosen to spring his trap in the manner that he did and there would likely have been a much different outcome.

A few years ago, I had a distraught and disoriented woman walking down the road in front of my house yelling for help. She was carrying a BB gun. I interacted with her, and she agreed that I could call the Sheriff's department to provide her with help. I expressly told the Operator that the woman was carrying a BB gun. Before the Deputies arrived, I was able to convince her to give the BB gun to me, which I placed against the wall of my house separated from her and me by a good 20 feet. When the Deputy arrived I immediately called out to him that she had surrendered the BB gun and indicated to him where it was so that he could see it. This situation ended well for all involved, but things can always go South when the adrenaline is flowing and instant decisions are being made.

 

[scaatylobo]

You may have heard that Hamas perpetrated a terrorist attack in Jerusalem yesterday morning Israel time, killing three innocent civilians at a bus stop before being neutralized by two off-duty soldiers and an armed civilian. Tragically the soldiers then shot the armed civilian, thinking he was a terrorist also. He has now died of his wounds. This is an excellent horrifying example for the cautions we frequently see here about jumping into any kind of mass attack. In this case, the civilian himself had served in the Israeli security services.

I personally don't understand how if they saw him shooting at the terrorists, why they would imagine he was also a terrorist. Does this get investigated, or just chalked up to "the fog of war"?

You can read the news report at https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...dly-fire-during-terror-attack-dies-of-wounds/.

Rest in peace, Yuval Doron Castleman.

Only one who has never taken action that could result in the taking of life would post such as this.

I must guess that you go armed and worry that your "heroic" action will get you lit up.

I carry a arm band that I pray will help me if I actually MUST take action.

The fog of war is a real thing,and "friendly fire" is not friendly = EVER.

I was not there,so I will not judge.

Until you have been under fire,please dont judge others who have.

And yes even after you have seen the eye of that tiger,DO NOT JUDGE.

Lest ye be judged.

 

[wayneinFL]

I think until we start wearing white hats and get the bad guys to wear black hats, there's going to be confusion. If you intervene in anything where a third person can see you, you're taking a chance on getting shot by a cop or another armed citizen. Mitigate the risk by putting your gun away as soon as it's safe to do so.

But as this situation shows, there is always a risk. Assume the risk and intervene, or don't. It's your life.